| Author | Message | ||
     Chadhargis |
Actually, every test ride I ever took at Bumpus was unescorted, yet I know Fatty B escorts a bunch of folks on rides. I must look honest.  | ||
| Technomad |
I've got a deposit on an XB12Ss with Joules' shop. If more HD dealers were like this, I'm sure the MoCo would've been many more Buell sales and perhaps not made the decision to discontinue the product line. I probably would've waited until spring to decide on a new bike, but events forced my hand. I'm buying now because 1) new Buells probably won't be available then; 2) the good deals. It seems that the MoCo has been good to Buell for the most part, but never managed to transfer their marketing success with traditional Harleys to Buells. Dealers like Joules are exceptions that highlight how clueless most HD dealers have been. | ||
| M2nc |
Selling a Buell motorcycle in a Harley dealership is like selling a Rolex out of the trunk of your car. No matter how much you try to convenience someone it is a top notch watch, due to the environment, no one is going to believe you. Non-traditional Harley customers looking for a performance motorcycle are not going to look at a dealership that sells fashion over function. This is the main problem with selling Buells in a Harley dealership. A Buell is a top notch performance motorcycle with innovative features. The last place someone looking for a bike like that will be at a dealership that sells motorcycles focused in the past. Where the average customer truly believes that lowering the motorcycle and reducing suspension travel will improve handling. Where the average sales man does not know the difference between rebound and compression. The best motorcycle dealer around here is the Big Four dealer down the road. They have all kinds of motorcycles and scooters from 50cc to 2000cc. They even have an American made chopper franchise. They have quality riding gear, trailers, and in the winter sell 4-wheelers. I do buy my tires on line by the way, from them. Instead of complaining about the market, they are conquering it. I also buy most of my riding gear from them, why not they have Arai, Nolans, Shoei, Scorpion, First Gear, etc. I know without a doubt that a Buell in the middle of that sales floor would have sold a lot better than the local HD dealership that gave up years ago. Don't take my word for it, just read the web chatter from those potential new Buell customers. The repulsed reaction to either having been or having to go into a Harley dealership to look at a Buell can be found at any non-Buell or Harley forum. I wish Buell had a dollar every time I heard or read, "I'd look at Buell if I did not have to go into a Harley dealership." I paraphrase because I do not believe those comments were that clean or kind. The Uly especially drew from a much bigger crowd of Harley despisers than Harley attractors. Then add to the fact the number of Harley attractors replacing their large chrome couches for Ulys, made the situation even worse for both Buell and Harley. I am in a large crowd that believes that Buell would have done better if they were sold by independent dealers not affiliated with Harley. Yes there are a few HD dealerships around the country that were really doing the right things. Unfortunately there were out number ten to one with the Harley dealerships that would just reinforce the anti-Harley mind set. | ||
| Xbrad9r |
M2nc +1 very well said | ||
| Cyclonedon |
M2nc, nice write up and I agree with what you said. I once rode my Buell M2 Cyclone into a local Harley dealer wearing my Buell Jacket and Buell hat. I proceeded to go inside and was sitting on a Buell when a salesman came up and asked me what kind of motorcycle I was riding. There was only a couple of motorcycles in the lot at the time, anyway I told him I rode a Buell. His comment to me was that most Buell riders were trading up to the Dyna's to which I came back with "I guess I'm not like most Buell riders then". He just walked away and left me alone then. Some salesmen get it and then others don't! | ||
| Rsrss |
My wife and I both have and ride Buells. I also work at an H-D dealership that used to sell Buells. I ride 35 miles to the shop. When I started there one of the old employees asked how I could stand to ride one of those "little bikes" that far. The only perception of Buell she had was of the Blast and had never seen a Uly. My Uly is parked in the employee parking spaces far more often than any of the Harley models. I here time and again how the best day several of our local H-D deals had was the day they dropped the Buell line. There did not appear to be any desire to understand let alone sell Buells. Just seem that the Buell product was a way to increase the H-D brand allocation with little interest in selling the Buell. Sorry just needed to vent a little. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Hopefully Barker will pop on here and tell his story of how he was once asked about his XB9R. Guy said, "Do you ride that on the interstate?" | ||
| Fmaxwell |
