| Author | Message | ||
     Nobuell |
I have the throttle body ready to pull on my 08XT to replace the intake seals. I have searched Badweb and found a few posts on intake seals. There seems to be problems with new seals in general. My bike has 40K miles so replacing the seals do not bother me. Not a bad service life considering the design. So here is the dilemma: What seals to use? I have stock seals on the bench and I ordered the two James variations (Blue and wire reinforced). I have read that some folks have had to shorten the throttle body to allow the Blue seals to be used. That is not the direction I would like to go. If the blue seals fit without modification, is the consensus to use the blue seals? Would the James wire reinforced be the second choice over the stock HD units? The other issue is seal lubrication during assembly. Understanding that the seal must allow the throttle body to slide on the seal slightly to accommodate thermal cycling, what lubrication should be used? Some have used hylomar blue and others recommended a silicone grease. The Hylomar is non setting, so it would seem like the proper application. I have access to industrial grade Dow High vacuum silicone grease with a very high temperature rating. Perhaps the Silicone High vacuum grease will be a good application. Does anybody know what the temperature is at the seal location during operation and after shutdown? What are the thoughts out there? I would like to do this one time and I am looking for current information on the issue. Thanks for the help. | ||
| Etennuly |
I changed mine at about the same mileage. I was chasing another problem that pointed to the seals being a potential issue. I used the stock HD replacements. They seemed to fit in the bores to where the rubber does the work it should, so I used vasoline as lubrication so they would slide in smoothly and did not worry about a filling or adhesive type sealer. It has been working well for another twenty thousand miles so far. I cleaned a larger than I had expected deposit of carbon out of the bottom of the intake runners. Just so you know the engine does not need rotated, but a modified (shortened) wrench will be needed for the left side bolt. I did mine in a couple of hours at my son's house seven hundred miles from home.(I was laughing as I cut one of his wrenches off  while he was out of sight, thinking about all of my tools he broke or lost over the years! ) | ||
| Djohnk |
twin motorcycles new flange/seal prototype | ||
| Nobuell |
Etennuly, I had everything ready for disassembly up the point of removing the support torx screw. I could not find a combination that would work. Had to run out a pick up a different torx wrench. The 1/2" flange bolts turned out to be somewhat simple. I had a number of odd shaped wrenches that worked fine. I never figured the support screw would be the problem. Go figure. Djohnk, I saw the Twin design. It is very similar to our standard design for dynamic hydraulic components we manufacture at my company. The problem is availability, I need to get the bike up and running in the next couple weeks. I have not heard of an ETA for availability. | ||
| Nobuell |
I contacted the technical department at James Gasket. They recommend the use of the metal reinforced seal for the Buell. It is actually an improved version of the blue one. A concern that I had was the online recommendations to use lubricant when assembling. I read everything from WD40 to Sil Guard. Based on my experience with various types of o-ring materials, some types of lubricant can damage the rubber portion of the seal. For instance, if the seal uses high temperature silicone rubber, Silicone based lubricants will likely degrade the rubber depending on the environment. At work, we use Silicone rubber o-rings and seals in special equipment that we design and build. We do not assemble using Silicone compounds for that application. James identified that the seal material is a proprietary FKM rubber (Fluorocarbon). This material has good resistance to mineral oils and silicone assembly compounds are not a problem. WD40 referenced online should not degrade the rubber. I believe based on the conversation, I will use the metal reinforced James seal. I plan to use Dow Corning High Vacuum grease. This grease does not melt and has a operating temperature rating higher than the FKM used in the seal. The High Vacuum grease will hopefully help mitigate leakage as a secondary measure and also facilitate the seal sliding on the TB nipple during the thermal excursions. I have not seen any information on the operating temperatures in the seal area. Perhaps somebody has some information on this. I would be interested from an application standpoint. | ||
| Bpt |
I just replaced the intake seals on my 08 while doing my 30K. I did it as preventative repair, not that I had issues. The stock seals looked excellent and I used H-D stock seals as replacements. I did not use anything on the seals for lubrication. I remember an old master tech telling not to lube them. Compared to doing intake seals on my S3 this was a piece of cake. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
