| Author | Message | ||
     Vegasbueller |
And also on the subject of the countersteer, on experimenting with this some over the last week, it isn't some huge motion and more of a "semi-slight" pressure to the opposite direction while in the lean. Is that correct by what the rest of you do/experience? To the bystander, they would never see it? It is more one of those things that you do by feel and reaction of the bike that is not apparently visible. At least that is how it works for me (so far)  And.. can you find all the books that have been recommended (yes I still have the list) on Amazon? or... where? | ||
| Xb9er |
Yes, by my experience, I would call it a semi-slight pressure at turn-in or when making mid-lean adjustments. I don't think a bystander would see it. Mike | ||
| Mikej |
For books check here: http://www.whitehorsepress.com/ Or at Amazon, or BordersBooks, or any decent stocking bookseller, or maybe with me in a few years if casual thoughts turn into plans and reality. | ||
| Xb9er |
As a kid, I was taught how to ride a bicycle for the first time on a bike without training wheels. Going straight was easy; turning took time and a few crashes to "click". Many, many years after that, I got on a motorcycle and turning it felt completely natural (Doesn't mean I am a good rider, far from it...I suck and still have chicken strips). I don't have a concept of what it's like to Have to Learn what to do to turn a motorcycle. That, and I hated Physics, so I think I need to avoid talking about it for now. It is a sense of, pardon the cliché, "being one" with the motorcycle. Mike. | ||
| Midknyte |
Have read Lee Parks and in retrospect, I like his idea of pushing in on the bar as opposed to pulling on the opposite side. A lot about riding can become phsycological, and it may just be me, but in my mind, pushing in on the bar on the inside of the turn of a countersteer seems like a much more natural implimentation (or safer - see next paragraph) in that in a corrective situation, to decrease the turn and straighten out is to simply relieve the pressure you are applying (or apply more if the opposite) rather than to switch modes and push/pull back. It seems to me, if in a panic situation, the technique of pulling on the opposite [side of the] bar runs counter-intuitive to ones survival instincts (to grab or hold onto something or pull oneselves up) - and could make the situation much worse, at least for someone still learning. Like me... | ||
| M1combat |
Where did Rocket go? Hopefully out riding I guess... | ||
| Rocketman |
Been busy dude - perfecting my counter steer technique! Though I confess my best pulls are always in private  Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
LOL  . | ||
| Littlebuggles |
All this talk about counter steer. The MSF Basic rider course (the old one with a real slide show) had a video that showed a front tire as the rider went into a turn. If you can't get your mind around the concept just have a buddy ride towards you at a moderate pace (12-15mph ish) then turn using pressure on the handle bar. Watch that front wheel. Motorcycles turn by leaning unless at very slow speeds as someone has already stated. You will observe the front wheel briefly go opposite the direction of the turn until the bike drops into the lean. Did someone already say counter steering initiates lean? Thus initiating a turn. This is getting a bit wordy. Anyway it's interesting to watch and will probably answer all your questions. In the classes I have taught people always get wrapped up in the term saying it (counter steering) doesn't make sense, that it's "counter-intuitive". I didn't understand it until I saw it. Push on the inside grip or pull on the outside, either way works. What varies is which is more comfortable to you; it does seem likely however, that pulling the throttle side grip toward you in a panic situation could be problematic... Too much talking, I've got a new ignition module to install  | ||
| Slaughter |
Looks like this got sorta steered into a countersteering thread but... I have a suggestion for those who want to FEEL countersteering at work try this: On a long straight road with no traffic - take your left hand and use it on the throttle. Just put your right hand on your leg. You will lose control UNLESS you consciously countersteer. Give it a shot. | ||
| Lovematt |
Hell I do that left hand on throttle deal a lot to give the right hand a rest and move the fingers around a bit to keep it from getting sleepy. Scares the crap out of the other guys I ride with but then they see I am not weaving all over the place...of course I am dyslexic so it actually works out pretty well. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
A motorcycle stabilizes at speed so unless you are going so fast your bike is unstable you should not have any pull to either side. If your bike is pulling Steve (with one hand on the grip) maybe you should be looking for a reason such as improper loading/weight distribution or mechanical problems such as improper tire balancing, dragging brakes, loose steering head bearings... I don't recommend this, but I have seen a few riders decel without hands and their bike did not swerve to either side. It'll sure give your guts a twist if your bike is not running straight without rider input. | ||