"So what motivation do dealers have to inventory parts when they make little to no profit on them due to competition from internet sales which give you no support?" Simple: To sell bikes. No parts, no clothes, no accessories says to the consumer that, come Saturday, he may not be able to ride if he needs a part for his Buell. WTF did Harley think would happen when they tried to get younger customers in with the Buell brand? That some 23 year old Buell customer who finances a $10K bike would have the kind of disposable income for parts, apparel, and accessories that the 48 year old Harley customer has? That they could just buy everything with their American Express Platinum card and not try to shop prices? | ||
| J2blue |
Fred, to answer your question, it seems as though HD Financial did think they could lend money to a 23 year old to purchase a $20K bike and $5K in junk. Some of those kids probably didn't care about the chrome couches and turned around and sold them for dope, or maybe a Ducati. That's how HD Financial ended up losing 180 megabucks. | ||
| Uncleron |
I think the blame has to be placed squarely on HD 'management' for their absolute failure to effectively market anything other than overweight big twin garbage wagons and t-shirts. Blame can also be placed on the dealers who have little to no interest in Buell. I usually buy Buell parts and accessories on the internet because my local dealer has little to no Buell inventory, and does not even seem to know anything about Buell bikes. A couple of months ago, I went to my local dealer to buy some parts for my Uly, the parts person did not know what a Uly is, did not know what an XB12X is, and was fumbling around in a Blast catalog in spite of the fact that I provided him with the part numbers. When he could not manage to find the parts, he said they would call me so I could place an order. After I did not receive a call, I went online and ordered my parts; the local dealer has still not called me back. If my local dealer was more interested in selling and servicing Buells, I would spend more money there. If my local dealer sponsored a Buell club, I would spend more time there. If HD put in the effort to appeal to sport riders and adventure riders, they might be in better shape than they are now. If 'American motorcycles' can only be overweight, overpriced, and underpowered then I will have to look to imports in the future. Maybe a Guzzi, BMW, or Yamaha will replace my HD in the garage next to my Buells. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Technomad, Thanks for the nice words. It is bitter sweet that we are making so many good friends & customers in the last two weeks by selling the last of the great current Buell products. I ordered more new ones again today hoping to get confirmation on availability Monday. In the mean time your XB12SS arrived today so you ought to be able to pick it up any day after Tuesday. I'll e.mail you on feedback so far on your trade. ~jammer | ||
| Jammin_joules |
MSnc wrote: " ..The last place someone looking for a bike like that will be at a dealership that sells motorcycles focused in the past. I have not had any trouble but apparently four of my local Colorado and Wyoming competitors did. In the last two years they dropped the line and we picked up where they were deficient. We have no trouble selling bikes that we race competitively and sponsor for some of our customers. Several of us own them, and Harleys. I have 20,000 miles on a mid-2007 Ulysses and 4,000 miles on an August purchased FLH touring bike. Each have their place. But let me be clear - If I had to get rid of all my motorcycles but one it is my Ulysses, Joules, that I would keep. Now down south there was a dealership that sold Buells along with BMW and I believe Ducati. I am told by some of my customers who live there that you could not get a salesman there to help you with Buells for their focus was on the imports with their higher commissions. My customers would rather ride 110 miles north, past two other Buell dealerships in Denver as well, and buy from High Country Buell/H-D. You see, what I have learned; it is not the building, it is not the amount of fashion or function wear on the racks, it is not the other brands or models in the next aisle - no, it is none of that. It is the passion, the effort, it is the sincerity and respect for the brand and the customer that sells motorcycles. I have owned Harley m/c's since 1983 and only in the last couple years a Buell but I have no trouble being passionate and successful selling both of them. And I know of several other Harley & Buell sales people in this state and on these boards that will tell you the same. We do it every day. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. So although I respect your opinion, I respectfully decline to accept your conclusion and I have the successes to prove it. ~jammer PS. Don't take my word for it. Go to the Sponsor section and click on High Country and read some of my customers testimonials.} | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Where the average customer truly believes that lowering the motorcycle and reducing suspension travel will improve handling. Where the average sales man does not know the difference between rebound and compression. Tell that to two Buell purchasers this week that are going to Davey Durelle's to get their Lightnings lowered - not so they improve performance, but so they can safely ride them. Not everyone is 6 foot tall. Davey is an AMA GNC Dirt Track rider of some renoun but more so he holds the record on the Pikes Peak International Hillclimb for a motorcycle and has won his class some 13 straight years. He is also maybe 5' 5" and lowers his bikes considerably. I think he understands compression and rebound and dampening and preload. So do our four racers, all of which lowered the 1125's and XB12s they race. Come on out to IMI or High Plains Raceway and we'll gladly talk suspension with you after first giving you a chance to shoe that you can lap me. You see, all of my sales team, my ops mgr, and the two dealer principles have taken road course training at Vegas Motor Speedway or Miller Motorsport track with such notable instructors as the Freddie Spencer Race School. If your Buell sales people are not so trained, maybe you bought from the wrong dealer. I hope you saved money, because you didn't get everything you could have for your money. In the meantime, two types of Harley buyers I know lower their rides: short people and custom builders. All of them know full well that ride quality is compromised. I find your generalizations inaccurate and inflammatory towards legions of riders who do not judge you for how and what you ride. This attitude is often representative of a customer walking in a Harely/Buell dealership with a chip on his shoulder so large, he can't see the support and appreciation a sales person has to offer. If it bothers you that your Icon jacket, Joe Rocket riding pants and Scorpion helmet stand out at the Harley dealer, I would hope that it is only you that it bothers, not the other riders there, not the dealership people there either. At least at High Country Buell/H-D, I guarantee that is the case. | ||
| 4cammer |
Jammin_joules- "If your Buell sales people are not so trained, maybe you bought from the wrong dealer. I hope you saved money, because you didn't get everything you could have for your money." Jammin, I think you have to realize that you may be the exception and not even close to being the rule. Not all of us Buell consumers have the luxury to have a decent (let alone GREAT) dealer to purchase a Buell from. I know that I did not when I was looking for a 9R three years ago. and you go on..."If it bothers you that your Icon jacket, Joe Rocket riding pants and Scorpion helmet stand out at the Harley dealer, I would hope that it is only you that it bothers, not the other riders there, not the dealership people there either. At least at High Country Buell/H-D, I guarantee that is the case." It would be easier to remember the times I did not get a smirk, or a laugh, or an outright "do you really need all that sh@t" from patrons and employees of my purchasing dealer (and surrounding dealers) when arriving there on my bike. With my nondescript Vanson Jacket, Cortech leather lined jeans, leather FS boots and low key Shoei lid. Amazing how that changed when I came there in my cage...my goatee and bald head then fit in quite well. All I needed were some tats... And I am not one that has any kind of chip, just the realization that I purchased the right bike from the wrong dealer network. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I just read the article in Sportrider. CR versus Ducati Streetfighter. Buell came out on top again. Harley management really has no idea what they have done. | ||
| M2nc |
Jammin, I can throw out exceptions as well as anyone. Ray Price is a great Buell dealer whose grandson just won three 2009 amateur national championships (CCS Thunderbike, CCS Super Twins, CCS Heavy Superbike) aboard both the 1125R and Firebolt. But you are missing the forest for the trees if you think that is the rule. The nearest HD dealer to me is just 10 miles up the road and a former Buell dealer. The owner's daughter openly cussed Buells in the middle of the sales floor, called them pieces of junk and wannabes Harleys. Just forty miles to the southeast I stopped in an HD dealership to buy oil and trans fluid. The staff stopped me at the door and said, "We don't sell Buells here." Fifty miles to the west there is a Buell dealer that I bought my Buell from. Slowly but surely the few believers left and no one on the sales staff knows anything about the brand. Now if I walk in the store they try and recruit me if someone asks about a Buell. So now we travel eighty miles to Ray Price the only good Buell dealership around even though there are about ten HD dealerships as close if not closer. Harley riders around here believe a lower bike improves handling. They pride themselves on lowering bikes to the point that 20 degrees of lean can cause dragging parts. If your friend wants to run that up Pike's Peak I would love to see it for comedic value. But like I said, I can find the exception like anyone. A friend of mine on an '04 Sportster Custom changed the 21" front wheel to a 19" wheel and replaced the lowered shocks from the custom with replacement Precision shocks that raised the bike up several inches. The handling improvement on this Sportster was incredible