I've used SylGlyde on the intake seals for years. I've never had one leak. My S2 has probably 35K on the last set. I've done MANY over the years, the SylGlyde extends their life and make installation much easier. I use the stock seals in all instances. | ||
| Sharkguy |
I remember hearing to not use silicone on an intake as it can affect oxygen sensors. I don't know if this is true. Perhaps others can enlighten on this. I know I have seen some silicone products labeled as O2 sensor safe. | ||
| General_ulysses |
I think the high temp silicone vacuum grease sounds about perfect. I would just take care to use only the amount needed with no sloppy excess. That way, in the event it is bad for O2 sensors, risk is minimized. My $0.02 anyway. | ||
| Nobuell |
I think the key is to use the material sparingly. The SilGlyde referenced above is a silicone blend. I have an EBR Race ECM. Does it use the O2 sensor? | ||
| Uly_man |
"I have an EBR Race ECM. Does it use the O2 sensor?" Yes it does. "hylomar blue" is a gasket sealer NOT a "O ring" lube. WD-40. NO. The easy answer to all of this is to use the lube the "O ring" maker states. And since you got 40k out of the old ones what make you think another 40k is a problem using the OEM parts. Also are you sure they are leaking. | ||
| Nobuell |
Uly man I don't recall anyone saying the Hylomar Blue was an o-ring lub. I did reference that I read some folks have used the product to resolve leakage issues. Since it is non-setting, it should not impact the seal during thermal cycling. WD-40 was actually one of the recommendations from James. I would not use it myself, but it should not attack the James seal should one decide to use it. There are lots of different o-ring lubs. that are referenced by the manufactures based on material type, environmental conditions and exposure to other mediums. Picking the right one is the trick. Leakage was verified using the propane method. Not using the stock ones are based on the problems I have heard or read about. Just hoping to eliminate problems and not have to disassemble again. | ||
| Firemanjim |
You will never not have to change these as they are a service item like spark plugs and belts. They last for a amount of time depending on use and then need replacing. Even the james will do the same after enough heat cycles. | ||
| Tootal |
I started using the James black ones with the steel ring inside. I use Dow Corning 111. http://www.amazon.com/Dow-Corning-Valve-Lube-Seala nt/dp/B000LDLGEU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366331586 &sr=8-1&keywords=dow+corning+111 I use this stuff on gaskets too. No leaks and when you need to remove them they peel right off. It is an o-ring lubricant and sealant. It does not harden. | ||
| 99savage |
Never replaced an intake seal but the safe lubricant to use with all elastomers is dish detergent. - Heap plenty slippery, does not damage any elastomer that I am aware of & easy clean up. Used it for most everything including pulling a car sideways. Silicone safe in most cases but impossible to remove. | ||
| Tootal |
Djohnk, those look oddly familiar! I made some experimental ones a couple of years ago but they didn't work. However, I was testing them on a Harley and I later figured out the aftermarket air cleaner was machined wrong. The mounting holes were .100" offset and was causing side pressure on the seals! Now that I have that figured out I need to try these again!  | ||
| Chorizo |
+1 on changing intake seals. My idle fluctuated 500 rpm. I did it without engine rotation. Next time Ill be rotating. It will take more time but easier to see what your doing. | ||
| Uly_man |
The O ring lub is just for fitting the ring to stop it binding/twisting on fitting. Any O ring will break down in time and need to be replaced. The heat makes them go hard but also shrinks them as well so any extra "gap type" filler will still let air past the O ring anyway. For this the filler would have to expand and contract to counter this which it can not do. At 40k I think the bike has done VERY well and do not think you would better it much not using OEM parts/fitting. But thats up to, of course, the person and there bike as to what they want. | ||
| Nobuell |
