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Rick_a
| | Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2003 - 11:11 pm: | 
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The engine is what makes them all the more unique. Some people will never get it...let them say what they will. There are classes where Buells are competitive...just none of them happen to be in the AMA. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 07:20 am: |
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Does the British superbike championship favor Triumph? What rules do you propose for the AMA such that Victory & Indian could also compete? Regardless of AMAPR's goofy decisions regarding future class structures, they do follow the sportbike market.
Also, as Court points out, Buell makes streetbikes. The opinions of many here seem to be that the bike is fine the way it is. So be it, but don't bitch that it doesn't have a racing class. Pro-thunder was neat, don't know why they ditched it in the first place. FUSA's Thunderbike class is also neat, I'll at least be watching some of those races from local tracks.
Nope, Blake, I don't work for AMAPR, but they do give me cash to get you riled up. 
I remember a time when AMAPR produced riders who would leave to go to the world stage and dominate. Roberts, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Polen, Russell, etc. I went to watch some of those Spencer/Lawson battles. Right now, I'd rather go to a FUSA race than an AMA race. Is it because Buell's aren't competetive? Nope. I just can't stand Matt Mladin. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 07:27 am: |
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>>>but they also have the best, most innovative engine in the world?
The catch is that the delicate balance on which "reliability" and "most innovative engine" get placed may only be tipped with TONS (as in millions) of dollars.
Buell, in classic Econ 101 "butter or guns" fashion, has finite resources in terms of $$$, human capital and the rarest, TIME.
Buell was, and not without merit, taken to task for reliability. Buell builds motorcycles for retail sale, racing is an extended application, not a design goal.
Buell, in response to media and owners reactions, gathered round, hunkered down and set about fighting the reliability dragon.
The dragon, in Buell-speak, is slayed. The BLASTR and XB platforms are well on the road to becoming the most reliable motorcycles E-V-E-R made.
Engine development is expensive. You not only have to get through the "make less do more" portion of exploiting engineering technology, but you have to wrestle with the government regulation part even before you get to marketing and branding. I am convinced that few in these internet forums appreciate the scope of the regulatory portion of this project management mountain.
I'm confident that Erik Buell has several engine designs in his head. But if you think it's just whacking off the muffler to make 3hp or that he's ignored "lessons learned" and is foolhardy enough to undertake a 4 year/$50M development in 18 months with $1.5M, ain't gonna happen.
Erik and the gang at Buell have had their pee-pees slapped over the reliability thing. They've done for reliability what Team Elves did for speed...won big and left all others in the dust.
I expect great things from Buell and I expect the focus to be on the retail sale of streetfight type bikes with enthusiasts continuing to provide an exciting racing component at various levels.
Then again......I could be wrong.
Court
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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:34 am: |
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If I could afford a Buell race bike, I would ride it home from Colorado or Florida, not East Troy. And it WOULD NOT meet EPA noise requirements. It would probably meet emission requirements, but only by accident  |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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>>>If I could afford a Buell race bike, I would ride it home from Colorado or Florida, not East Troy.
And that is, as it should be. Wes or Aaron are far more able to focus on performance and far less constrained. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 01:13 pm: |
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"The engine is what makes them all the more unique."
Absolutely. The last thing I would want to see would be a liquid cooled in-line four, but consider some other possibilities. I’m not saying this is possible or practical. I’m not saying it would pass EPA noise testing or go more than 100 miles without blowing up. This isn’t a rational discussion, just something to think about on a lazy Sunday morning. Something an old professor of mine would call “mental masturbation".
Imagine the current engine, air cooled, V-Twin with displacement increased to 1200 cc and valves modified (improved push-rod or, more likely completely novel system) that would allow revs up to 11 K. I’ve taken some liberty with the Nallin Dyno chart, but imagine getting something like this:
Now imagine marketing a bike like this: “We’ve created a bike that is so different in every sense, so completely unique that it has the power of a 1200 with the handling of a 250. This is like nothing the world has ever seen.”
And here’s the kicker: “We asked the AMA if we could race this beast, and they responded: ARE YOU CRAZY . . . maybe we are . . .”
(Message edited by elvis on May 04, 2003) |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 03:17 pm: |
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Cool idea, Elvis. I wish it was possible. However, it would take some pretty exotic work to get there.
The engine would share nothing with the current design...there are many many more things that would have to change to get 11,000 rpm! And you could not get the same amount of torque down low, because the stroke would have to become incredibly short to reach these RPM. And if the stroke is shortened, then the powerband would look quite different; more like a Japanese bike.