but the looks this guy got when he asked the mechanic to do the changes told the story. I have yet talked to another Harley owner who has seen this bike, understand why he did it. Also my friend is not the typical Harley owner. His '04 Sportster has 70k miles, most around here will never ride that much in their life time. Read the web chatter, ride up on a Buell to ten of the closest Harley dealerships around your area and try to deny anything I have written here. I've wrote it before, but I will do it again to not belittle the point. There are a FEW great HD/Buell dealerships around the country like yourselves (Hals, Liberty, Bumpus, Ray Price to name a few) that have done the Buell brand right. But for every one like you, there are at least ten like the HD dealership 10 miles from my house. | ||
| Court |
>>>Harley management really has no idea what they have done. There is some fact to that. I'll be eager to see if the mags simply regurgitate the press release of if anyone digs deeper. | ||
| 04xl1200c |
M2nc, I hate to tell you this but you are wrong. I just got my 75,000 mile service done. But thanks for the nice words,lol. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Per Court, "I'll be eager to see if the mags simply regurgitate the press release of if anyone digs deeper." I've spoken with a few other editors re this story. No one that I know of is afraid of it. The problem at this point is with determining just what is fact. That will take some time. This is a developing story, no doubt about it. | ||
| Technomad |
Jammer: I really hate buying under these circumstances, but Buells talk to me and they're going away. My VFR is a fine bike, but it's not really the one for me, and I can only justify one bike. My short list for a replacement includes the XB12Ss, the XB12X, and the Triumph Tiger 1050. Main problem with the Lightning Long is deciding what to do about luggage. The hard bags are addictive. | ||
| Elvis |
Mr. Kittrelle, I hope you're right, but so far the silence has been deafening. If the brand really has no value, why not sell it to EB for $1 ? Let him go broke and make a fool of himself if Buell is really the money pit that Harley makes it out to be. Harley seems to think that, because they couldn't figure out what to do with Buell, nobody can . . . but they don't want to give anybody the opportunity to prove them wrong. It seems to me that Harley owes a debt to the US motorcycle consuming public. We sacrificed our ability to buy non-Harley, large disoplacement bikes in the mid '80s when the Reagan administration levied huge tariffs to try to keep Harley in business . . . because it was important to have a domestic motorcycle manufacturer. Now that Harley survived to become THE dominant force in the US motorcycle market, it seems they're determined to kill off the only innovative US manufacturer in an act that can only be rationalized as a paranoid, Herrod type infanticide . . . and no-one seems to care. Even if there's no hope for Buell, I'd like to see the moto-journalists, at the very least, hold Harley D. accountable in the court of public opinion. "At Harley-Davidson, we’re all about freedom. . . " http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=38595 I don't see how moto-journalists can allow them to make statements like that while doing this to Buell without calling them on it. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Mr. Kittrelle? C'mon, Elvis, I may have petted god's dog when he was a pup, but I'm "Reg" Part of the problem is timing. There is at least a 30 day lead time, and often much longer, with the mags. My pub, American Rider, comes out six times a year: I'm working on the Feb '10 issue which will hit the stands in mid December. That will be the first mention in this mag you'll see. There is no conjecture offered because I wrote it last week with little knowledge other than of the action. Keep something else in mind; there are several different sides to this. The more responsible mags are going to look at this very thoroughly before drawing conclusions. Harley is the bad guy around these parts, but that sentiment is not universally echoed. A corporation... large or small... has a physiology of sorts that reacts exactly like the human body when it is threaten: It will do everything it can to protect its life. In extreme cold, the human body will restrict blood flow to the extremities in order to assure that the brain gets sufficient oxygen. Consider Buell, MV , and the Taladega test facilities as extremities taking money (oxygen) from the core business (Harleys). That Harley may or may not be right in its actions is irrelevant: It did what it thought was necessary to survive. There are several things that bother me about what has happened, and a couple that puzzle me. Two thoughts are forefront in my mind; 1) The situation might be worse, or expected to get worse, than Harley has let on. The disaster that is HDFS is the primary problem facing HDI. If the economy does not improve, HDFS will get a lot worse. Secondly, the shuttering, rather than sale, of Buell begs numerous questions. With only very limited knowledge of the situation, it does does not make a lot of sense to me. I do not buy the "integration" reasoning. I can think of a number of reasons to not sell it, and hope I'm right with at least a couple of them. | ||
