| Author | Message | ||
     Mrsnuggles |
I've noticed a ~10% drop in range/fuel economy on all of my vehicles recently (not just the buell), and found out that (seemingly) all of Austin's fuel stations have switched to 10% ethanol blends. I'm used to getting 45-50 mpg, but now I can't get over 40 mpg, no matter how easy I am on the throttle. Has anyone else noticed this? Does anyone know if there are any ethanol free stations in Central Texas? | ||
| Etennuly |
Yeah, this has been my bitch about the ethanol enhanced gasoline from the start. What benefit is putting alcohol in there at at a 10% mix ratio, if you get 10% less gas mileage?? It seems to me that they found a way to water it down that doesn't affect the running of the vehicle. The big kicker is some places charge more for this benefit!  I guess we, the timid consumers with smiles on our faces, continue getting ours in the end! | ||
| Buewulf |
I noticed then same thing when I moved to Texas (Houston area) - roughly a 10% drop in all of my vehicles. I have taken long road trips through other states where non-ethanol gas was available, and the fuel economy improved accordingly with those tanks. | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Mrsnuggles: I did some brief snooping on this and I can't find any recent and reliable info on gas stations around Austin that may be selling "clean" or ethanol-free gas. Try posting a question about it on a forum like gasbuddy.com. You should have better luck there. | ||
| Froggy |
I get 65mpg on 10% ethanol, I would love a few tanks of straight gas just for experimentation purposes. All of my Buell's run fine on E10.
The benefit is that it produces lower emissions, and it causes less damage to the environment should it leak. There is no down side other than a slight fuel economy drop due to its slightly lower energy content. Mrsnuggles, about this time of year many areas switch over to a winter blend of fuel, which has even lower fuel economy. It is possible that they switched in your area too. My Blast is only returning about 70-75mpg on the winterized E10 blend, instead of the normal 80-85. | ||
| Mideon |
It's part of the "Green" movement. I know Houston, Austin, DFW Metroplex and even here in Saint Louis it's required till we get out of the surrounding counties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_U nited_States | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Another advantage of 10% ethanol is that it helps the farmers here in the midwest states that produce corn. My ULY always runs on gasahol and has always run great. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Froggy said "The benefit is that it produces lower emissions, and it causes less damage to the environment should it leak. There is no down side other than a slight fuel economy drop due to its slightly lower energy content." By less damage I assume your talking about ethanol laced gas, vs MTBE (also known as the worst environmental nightmare since DDT)? There are many downsides, such as your tax dollars subsidizing the corn crops. It's pure political pork. The energy (petroleum) required in growing/fertilizing/managing the production of ethanol is probably a net loss overall. TANSTAAFL | ||
| Wheelybueller |
Maine is now drinking the "supplement corn industries income ethanol flavored KOOL-AID" Runs poor,poor fuel mileage,eats old tanks and damages older fuel systems...MMM GOOD  | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
if you have access to a military base, that's always a good bet for ethanol-free gas. I think the Buells run best on petroleum products so I'll just keep supporting farmers by eating corn, not burning it  | ||
| Swimmonkey |
Green Movement my ASS. This has everything to do with agricultural subsidies under the guise of doing something for the "environment". The damage done by growing genetically engineered corn does far more damage than burning gasoline without 10% ethanol. The midwest farmers "Electroglider" claims are being helped are, in reality, turning their land into a toxic waste dump. I can only hope and pray that the world continues to wake up and that the Al Gore's of the world fall off into the abyss with the Bernie Madoff's of the world. Mrsnuggles, I too live in Austin and have found that the Valero stations have ethanol-free gas at many of their stores. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep!
There is political pork in everything, especially in our area. Any taxes on us due to the subsidies are a drop in a bucket compared to our property taxes.
Thats debatable, as the ethanol comes from many sources and areas, and some are obtained more efficiently than others.
No issues with anything I have ran.
I didn't realize 5mpg less on a 80mpg+ vehicle was poor.
I know I will get shot for this, but get that old crap off the road. Anyway modern fuel lines such will handle the ethanol abuse, so it is worth it to upgrade your classic vehicles fuel system. Tanks can be treated with special liners too.