Therefore the power band you are drawing cannot exist in the current world of production materials. I mean there might be a technology that could get an 89 mm stroke motor to 11,000 rpm...but if there was it would be wildly expensive!!! Like maybe rods grown atom by atom to include no irregularities...
Piston bore would be huge, and 45 degree cylinder angle couldn't happen without really loooong rods to keep the pistons from hitting each other. Of course the long rods would add so much mass that the load on the rod bearings and crank would go outa sight...
I'll leave it to some of the bright engineering guys on this site to give you the numbers. Heck, they need this kinda stuff to keep those mental juices rolling.
Aaron, Blake, Steve A., etc., put some numbers in here to show Elvis why it can't happen!
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Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 04:40 pm: |
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All I want is 100 RWHP, comfortable ergonomics, good hard bags, XB reliability and the pure beauty of the S3-T. The first four items should be pretty easy. It'll be tough to match the looks of the Thunderbolt. I want a worthy successor to the S2 and S3. I want to laugh at the rolling zeppelin BMW riders.(You know, if you painted an R1100S pure white, people would mistake it for a urinal)
I want to put 100,000 miles on a Sport touring motorcycle performing only routine maintenance.
I don't think I'm alone. I bet it would sell. I know two would be sold, for sure. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 05:40 pm: |
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Thanks Anon! I'm sure you're right, but as I said, It's just something to think about on lazy Sunday. If anyone does have additional details and numbers, I always love looking at those things. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 10:38 pm: |
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Erik has some cool engine stuff in his head alright but it ain't gonna happen in the next few years because the budget won't be there. It took 12 years for some of the XB ideas to reach production.
I any cool engine stuff happens it will be every bit as far out as the XB platform. It will be unlike any other motor out there and I am willing to bet it will hav performance numbers that will leave people saying "why didn't we think to do that?" |
Grim_euphoria
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 11:20 pm: |
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Dual over head cams, 4 valves per cylinder, hemispherical combustion chambers, each cylinders moving parts counter balanced. It could happen.
If piston/rod mass is a problem, what about an aircooled v-4 with smaller bores? That would allow the shorter stroke and higher revs cut down on vibration etc.... Blah, Blah, Blah, Turbo, Blah.
We keep hearing that we like our Buells, but it sure sounds like Jap bike envy when you read all the comments.
If you want a world class Buell, organize a stock buy up, and apply a little influence to the right peoples knee caps.
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 03:15 pm: |
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Ben,
As usual, you whip out the rhetoric and obfuscation in an attempt to deflect discussion from the core issue...
Does the British superbike championship favor Triumph?
I don't know. No one is asking for favoritism. We are asking for fairness, parity, equitable rules. Does Brit SB have a Superstock class that favors liquid cooled DOHC 4-valve IL4's over any other engine configuration? Do they have a Supersport class that unfairly excludes Ducati 749's and Buell XB9R's? They may be as biased and disingenuous as AMAPR. I don't know. I don't care. I'm currently concerned about AMAPR, not Brit SB racing.
"What rules do you propose for the AMA such that Victory & Indian could also compete?"
Same type of rules currently employed by FUSA for their Sportbike class. Did you think that a difficult question to answer? It isn't.
Even so, given the opportunity, Who do you imagine would enter a Victory or Indian motorcycle in an AMAPR Supersport race, let alone be able to qualify for one? Answer... No one.
"Regardless of AMAPR's goofy decisions regarding future class structures, they do follow the sportbike market."
The decisions of AMAPR are not goofy. The management of AMAPR is not stupid. They are corrupt and in the pockets of the Japanese factories. Neither does AMAPR follow the sport bike market. If they did, they would not exclude popular sport bikes like Ducatis and Buells from racing in Supersport. As I see it, they follow the Japanese sport bike market only. Buell and Ducati are excluded from the Supersport class. Why? Answer... AMAPR's sugar daddies no likee.
Also, as Court points out, Buell makes streetbikes.
The XB9R is a viable sport bike entry on tight tracks. Riding an XB9R, Eric Wood won the FUSA Sportbike race at Loudon last year.
The opinions of many here seem to be that the bike is fine the way it is. So be it, but don't bitch that it doesn't have a racing class.
Don't tell me what not to bitch about! I'll bitch about any damn thing I like, especially when it is something as valid and abvious as the pro-Japan bias of AMAPR. The XB9R and the Ducati 749, and the Ducati 1000SS do have a racing class. It is called Supersport. Unfortunately AMAPR excludes all the above sport bikes from racing in that class.