| Sooner |
Lovematt, I was wondering if you are the guy I read about who was both dyslexic and paranoid. He was always afraid that he was following someone.  | ||
| Lovematt |
No...I don't think that's me...you might have that reversed  I may be nuts and dyslexic perhaps but not paranoid. (Message edited by lovematt on October 10, 2004) | ||
| Slaughter |
I was just referring to riding the bike cross-armed at moderate freeway speeds. Sooner or later, you will need to make a small control input OR you can just try weaving slowly (I live in the desert so have hundreds of miles of open roads, YMMV) Properly setup, the bike IS stable in turns and on the straights... it's when you need to change direction or compensate for a change in conditions that you need to make control inputs (a bump, change in road camber, radius, etc) Most of us no longer consciously countersteer above parking lot speeds but it is still a real physical phenomenon. I have tried the left hand on the throttle basically out of boredom on longer rides when I'm just needing to get the blood past my butt and back into my legs. It always struck me as a really good and immediately obvious example of countersteering at work. If you just "hang on" to the throttle, your brain won't naturally tell your hand to countersteer and therefore when you need to make a correction to the bike's path, you cannot do so UNTIL you consciously countersteer. I should say that this is MY brain I'm talking about - a younger brain might be able to process the informantion better but the left hand crossed over to the right side tends to short-circuit the normal reflexes. You can certainly make small corrections with body english but the feedback you get about control inputs is pretty apparent to somebody who doesn't "believe" in countersteering. But yes you are most certainly right - the bike is STABLE in turns and STABLE when rolling upright - it's those pesky changes that I make or the conditions make - that require me to change what I'm doing on the bike at that moment. ...too much time on my hands early Sunday before heading out!! | ||
| Jlnance |
As the one who started this thread, I'd like to say thanks. You all answered my question and I have enjoyed reading the discussion that followed. And I now have Keith Code's book under my bed. I have a couple more beginning rider type questions I would like to ask. Is this thread a good place to post them or is there a more appropriate place on badweb for that? | ||
| Rocketman |
It's Sunday so I decided, in your interests gentlemen, to break the habit of a lifetime and get up early on the sabbath. I fired up the 916 at 9 am and headed north with four other guys. A tuned SV650 and a fightered SV1000, along with a 4 week old Honda VTR1000 SP2/3 and one of the ugliest Blades ever, the 02 model with that awful chisel nosed fairing, their chosen steeds. We took the usual, and well revered route for bikes, up through Bainton, Wetwang, Malton, Pickering, then across the National Park of the North Yorkshire Moors to the fishing port of Whitby, famous for Bram Stokers 'Dracula'. Dracula was shipwrecked off Whitby in case you were interested! This route also passes the controversial US base - Fylingdales, where one of the three 'star wars' radars is situated. So far we've traveled along pretty much deserted two way open roads offering lots of fast sweepers but with a mix of high and low elevation dips and rises, many with blind corners, but better still lots of good vision along certain sections therefore allowing speeds in excess of 140 mph. The next section changes in relief as our route starts to follow the coastal road north from Whitby, heading upto Redcar. On the coast road we are pretty much on the sea front as we pass through several small hamlets. Sands End is first and the road is pretty fast for a handful of miles until Staithes, Capt Cook's birthplace, but as the cliffs rise and rise high above the sea, so do we. As we follow along the cliff tops we are subject to steep up and down hill hairpin bends, narrow tree lined and slippery under the trees tarmac, and gaggles of slow moving traffic that dictates when and when you can't overtake. As we approach the outskirts of Redcar, just south of the industrial wastelands of Middlesborough, the road opens up onto a dual carriageway bypass with lots of roundabouts. We stop on the hard shoulder to the approach of one. Steve reports his back end sliding on the SP2, not liking his dunlop 207 original fits. Bladders relieved, fags smoked and stand-up wheelies performed we now make the short leg across to Stokesly for the highlight of the day. As you peel off the last roundabout and exit Stokesly there's an ominous sign post that greets you, '52 motorcycle casualties in the last 5 years'. This is the road from Stokesly to Helmsley and is know infamously perhaps as the 'Stokesly TT'. It's easy to understand why once you've ridden it. This road