| Elvis |
Thanks Reg, Yes, hopefully the print mags will have some analysis and editorial, but in this age of the internet, at least some commentary could be happening now. I have been following this very closely and I'd say your piece on the Roadracing World site was the only thoughtful commentary I've seen so far. Nearly everyone else seems to be, as Court mentioned, re-wording the press release. I am certainly hopeful that there is more going on behind the scenes, but unless journalists keep pressure on Harley, they have no reason to comment. If journalists would at least speak about how Harley's actions seem to be a crime against those of us who want a domestic sport-bike manufacturer and where hoping that the 1125RR would wipe out the stigma of the VR1000 once and for all, that would put some pressure on Harley to tell us if there is still hope for a US superbike. And IF there is something going on behind the scenes, the media needs to make it clear that Harley has a responsibility to the American motorcycle community (who supported Harley when they were a small, struggling brand on the verge of death) that goes beyond a strict interpretation of their legal rights to ensure that an American superbike will see the light of day and not be killed off in its infancy. Keep in mind, Harley was a $200 million company in 1982 when we "bailed them out" - not all that much bigger than Buell's $123 million last year. And I would argue that Buell is a much more viable company now than Harley was then. Imagine, for a moment what a 49.4% tariff on sport-motorcycles over 700 cc would do for Buell. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,923524,00.html With the lack of clear, honest information from Harley, it seems fair game for journalists to report and comment on what is known and it will then be Harley's responsibility to correct any mis-assumptions. Nothing Harley has said or done since Oct. 15th have earned them an attitude of: "Let's just sit back and wait for the truth to come out." from the media IMHO. (Message edited by elvis on November 03, 2009) | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
You are correct with every point you make Elvis. Part of the problem is that the enthusiast press --be it motorcycles, skiing, or checkers-- is enthusiast-based. We come at the sport as supporters, not muckrakers. Over the years a quid pro quo relationship develops which can erode the basics of good journalism. All the motorcycle companies work diligently at, in effect, co-opting us. We moto-journalists know we're being worked; what we need do is guard against its effect. Another factor. Very few of us (and it certainly includes me) have any formal training. We mostly arrive at where we are through on-the-job-training. This situation is workable for the companies and the readers as long as we maintain a certain level of integrity; readers know immediately if the writer has gone to the dark side. I come across contributors on a regular basis that work as extended mouthpieces for various companies. In my opinion, one of the best real motojournalists out there is John Ulrich of Roadracing World. It's unfortunate that his beat is narrow; I'd love to see him tackle this issue. Personally, I'm making various attempts to penetrate at least the first layer. We'll see. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Amen on John Ulrich. He is at the top of the list in no BS journalists , and has so much respect for it that he can even rightfully tar and feather a brand sponsoring one of his teams for something they did poorly and not lose the sponsorship. It is enough to give hope. A small glimmer, but it's there. I believe the greater majority of coercion-vulnerable journalists carry a piece of the burden for the demise of America's industries. It would be wonderful if the small group of honorable journalists would take control back. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
It would also be "wonderful" Imonabuss, if you knew what you were talking about. | ||
| Imonabuss |
I do, and I do think it's wonderful that I do. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
I'm happy for you. | ||
| Court |
I keep going back to that statement by Harley's CFO . . .
How, I am wondering, does such a business decision get made without quantifying the impact. From another letter I got today . . . which I haven't digested but find thought provoking.
The more you know . . . . | ||
| Endoman33 |
Court,' I had a question for Steve Hegg A PG14 Consultant, that the owner and myself and my salesman had a tele conference with. MR.HD has a Military ad (according to the weekly update dealership staff get) campain that is designed toward the "core" customer. So I asked him what that core military customers age is he said he thinks it would be in there (40-50). The Owner of our dealership and I believe this "core" military customers average would be around 25-30. To make a long story short dealers are not even sure who Mr.HD wants there "core" customer to be. |