The corn used in ethanol isn't edible anyway.  The overproduction of any crop can ruin land. It is nothing new. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Froggy, getting the old crap off the road requires new crap to drive. New crap requires ridiculous amounts of energy to produce. The most fuel efficient car on the road is the one you are driving at that moment. As far as pork and school taxes, you can eat corn, but you can't eat schools. | ||
| Nadz |
if you have access to a military base, that's always a good bet for ethanol-free gas. Sorry: Ft. Drum NY (for one) has gone environmental wacko. My bikes know the difference, it's as obvious as putting in 87 instead of 93. I go out of my way to find three-hose pumps so I don't get a hoseful of 87, and now I look for ethanol-free pumps as well. Hmmm- let's check the math. If 10%-ethanol gas results in 10% less mileage, doesn't that mean the ethanol is doing nothing? Wups, just thinking instead of drinking (the kool-aid). -Nadz | ||
| Froggy |
Johnnylunchbox, yes new stuff requires a ton of energy, but you also have to factor cost of operation, fuel economy, emissions and many other factors. Other than for the nostalgic value, there is no reason to operate a really old vehicle. That is typically why they don't see the road much anymore other than for the occasional Sunday drive or car show. You can't eat the corn used for ethanol, well at least you wouldn't want to. Nadz, it has been proven that the multi hose thing is bunk. The hose contains approx. 7.85 cubic inches of gas, assuming a worst case scenario and it wasn't slowly siphoned back into the tank. One gallon is 231 cubic inches, so 231 divided by 7.85 equals .34 gallons. On a 3.5 gallon fillup, that would be only 8.6% dilution. Your actual octane rating would be 92.1. I recall Ft_bsrd emailing a pump manufacturer and getting similar numbers. | ||
| Nadz |
Check decimal: (78.5in^3) / (231in^3/gal) = .34gal . Vol = Length * Pi * Radius^2. Let's take L to be 120in (10ft of hose). Then 78.5in^3 = (120in)(3.14etc)(radius)^2, works out to about .90in I.D. of the hose. I suppose I can buy that. But there's usually a pretty good sized pipe going up to the coupling (1in I.D. x 36in I'd guess), and I-don't-know how much volume due to valving, pump, and flow meter within the mechanism itself. All I know is that the bike ran great today on pure 93, but was less fun yesterday on 93-ish. And that's the way it usually is, same story for ethanol. No offense to Froggy and Fatty, but seat-of-the-pants dyno sez I'll stick to my superstitions and try to get the good stuff! -NadZ PS- sorry for the thread-jack, been wondering about this for a while. links? | ||
| Etennuly |
The BIG picture Ethanol program is about finding a way to lower dependency on foreign oil. But this program is totally stupid as there is no gain in the use of the alcohol due to the loss of gas mileage. There is an actual loss of consumer investment in a gallon of gasohol. Big Pork money movement at the expense of the consumer, again. Froggy, do you really believe that if you spill 30 gallons of E-gas in a ditch during an accident, that the worms, bugs, and grass that are killed will notice the 10% reduction of gasoline chemicals, there-by being relieved that some alcohol, that will kill them anyway, was in the mix? Sure the alcohol may dissipate, and have 10% less residual gasoline toxins reaching the aquifer, but the ethanol has a bit of a toxic effect in itself. As far as the corn being used.....wasn't that another giant pork expense to develop? I read somewhere that corn liquor like grandpa used to make works the same. Most of the reason for developing the "new" hy-bred corn is to make it un-consumable to humans. Really, you cannot be licensing farmers to produce millions of gallons of corn liquor and have all of that out in consumer land! | ||
| Froggy |
Nadz, took me a while to find it, but here it is: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/496 363/337756.html Oh, and your butt dyno is overdue for a recalibration Etennuly, yes part of the reason for the E10 is for foreign oil reduction. But still that is only a minor part of the program, as that has its flaws too. The energy content of E10 is only 6% less than E0, so you should only see a 6% drop in fuel economy. Any other losses are due to something else. A 30mpg car would get 28.2mpg, 60mpg would get 56.4mpg. So my Blast getting 85mpg on E10 would in theory get 90.1mpg on straight gas. The concern over the MTBE was mainly for the water shed. Older fuel tanks can leak causing soil and water contamination. It is really nasty stuff and was only used to boost octane ratings. It is only logical to replace the MTBE with Ethanol for not only its superior octane boosting capability, but because it won't harm the environment. The other 90% of the mix will still do damage, but it is the lesser of the two evils. Also everyone is getting hung up on corn being used. It doesn't have to be made from corn, but it is cheap and abundant. Ethanol can be made from waste beer, algae, and pretty much anything that grows. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Actually the same type of corn that is used to make ethanol is used to make corn syrup which is in practically everything these days. Also look here http://www.kycorn.org/kycgaprojects/newuses/cornpr oductsguide.htm#pop Corn is used for a myriad of food products http://www.cornproductsus.com/products/food-ingred ients/ Ethanol is an oxygenator that replaced the MTBE which was bad stuff that got in our water tables. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_tert-butyl_eth er | ||
| Buewulf |
Ethanol better for the environment? Ethanol produced from corn in the US cost considerably more in $ and environmental impacts including fossil fuel use, ag chemicals, greenhouse, toxic and particulate emissions (especially if energy needs are provided by coal-fired plants), and water consumption requirements than producing gasoline. It currently takes 1 BTU of fossil fuels to produce 1 BTU equivalent of ethanol in most cases. Even with the most efficient processes, ethanol only gives you a 25% return on the energy required to produce it. Stock from sugarcane is much better, though. Don't have any stats in front of me, but it's probably around 50%. But that's not how we roll in the US. Gasoline yields 94% by comparison. Plus you can't ship it by pipeline. It must be trucked. E10 should theoretically only reduce power/economy by 3.2%. Ethanol contains 34% less energy than gasoline. E10 also deteriorates pretty quickly, noticeably so within 7 - 14 days. Average real world reduction in economy is around 8%, the reason for which hasn't been fully explained yet. Burning (perfectly) a gram of Ethanol produces 1.9 gram of CO2. Gram of gasoline yields almost 3.17 grams of CO2. But since you only need 66% of the gas required to do the work of 1 unit of ethanol, they are just about even (3.17*.66=2.1). That's before you even take production into account. Ethanol use also increases VOC and NOx emissions. California requested an exemption (which was denied) from the ethanol mandates if that is any indication as to whether or not it has a positive environmental effect. Dependence on foreign oil? Initial studies indicate that E10 raises demand for gasoline in the US, by about 2% in regions that use it exclusively. It still requires further study, though those of us who track this stuff already suspected this to be the case. Subsidizing farmers? Don't mind helping farmers out, but the real human cost is the huge fresh water consumption by crops and driving food prices up around the world. No effect on your bike? Most of us will notice. Froggy doesn't notice a difference in the running of his bike from running E10, but anyone who has the discipline to get 65mpg wouldn't twist the throttle enough to notice if he was running on E85.  | ||
| Etennuly |
A local farmer was interviewed tonight on the local news. He has changed his farm crops to Switch Grass. They are using it to produce alcohol for fuel. Here is how it has affected farming in this area(and it is just starting). This farmer had been growing alfalfa, hay, straw, and other crops mostly for livestock(food chain stuff). He did 80 acres of switch grass early in the season, added 300 more acres for the late season, and expects to do 800 more acres by next spring. Now the demand for the price of the livestock feed will be going up as other farmers catch on to the Switch Grass. Sounds like we will be paying for that in grocery stores by way of higher meat prices. Go ahead, hold out by being a vegetarian.....who will grow those crops(including okra) when they have all switched to the Switch Grass for the money? I believe he said it pays nearly eight times as much as live stock crops. Funny thing about alcohol. When I worked on race cars in my youth, we had gas carburetors and gas tanks, and we had alcohol carburetors with special gaskets and oversize fueling ports and alcohol fuel tanks that were double the capacity. The big gain from that alcohol use was that the engines run much cooler so they could run harder longer, but used twice as much fuel volume doing it. | ||
| Wheelybueller |
I want my J.D. clean,you guys can mix it 10% if you want to. | ||
| Gsilvernale |
Ethanol is not good for carburators. Its a gummy mess and if you let a bike sit for more than a month with Ethanol in it, it will start to cause problems. $300 today to get a carb cleaned (on a Honda Shadow 750). |