Pro-thunder was neat, don't know why they ditched it in the first place.
I do. AMAPR's daddies no likee.
FUSA's Thunderbike class is also neat, I'll at least be watching some of those races from local tracks.
FUSA's Sportbike class is even better. It allows all configurations of current sportbikes to compete head to head.
Nope, Blake, I don't work for AMAPR, but they do give me cash to get you riled up.
Are you affiliated with AMA Pro Racing in any way?
I remember a time when AMAPR produced riders who would leave to go to the world stage and dominate. Roberts, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Polen, Russell, etc.
Uh... Kenny Roberts Jr., Collin Edwards, John Hopkins, Nicky Hayden...  Regardless, your point is what wrt the blatant bias of AMAPR in favor of their big four factory daddies?
Blake (not easily distracted from the core issue... apparent corruption and blatant pro Japan brand bias of AMAPR) |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2003 - 08:32 pm: |
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Blake,
Since AMA ProRacing is going to snub Buell for 2004, maybe Buell can petition the FIM for allowance in its World SuperSport series. If Buell comes out with that rumored 1200cc full-fairing monster - imagine it competeing with the UJM's and Ducati at some of the most technical and beautiful tracks in the world. Triumph will more than likely enter the World stage for 2004 also. If Harley would drop some t-shirt and chrome money and go big for 2004 perhaps it would shame the AMA into letting an American bike compete. Through dreaming now. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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Blake,
Apparent corruption and pro-japanese bias are two different things. While looking at the rules structure from a business perspective leads to one point of view, another point of view is to accuse both AMAPR and the Japanese of fraudulent behavior. The reasoning behind a pro-japanese bias have been listed, if you choose not to believe that AMAPR is a business (and that the Japanese use success in that series to sell bikes) then that's your opinion. Mine's different.
If pointing out that "Again.. It is the AMERICAN Motorcyclist Association Pro Racing." does not amount to suggesting favoritism, then what does? The fact remains that millions have been spent on the development of SS bikes. If Buell can't stomach the "entry fee", then that's their decision.
No, Blake, I have NO affiliation with AMAPR. None whatsoever.
Kenny Roberts Jr. has not exactly set the world on fire. Nor has John Hopkins, nor Nicky Hayden. Colin Edwards? Well, in WSB he did well. Still waiting for that MotoGP result. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 12:57 pm: |
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Ben,
Kenny Roberts Jr. is a 2 time MotoGP champion last time I checked (during the 500cc two stroke years). |
Shooter
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 02:15 pm: |
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Nicky Hayden is 6th in points in his rookie year.That is a huge accomplishment for any rookie, but its huge considering He is not coming from the 250 class which runs the same circuts.John Hopkins is also doing well considering his equipment. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 03:43 pm: |
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KR Jr is a ONE TIME champ, in 2000, post-Doohan & pre-Rossi. Now, he spends his time bitching while John Hopkins beats him, on the same equipment. Where was KR Sr. ranked in his "rookie year"? How about Lawson, or Rainey? Schwantz? Does this then count as Bayliss' "rookie year" also? Where's he ranked? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 04:06 pm: |
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Kenny Roberts Sr. was ranked #1 in 1978, during his first of three world 500cc championships, in his "rookie season", on unfamiliar circuits. Check the ama hall of fame:
http://home.ama-cycle.org/forms/museum/hofbiopage.asp?id=88
Another great, or two:
http://home.ama-cycle.org/forms/museum/hofbiopage.asp?id=275
http://home.ama-cycle.org/forms/museum/hofbiopage.asp?id=268
The second is Schwantz, there's a comment in it about him being the last of a long line of dominant americans. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 06:04 pm: |
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Ben,
Apparent corruption and pro-japanese bias are two different things.
So in your mind it is perfectly ethical to grant the Japanese brands a clear advantage over their competitors? You think it is fair to exclude other brands with different engine configurations from racing in a national series? You think it is okay to say one thing and do another? You think it is okay for executive management to lie and misrepresent the facts? AMAPR does all of the above. You are free to support their actions as you wish. I cannot understand why you would.
While looking at the rules structure from a business perspective leads to one point of view, another point of view is to accuse both AMAPR and the Japanese of fraudulent behavior.
No, both are mutually reinforcing. There is NO good or valid business reason to EXCLUDE other brands (Ducati, Buell) using different engine configurations (749RS, 1000SS, XB9R), from the Supersport class. Is there a good or valid business reason that allows a 600cc motorcycle that in stock form produces less than 100rwhp to be producing over 130 rwhp with the mere addition of race exhaust and ECM?