is what riding fast motorcycles fast is all about. People travel the length and breadth of England to ride this one road, it's that revered. It perhaps too explains why Helmsley, a sleepy little market town on the south western edge of the Yorkshire Moors, has become such a biking mecca on any given Sunday. The first corner approaches hard fast and right as you leave Stokesly, and that's it, bang, within an instant the relentless pace doesn't stop until you reach the other end some 20 miles or so away. That's of course if you don't want it to stop, but then what would be the point in coming here in the first place? Every corner, sweeper, blind bend, camber, hump back bridge, elevation change, it's all here one after another in quick succession. There's hardly a straight longer than a few hundred meters but you can join up several corners to make a few. At one point, and yes the road swerves left to right along this section, there's a series of 5 humps in a row, each one allowing the bike to get airborne if you're brave enough. The last one is not too far off the corner and you drop down onto it as you approach fast. The corner is sighted so you have to have the line if you want to carry the speed to get airborne and make the corner too. This is 916 territory hands down. Suffice to say this is where I dispensed of the rather quick SV1000, moving into position taking the center of the road ready to take the SV on the outside of the last tight left. Not only did I pass I also ran away with the lead - and it was great arriving in Helmsley's market square with the feeling of winning the Stokesley TT . The 916 is made for this stuff. The faster and harder you push it the more rewarding it becomes. It's easy to see why it's won so many Super Bike titles, and it's a great insight into what the racers are doing out there. Mine's fitted with Pirelli Super Corsa's front and rear and they are both worn to the limit and have been for the past month or so. The front is tread bare about an inch off the center line both sides. No point in changing now though, just in case winter predicts a long lay up. So ok, I'm on the super sticky rubber and the other guys, one reported no confidence in the rear on his SP2, the Blade rider, who'd not ridden the Stokesly TT before and was in awe of it, reported a lack of feel for the front end. The SV1000 I could see where he was struggling, everywhere to outsmart the 916, as I followed him for long enough, but it was only his power that kept him ragged and in front for so long. All in all, top marks today went to me on the 916. Everyone was mightily impressed with the way the 916 shone, especially against bigger more powerful machines. So why have I written up todays two wheeled high horse power plunge into the English countryside you may ask............. Ok, back to the push pull department. There's no way in hell you can ever push the inside bar on a 916 in an effort to counter steer her. It's physically impossible! I've tried and tried and tried and at best if I can exert any force forwards on the inside bar there is NO control to be had as the movement is akin to a quick short sharp and very unsettling movement to the steering. The reason this is so is simply because of the position you are at with the bars. My arms are outstretched to the point of comfort being ok and thus my arms are naturally positioned, without splitting hairs, at about 45 deg diagonal to the world. My palm is sat more to the top of the bar than it is behind it and hanging off doesn't much alter this position. I simply don't have the position or the force available to move the inside bar forwards. If I try, at best I'm pushing straight down to the floor and that's not easy to do either. It takes some force to push on that inside bar even if it's downward only. It just can't be done. Conclusion: Firstly go try doing so on your own rides, then report back here. Secondly you can shove your Lee Parks and Keith Code's up your prevariables too. Oh yeah, burn their books too If you want to induce counter steer you HAVE to be pulling on the outside bar' Rocket | ||
| Ingemar |
Nice story Rocket. I really like stories like that and makes me envy those who can ride their limits. I don't have the guts, maybe after some track courses with which I will start next season. I can't really comment on pushing or pulling either inside or outside bars, but I really gotta disagree on one minor thing you've said .... The Sabbath goes from friday evening till saturday evening sundown. Sunday is sunday, breaking habits or not . | ||
| M1combat |
You're just trolling now Rocket... You can counter steer a bike either way, you just have more control if you are pushing with the inside. I say you've practiced pulling so long it's all you feel comfortable with. | ||
| Rocketman |