I pulled the Throttle body off. It was not to bad. To do it again, with the tools I modified would be a breeze. The old seals were actually in very good shape. They were still very flexible. They exhibited only a hint of compression setting on the face. The rear cylinder had a slight indication of leakage at the bottom. That is the location the propane indicated. As previously mentioned, I procured both James type seals and the stock HD. I could not get the throttle body inserted fully with the James seal because of the additional lip. I pushed and pulled, tried to pry, everything I could think of for a couple hours. Finally, I lubed up the stock HD seals and it fit together perfectly. Considering how good the old seals looked at 42K miles and comments from other on this site, I figured why not. Worked for 42K miles before. Now the problem, I started this process to resolve my Idling issue. When cold it starts normally and high idles like it should. Then prior to warming up ( 1 or 2 minuets) it tries to stall as if the idle RPM is set to low. I can crack the throttle slightly to maintain a high idle until it warms up and then it will idle and run like normal. The seal replacement did not fix the problem. It now passes the propane test but still has the idle issue. I purchased a new IAS and Head temperature sensor to replace while it was apart. The resistance of the old and new units were similar and within specification. Replacing made no difference. Before replacing the intake seals, I removed the IAC and cleaned the idle orifices. I cleaned the bore and butterfly while it was off of the bike for the seal replacement. I did notice that unplugging the IAC made no difference on the idle speed when hot or cold. I also noticed that when the IAC does the initial positioning before starting. It makes the normal stepper motor sound then a slight crunching sound. I do not know if this is normal. Trouble shooting the IAC in accordance with the manual requires some special indicators that I cannot do at home. Any thoughts out there? It almost sounds like the IAC is not positioning correctly. I would like to get some comments before buying a new one. One other note. I disassembled all related electrical connectors and cleaned. I have a race ECM that is mounted in a nice soft rubber cushioned location. Pushing on the ECM connectors had no affect and there is no indication of cracking. Thanks for the help | ||
| Danair |
Parker O-Lube, by the people that make o-rings. Used on every type app on an aircraft. I can send you a smidge. | ||
| Nobuell |
Danair, we use it here at work as well. I opted to use Dow high vacuum grease. It is a non melting silicone design for high temp applications. We use the dow product on many of our nuclear products. The Parker lube is good stuff as well. | ||
| Uly_dude |
Hey Nobuell, did your idling problems show up about the time you swapped out the ECM? If so, you may want to try the OEM ECM to see if it gets better. Or just swap it out anyways temporarily. Easy enough to do. I've seen people out here get an EBR ECM that had to go back for reprogramming because of squirrely problems like yours. Just sayin. | ||
| Nobuell |
Uly dude - The EBR ECM has been in the bike for quite awhile before the problem showed up. However, it would only take a minuet to switch and rule out the EBR ECM. Thank you for the suggestion. | ||
| Uly_man |
Nobuell. Good job. "I did notice that unplugging the IAC made no difference on the idle speed when hot or cold. I also noticed that when the IAC does the initial positioning before starting. It makes the normal stepper motor sound then a slight crunching sound. I do not know if this is normal.". I do not think it should make that sort of sound. The idle has many things that effect it. One is fuel and should be rich (choke) for starting. It may be set low on the EBR ECM but this can be checked with TunerPro or other tool and if is easy changed. Has it always done the same thing with the EBR ECM? | ||
| Uly_man |
Ok so not that. Yes change the ECM but remember to do the TPS reset after to zero it. Good luck. (Message edited by Uly_man on April 23, 2013) | ||
| Nobuell |
Uly man - I will switch it out tonight after work and see if it makes a difference. If not, I will just have to break down and buy a new IAC. Thank you for your help! | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Mark, he shouldn't have to do a TPS reset if it's the original ECM, it already knows where "zero" is. The TPS shouldn't have changed unless that is part of the problem. | ||
| Djohnk |
Tootal, by all means give it another try! While you have the machine set up make two sets, I will purchase the extra set from you. I know it would be a good solution, your upgraded TB shaft worked great for me. | ||
| Nobuell |
I did not have time until this past weekend to swap back to the OEM ECM. It did not correct the problem. It sounds like the IAC may be the issue. Any other ideas out there before I spend the bucks for a new one? | ||
| Uly_man |
"Mark, he shouldn't have to do a TPS reset if it's the original ECM, it already knows where "zero" is. The TPS shouldn't have changed unless that is part of the problem." He would need to do a TPS reset because He did, or should have, done one for the other ECM He changed out so the TPS would no longer be in the same position. Its always best to do one anyway as its the "base" point for the ECM. Hard to say at this point as it may need a more "hands on" work. Check the IAC again. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Sorry, I missed that part about already changing out the TPS. Yup, a reset is needed... (Message edited by bluzm2 on May 02, 2013) |