The reasoning behind a pro-japanese bias have been listed, if you choose not to believe that AMAPR is a business (and that the Japanese use success in that series to sell bikes) then that's your opinion. Mine's different.
Ohhhh, I certainly will not disagree that the Japanese use success in racing to sell their bikes. And I certainly understand that AMAPR is a business. How many businesses do you know that thrive in an atmosphere of lies and deceit? Your beliefs are that executive management of AMAPR are honest business people. I know otherwise. I have it in writing.
If pointing out that "Again.. It is the AMERICAN Motorcyclist Association Pro Racing." does not amount to suggesting favoritism, then what does?
Damn right, with the title and venue, if there are to be any favoritism it should be towards the theme and venue of the series.
The fact remains that millions have been spent on the development of SS bikes. If Buell can't stomach the "entry fee", then that's their decision.
You think Ducati hasn't invested anything in the development of the 748RS or the 749RS? Aprilia and Ducati haven't invested in development of thier V-Twin Superbikes? Ducati and Buell race teams hadn't invested anything in their Pro-Thunder bikes?
Fair is fair, lies are lies, corruption and favoritism are one in the same in a national racing series.
AMAPR is basically saying that... If you want to race competitively in our sanctioned series, you need to ride a Japanese motorcycle because no other type or configuration of motorcycle will be permitted or if it is it will not be competitive, and we will ensure that the situation stays that way. Anytime another brand looks to present a challenge to the dominance of Japanese motorcycles, we will change the rules to prevent it. Of course we won't say that up front, in fact we'll actually let Ducati and Buell believe that we will adjust the rules to allow parity among all brands, but we won't really.
No, Blake, I have NO affiliation with AMAPR. None whatsoever.
Does your dad, brother, sister, mother, son, wife, friends?
AMAPR is run by dishonest people whose loyalties are for their own personal financial gain, no matter the cost to others or the integrity sacrificed. By their chosen name they represent America. I'm offended by that. They either need to shape up or change their name. Be honest and simply call it "In-Line Four Pro Racing" or "As Specified by Japan Pro Racing."
You asked me what rules should apply. I answered. You suddenly grow silent on the issue. I see your problem dealing with that issue. You see it is VERY simple. Why not allow Ducatis or Buells or Aprilias to race with their own configurations of engines, in parity with those of other brands. WHY NOT? There is only ONE answer... AMAPR's Japanese daddies no likee. That my friend is corruption any way you look at it. Of course you are free to blindly believe otherwise. Whatever. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 06:10 pm: |
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Aprilia can afford to be in Moto GP with their Cosworth F1 based triple, and it has some fancy (read expensive) technology going on. It produces some real power too.
I'd love to see the Texan Tornado go well on it.
Rocket
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Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 06:35 pm: |
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Aprilia is a very large company, infinitely bigger than Buell, if that is why it was mentioned. It sells most of its scooters and little bikes to kids, and makes money on "race replica" 50cc and 125cc bikes. BTW, they are having their rear ends handed back to them on a platter in MotoGP. They also were thoroughly spanked in Superbike.
It's a freaking tragedy that Edwards has to ride the piece of junk he's on in MotoGP. I mean, he thoroughly proved himself to be a better rider than Bayliss in a man to man duel, when Bayliss had the better bike. Now he's struggling at the back of the pack, and has had a number of major crashes from trying to even keep up that pace. And Bayliss, well he was right in the hunt for the lead in the last race.
The reason the AMA is screwing Buell is quite simple. Blake is right, they are totally committed to the Japanese. There is absolutely no reason why they didn't give a displacement boost to Buell equivalent to the one thay existed when 750SS was the class. Now that the fours are 1000cc, why not let the Buells and other pushrod air-cooled motors have 1500cc?
The Japanese are terrified of an American company getting recognized as a leader in sportbike technology. I mean, Harley-Davidson continues to take their best shots in cruiser land, and coming out on top. What if Buell was actually recognized for what it is by the majority of the sportbike public? A world class motorcycle with an absolutely delightful street motor. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 08:00 pm: |
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That is why it was mentioned bus driver.
Incidentally, Harley Davidson is a very large company too. Who's wealthiest I don't know.
I know it's a long time ago now, but when John Britten built a world beater I'd assume you don't necessarily have to be that wealthy, but certainly very clever, to build a regular race winner.