Listen dude, I went out and did the research to prove my point, and prove those of you wrong that believe you 'push'. I tried my bloody hardest to push the inside bar and it is NOT possible. Sure, this is on my 916, which is why I ask you or anyone else to try it on their own rides. Seating position, bar height differences etc? Incidentally, I wasn't going to mention it but seeing as you think I'm just trolling I'll take you to task on this comment too. When you are leaned over, the pavement is in effect pulling the inner side of the tire towards the rear of the bike. This makes the bars want to turn into the corner. That's simply not true M1 which clearly indicates you're the one trolling. Nothing of the sort is happening like that. The moment the bike leans the forward motion dictates the bike pivots around the steering head. When leaning the steering goes opposite to the lean. The more you apply counter steer, pull on the opposite bar that is, the bike will lean further, turn tighter, because in effect what you are doing is steering the rear wheel tighter around the steering head. Rocket | ||
| Lovematt |
I guess I should have been more clear about what I meant and what I read. What I read was "push" but the point I was trying to make is while turning...to move the bars towards the direction away from the turn slightly...just a small amount of pressure is all that is needed even in the middle of a turn... | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Well Rocket, it would seem that your steering input requirements will vary depending on your ride. I know the Aprilia RSV I rode a while back didn't require any noticeable input at all on my part, I knew where I wanted to go and the bike just went there. Getting back on my M2 made it very apparent what kind of input I needed to use. | ||
| Blake |
To initiate lean, I can either push on the inside bar or pull on the outside bar or both. It makes zero difference how the torque is applied to the steering head. I usually do both to balance the pushing with the pulling. If I am riding one handed for some reason, I use my throttle hand to push/pull as warranted depending which way the curve/turn goes. | ||
| Rocketman |
just a small amount of pressure is all that is needed even in the middle of a turn... That's the point Lover, there's no way you can do it on a 916. Not even slightly (which is never going to be enough force anyway). That makes me think it's probably not possible on near everything out there where your arm makes a similar angle to the bars as they do when you're on a 916. I'd like to bet that's a lot more bikes than you guys are talking up. Blake, the point is, can you push on the inside bar when you're in the turn? I don't believe YOU can. Take a look at your profile pick big head Look where your left hand is on the bar. You're gonna push down if anything but not forward, but your right arm is perfectly positioned for a pulling movement. You know, this is getting ridiculous. Go and try it if you think you can do it, because thus far you're saying so by what you THINK you are doing. I've tried it so what's stopping you? Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket -- while I wasn't on roads anywhere near as engaging as the ones you described (thanks for the read, btw), I was out yesterday on a leasurly jaunt, and checking the push-me/pull-you thing (thanks to Dr Doolittle), and on my M2, with the lightly wider than normal bars, either way DOES work I've no doubt life is different on a 916 (never ridden one, though I'd love to), but on the MaDeuece, eitgher puching the indside bar or pulling the outside bar works when I got home, I fired up the thumper (very narrow drag bars, just as a data point), just to see, and it did the same, push/pull no never mind | ||
| Midknyte |
These threads are always so much fun to watch. 500 replies on initiating a turn, countersteering, etc. ad naseum... but never a response as to how to come out of a lean and exit a turn. Sort of like the post itself, we keep going in circles.  | ||
| M1combat |
Good point Midknyte . To come out of a turn... simply relieve pressure on the inside bar. On my 12R I can push or pull, but pulling is less stable. I get a bit of a wallow mid corner. I have tried it either way and pulling feels less comfortable to ME. I only assume that pushing is correct becuase EVERY book I've read indicates that pushing is the correct method. | ||
| Aesquire |
push..pull..., depends on bars & body position. You are turning the front wheel out from under the center of gravity. Bike rolls. Then you relax the pressure or steer the front wheel back under to stand up/maintain lean angle/lowside. This is off to the side if you are leaned over in a turn, but the principals are the same. Vector diagrams help. To exit a turn, you steer the wheel under the bike to stand it back up. Correct as needed. My old Yamaha XS750 with a larger than stock rear tire would stand up under power. Ideal line would be a late apex allowing maximum acceleration with the least lean angle? | ||
| Outrider |
From the For What It's Worth Column. Funny thing is, from what I have read about the real old days of motorcycling, countersteering originated as a pull input. The reason being folks were told to lean into the turn and in the process, they unknowingly were pulling on the outside bar. | ||
| Buellnuts |
Threads like these are the reason I dont contribute more. Jeeeeze Bob  |
