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Mad_doctor
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How about "BUELL, American Engineered motorcycles". I think it would prove to the world that we still have the process refined. It's still pretty cool that these designs are being copied all over the world. I have an early 1946 Dodge truck, that says, "MADE IN THE U.S.A." stamped into the grill, right under the dodge name. This truck was made for the war effort, so it also may have gone overseas, but the war ended first.
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Hangetsu
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

<<So Toyota cars built in Kentucky should be called American Cars?>>

Maybe so. According to a Toyota mechanic friend of mine (this comment was made a few years back,mind you)the Toyota's built in the USA are, with few exceptions "crap" compared to those built in Japan. He said, the number of warranty repairs owing to sloppy assembly required on American built Toyotas was about 10 to every 1 Japanese built vehicle; and this was back when there were still far more Japanese built vehicles on the road.

(Message edited by hangetsu on January 24, 2009)

(Message edited by hangetsu on January 24, 2009)
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Hangetsu
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not to be misunderstood, I love my Buell and part of what I love about it is the fact that it's American made. I almost feel that the Buells are more exotic than any other bike on the road BECAUSE they are American made. However, I can have confidence in the quality of my Buell because I can be relatively certain that the level of integrity, mindfulness, and the genuine passion for what they're doing is a bit higher in the Buell employee than what you'll find in the average American auto worker. With the exception of full-size pick-ups, there's virtually no American auto product I'd put my faith in.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe so. According to a Toyota mechanic friend of mine (this comment was made a few years back,mind you)the Toyota's built in the USA are, with few exceptions "crap" compared to those built in Japan. He said, the number of warranty repairs owing to sloppy assembly required on American built Toyotas was about 10 to every 1 Japanese built vehicle; and this was back when there were still far more Japanese built vehicles on the road.

That said, American made Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans still have fewer incidences of mechanical issues per 1000 than their American marque competitors.
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Mnrider
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Check on MSN autos the Mercury brand is about even with toyota and honda and way ahead of nissan in the repairs per 1000.
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Mnrider
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

3 year MSN quality survey repairs per 100 vehicles
Lexus 120
Mercury 151
Caddy 155
Toyota 159
Acura 160
Buick 153
BMW 164
Lincoln 165
Honda 177
Jaguar 178
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thank you Mnrider for some reality.

"Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans still have fewer incidences of mechanical issues per 1000 than their American marque competitors."

Is bunk and old prejudice of the 1980s and early 90s carried forward.

~jammer
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wasn't bunk in my latest Consumer Reports auto digest.

I guess they are carrying over old biases in their testing and CONSUMER SURVEYS?


Not to say that American marques aren't improving, but to say that Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans built stateside are below Ford, Chrysler, and GM is silly.
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Froggy
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I love a good thread derailment. Consumer Reports is a horrible source for info. They have been beating into their readers heads for years that American cars are crap, so when they send you a survey, you are pre programmed into thinking American cars are crap and will give bad responses. CR even recently admitted this flaw in their data gathering but they still continue to do it.

Mrider, do you have a link to the article? I don't see it posted on msn.com anymore. I am curious, because last time Buick was tied with Lexus for first.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What is the value of CR unfairly bagging us manufacturers?

If the cars have problems, they have problems.

Are you a "CR's been bought off by the Japanese" conspiracy nut?



Ratings companies seek to remain credible above all lest they become untrustworthy and irrelevant.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It ain't a derailment. It's thread life support. The questions had been answered and the thread was dead.

We're just keeping it alive. : D
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Hooper
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do we still make Buicks?

Hangetsu, you're right in many ways. There is a cultural difference between Japan and America, for better or for worse (frankly, I'd rather be an American), and it sometimes shows itself in the quality of products and processes. Those same "cultural differences" manifest themselves in different ways. Once again, I'm VERY glad I was born right here in America (Cincinnati, Ohio, to be exact).

That said...

HAPPY ROBERT BURNS DAY!!! SLAINTE MHATH!! HERE'S TO THE HAGGIS!! It was pretty chilly riding in the kilt today!
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Hangetsu
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hooper,
I have to say, I do share the same feeling. Having lived in Japan for several years, and worked for Corporate Japan several more, I have a deep appreciation for the social education that makes the Japanese the they are, but I know that If I were born Japanese, I would have never had the opportunities I have had being American. The USA may have it's faults, but there is still no country on earth that offers its citizens the choices we have here.
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Mnrider
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-doc umentid=435214
This is the reliability article.
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Hangetsu
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's a good article, but it doesn't address the nature of the repairs (many could be quite insignificant) and what's really important, the long term, high mileage reliability. Unless it's very pampered, you still won't see many American cars doing too well much past 100,000 to 150,000 miles. They may still be going, but they're usually in shambles. The average Toyota, Honda, or Nissan, unless abused, will still be solid as a rock well beyond 200K. And when it comes to fit, finish, ergonomics, and overall function in design - there's still no comparison.
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Froggy
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok posting this early, I was gathering evidence to counter Ft_bstrd, but you stole my attention.


quote:

Unless it's very pampered, you still won't see many American cars doing too well much past 100,000 to 150,000 miles




That is the biggest pile of bull I have ever seen posted on this site. I have first hand experience, my first car, a 90 Pontiac Bonneville, 230K on it when I got into a head on collision that wrecked it. It died with a torque converter issue, apparently I did too many burnouts for something that old. After that, my 90 Lumina sedan. Drove it, beat on it, kept on ticking fine till the day my dad sold it. I currently drive an 02 Monte Carlo. Bought it 4 years ago with 24k on it, now has 135k. Burn outs, dukes of hazard jumps, 70mph ebrakes, doughnuts and whatever else I can throw at it. She is still going great, problems to date have been road salt two years in a row has clogged a wheel sensor, clean it out and its good. Hasn't happened this year yet. Oh, and I needed front bearings at 120k. What a lemon, my Buell had only a dozen warranty items in 6 months.

Do a google search for million cars:
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q =million+mile+car&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

You got a Saab (GM), Volvo (Ford), Chevy pickup, Camaro, Lincon town car, a Mercedes, Ford F250, and a few others. Zero Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitus, Subaru.


quote:

And when it comes to fit, finish, ergonomics, and overall function in design - there's still no comparison.




Wow you have been out of the loop. The Chevy Malibu has a best in class interior, and makes the Camry look like a Pinto.
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Mnrider
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My parents own an auto repair shop that I work at on weekends and I have been a tech at new car dealers for over 30 years and I see many American cars and trucks with over 200k miles and I see many Japanese cars that belong in the junk yard at 100k.
Sure Japanese cars are good but they don't need to be held on a pedestal like gods.
I have a friend who always bragged about how great his Honda was but when his trans went out on his Accord at 70k we did't talk about that any more
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Froggy
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Let me guess, 99-02 Accord? Best part is, because of the mass failures Honda had to outsource the replacement trans, and they ended up having to get them from GM : )
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Mnrider
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Consumer Reports was developed in a basement in Hiroshima,those Japanese are smart.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 01:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am not lauding Japanese cars over American cars because they are Japanese. Historically, American cars have had lower overall quality.

Period.


Are the 2008 and 2009 models markedly better? Absolutely. Never said they weren't.

You don't, as a manufacturer, get to shit in a box and sell it to the general public for 30 years and then get a pass with one year. You have to EARN quality distinctions that heretofore haven't been there.

My parents last Chrysler minivan dropped two transmissions. The model generation they had before that one dropped three. The one before THAT one dropped two. (They now have a Toyota Sienna.)

Their Lincoln Town car had a complete suspension system failure at 75,000 miles.

They DID get 150,000 out of a Pontiac Parisienne. The Pontiac Bonneville that it replaced was the wonderful 350 gas/diesel conversion.


We tend to hang onto cars for a while. None of us trade vehicles often.

I had 165,000 on my first car, a VW beetle. My next car, an 88 Toyota 4-Runner had 189,000 miles. I sold it and got a 96 Honda Civic. I sold it with 165,000 miles. My next car was an 01 Toyota 4-runner. We sold it with 216,000 miles on it. I still see it running around town four years later. It's probably got over 300,000 now. I sold it and bought a VW Passat. I sold it with 135,000 miles on it. I replaced it with an Acura TL. It just rolled over 100,000 miles this weekend. We also own a Toyota Sequoia with 147,000 miles on it.

I had problems with the VW. Otherwise, no issues with ANY of the other vehicles. Change the fluids and drive.

I don't HATE American manufacturers. Just the opposite. I want them to do well. I want them to make cars I can trust. Until this year, they haven't.

I am VERY seduced by the G6/Aura/Malibu platform. I think for the money, they are some of the best cars available from American manufacturers. I think this will bear out in CR as well (will kill their Japanese handlers no doubt).

I think the G8 is friggin' fantastic. I love the new Outlook/Enclave SUV.

I think the Impala still looks like ass. I hope it'll be the G8 platform when it's all said and done.



Jingoistic rah, rah pro-domestic auto maker blather aside, you can't with a straight face claim that the Japanese manufacturers haven't been kicking our asses for the last 20 years.
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 01:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was an engineering manager at Whirlpool in a former life and Consumer Reports would rate Whirlpool, Kenmore, Roper and KitchenAid clothes washers with Maytag and GE intermingled in the list.