With that statement in mind I watch with interest the Harris WCM Team and their future effort in Moto GP.
As for the AMAPR, show me why you think, in a non technical sense, why a 1500cc pushrod ac motor would be a fair competitor against an inline four ohc thou?
I don't believe lay men bike racing fans would see the fairness (either way) in campaigning such different engines against one another unless the power outputs were shown to be similar and the bikes weights were the same. Prove that and we might have another race series worth watching and not just in the US.
Rocket 
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Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:20 pm: |
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>>>Incidentally, Harley Davidson is a very large company too. Who's wealthiest I don't know.
I do.
At an imputed interest rate of 9%, Harley-Davidson could buy Aprilia with 2 days of intereest income on their cash holdings.
Or, 4 days of t-shirt sales.
Aprilia is a fabulously interesting and romantic company. Not until Ivano Beggio took the reins did Aprilia begin to look seriously at motorcycles, soon becoming one of the premiere firms among the 80+ moped manufacturers in Italy.
Aprilia today is a "fun" company to watch and the passion among their enthusiasts if refreshing, reminiscent of a Ducati day past.
In terms of size, comparing Aprilia to Harley-Davidson is a "TVR to General Motors" deal.
John Britten was gifted person. I still hurt over him and Erik Buell missing that first meeting. John, however, unlike Erik, never endeavored to produce numbers of motorcycles for commercial sale. I had dinner with a fellow who had two. If Buell could sell bikes at $50K a copy (or whatever he paid for them...I suspect it was up there) Buell's strategy and branding would be much different.
Erik Buell, I suspect, is quite focused on providing many of the attributes he so enjoys in a motorcycle PACKAGED into a reliable, enjoyable streetbike that can be sold in a commercially viable venture.
Interesting article I'm deep into studying "Can Entrepreneurs Scale"? Erik, I submit, is a rare exception.
Aprilia?...fun to watch and I love to listen to their owners. They seem to genuinely enjoy their motorcycles and that, dear friends, is what I was reminded in a letter from Torrance today, what "it is all about".
Court |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:36 pm: |
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Ben,
You are correct and I was mistaken, Kenny Roberts Jr. in only a ONE time MotoGP champion.
Court,
With all of your insight into Buell and the mother company - why is it that HD shows no interest in supporting a full factory road racing effort? If in 4 days they could purchase Aprilia with only sales of t-shirts - why not drop some doe and either revive the VR1000 program or develop a Buell racing effort that could compete on the world stage? Do you think that we will ever see a Buell on the podium of a future FIM, AMA, or MotoGP event? |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:39 pm: |
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The reason the AMA is screwing Buell is quite simple. Blake is right, they are totally committed to the Japanese.
They are committed to making money & they pack the stands when the big 4 are racing. When the Buells had the Pro thunder bike series the only thing that was packed were the washrooms & the food stands. I have been up to RA quite a bit for the races & every time the Buells & even the Ducs hit the track the stands emptied out. The only ones who watched were the die hard faithful Buell & Duc fans.
The Japanese are terrified of an American company getting recognized as a leader in sportbike technology.
I dont personally feel they are terrified of that at all. They have the backing, the $$ & the teams to play that "my bike is faster than yours" game all day long. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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I do.
At an imputed interest rate of 9%, Harley-Davidson could buy Aprilia with 2 days of intereest income on their cash holdings.
Or, 4 days of t-shirt sales.
I think it would take a bit more than that. I read an article on Aprilia & they sell somewhere in the range of 350,000 scooters a year. Thats a whole lotta little bikes. They are not the tiny little backwoods company that a lot of folks are lead to believe.
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Crusty
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:46 pm: |
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Just as an aside, was AMAPR biased towards the Japanese when they allowed the VR1000 to race as a "production" Superbike? |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 09:48 pm: |
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On a racing side note - I bet Austin Ducati is kicking theirselves in the ass for dropping Pascal and picking up No-Show Gobert. 4th in the championship last year with Picotte, currently in 29th with Gobert after a 7th place finish and 4 DNFs in 5 races.
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=5960 |
Lowlife
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:32 pm: |
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I read something in 'Cycle World' (I think) mentioning Aprilia. Dyna is right, they do sell well over a quarter million scooters. In fact the article kinda made things sound like they build sportbikes for sh*ts and giggles. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 10:39 pm: |
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They produce more bikes than Harley does..sure they arent all big massive cruisers but I bet they make a tidy little profit on each & every one of them. Take a lot more than 3-4 days of t-shirt sales to buy that company. |
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