Whirlpool makes Kenmore, Roper and KitchenAid of the same components, the same design and they run down the same assembly lines, parts fabricated off the same tooling. Yet CR swore there were differences in performance and reliability.

nuff said
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Previously owned or presently between my kids and our cars,
1974 Ford Gran Torino Elite (a tad newer than in new Clint Eastwood movie) had 187,000 miles when I sold it after college. Had a radiator wear out, carb rebuild, and rear axle seals fail, timing chain at 100,000, several exhaust systems
1978 Lincoln Town Coupe' had 175,000 when sold and one power lock quit at 100K, tranny had a $300 rebuild at 90K, front calipers froze up when it was stored one winter.
1984 F150 needed a fuel pump and carb rebuild around 89,000, I sold with 190,000 on it, friend drove it until Michigan cancer made it unsafe with 225,000, pulled the motor and put it in another F-150, still going last I heard
1989 Ford Aerostar - sold to a friend at 130,000, his use and that of his son while in college turned 250,000 but Michigan cancer (rust) got to it
1994 Ford Taurus 118,000 miles, no major repairs ignoring two accidents my daughter at CSU had and still drives it, one took out the air conditioning system
1997 Ford Taurus 132,000 miles, an exhaust header gasket failed two years ago, son going to CU still driving including a cross country trip last summer
1998 Ford Windstar 121,000 miles and had to put a battery in it last year, first one! and new rotors at 90,000 miles with its second set of front pads, still driving
2003 Taurus has 55,000 and had a sensor connector failure while under warranty, still driving

Yup, damn crappy American design, American made American cars.

(Message edited by jammin_joules on January 26, 2009)
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Hangetsu
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Holy S&^%, what a tirade I started. I think we should drop this topic, shake and be friends; before violence ensues. ; )

It seems auto loyalty is as sensitive a subject as politics and religion.

Well, at least we all agree on one thing...BUELL!
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 02:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Glad we US tax payers can help... Japan's Nikkei average jumped 4.6% ...after relief over a possible lifeline for the struggling U.S. auto industry lifted ... Toyota and other exporters..
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUST16 227720081215

Mitch Albom, a Detroit sports writer, playwright, musician, philanthropist gives his version of the speech he'd make before congress...

Protecting the home turf?

Sen. Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work."

Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more?

Way to think of the nation first, senator.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081123/COL01/811230 371
Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance.

But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them."

But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars?

Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress?
......................o~'o
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Froggy
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jammin, CR said the same thing about the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. Same car, different skin, yet somehow its quality is sub part to the toyotas. Beats me.


Ft_bstrd, we consider 2004 to be the year of the new GM, as thats when stuff Rick Wagoneer and Bob Lutz put into motion starting to come to reality. Took a few years to phase everything out, but todays GM lineup is 1000x better in every department than 10 years ago.


quote:

I am VERY seduced by the G6/Aura/Malibu platform




Avoid the G6, Aura is a little better, but GM spent the coin on the Malibu. You will drool over the next generation of the epsilon platform cars : )






quote:

I think the G8 is friggin' fantastic



Indeed it is, but I am pissed the pickup got canned.


quote:

I love the new Outlook/Enclave SUV.



Who dosen't : )


quote:

I think the Impala still looks like ass. I hope it'll be the G8 platform when it's all said and done.




That was the plan, then gas hit $8 a gallon, new CAFE standards, bailouts and economy taking a dump killed everything RWD in GMs plans. G8 is dead after 2012 as it stands. Even the Corvette is in limbo.


quote:

you can't with a straight face claim that the Japanese manufacturers haven't been kicking our asses for the last 20 years



Indeed they have.
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Crackhead
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 07:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"3 year MSN quality survey repairs per 100 vehicles
Lexus 120
Mercury 151
Caddy 155
Toyota 159
Acura 160
Buick 153
BMW 164
Lincoln 165
Honda 177
Jaguar 178"

something is not right with that survey. The Ford and Mercury cars should have the EXACT same scores. The only difference is the badge on the hood and stearing wheel.

Same thing is happening with Buick and Olds. Were is Olds on the ratings?

I can see Lincoln owners being more picky then Ford/ Mercury owners, Thus explaining the lower rating of Lincolns. Same with Caddys.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Olds was dead long ago. They no longer exist as a marque.
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Wesman
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

GMC Jimmy 130K ..... I have replaced worn out parts .... Imagine that! .....Runs like the day I bought it. America has talked it's self into thinking our products are crap. They blame the unions, they blame the workers.....but they NEVER blame the managers, bean counters or the engineers .... cause Americans are mostly bean counters, engineers or managers. The days of workers leaving soda bottles inside doors went away in the 70's. To tell the truth 80% of all cars are built by robots.
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Mnrider
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I still like my theory about CR and Hiroshima
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Jammin_joules
Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Vehicle quality rankings for 2008
Annual J.D. Power initial quality rankings by vehicle brand for defects and design issues in 2008 new vehicles:

Nameplate IQS rank
Porsche 87
Infiniti 98
Lexus 99
Mercedes-Benz 104
Toyota 104
Mercury 109
Honda 110
Ford 112
Jaguar 112
- Ford owned
Audi 113
Cadillac 113
Chevrolet 113

Hyundai 114
Pontiac 114
Lincoln 115
Buick 118

Industry average 118


Acura 119
Kia 119
Nissan 124
Volvo 124 - Ford owned
BMW 126
GMC 127

Mazda 127
Volkswagen 128
Hummer 132
Subaru 133
Scion 138
Dodge 141
Chrysler 142

Mitsubishi 149
Saab 149
Suzuki 152
Saturn 157
Land Rover 161
Mini 163

Source: J.D. Power and Associates annual Initial Quality Study, based on responses from 81,500 buyers and lessees of 2008 vehicles after 90 days of ownership.
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