| Author | Message | ||
     Joojoo |
So my new Uly is doing exactly what my XB12S used to do when nice and hot and under some load...pinging for a split second when I roll onto the throttle. After a search on Badweb, it seems that most 1203cc XB Buells will do this...so Im assuming Buell knows about it, and it will not cause any damage at all, throughout the life of the motor. Im running 91 octane fuel, Ill try 94.... Besides this, my bike runs amazingly well. I dont wanna mess with the timing, because I was also told by a mechanical engineer that when an engine is running optimally it will run slightly lean, and can ping just a little when under load. Has anyone had feedback come in from The Buell Corporation regarding this pinging? | ||
| Whodom |
Joojoo, I'm of the belief that split second pinging under adverse conditions (engine good and hot) with the engine under load won't cause any problems and it is a good indicator that your engine is tuned properly. The timing is as advanced as it can safely be which means the engine is performing optimally under normal conditions. I've noticed that my S3 does the same thing, and it's easy enough to back off the throttle slightly under these conditions and eliminate the pinging altogether. Once the engine cools down a little, it almost never pings. If you can get 93 or 94 octane fuel, it won't hurt to try that but I wouldn't worry about it. | ||
| Joojoo |
I agree Whodom, and a few engineer buddies of mine also agree. Do you think that remaining on the throttle (when I need to pass someone or during spirited riding) and letting it go through its "few pings" can cause any serious damage? I havent heard of any motors being opened up to find any damage from pinging/detonation in the Buell line... Cheers, Jack | ||
| 44mag2 |
Occasional pinging under extreme or adverse conditions is OK. Otherwise, it is NOT OK, and it will damage the engine. I have researched this extensively because my XB12X has a pinging problem that is severe when the weather is hot. I have written Buell, and they are actively working on the problem (or at least they will when I drop off the bike). Davo took some data showing the measured timing response is significantly advanced compared to the specification. It seems that the engines are too advanced ... maybe a requirement to meet emissions. I am working with Buell, and I will keep all of you updated. Here is what I have tried ... 1. Octane booster - reduces pinging, but does not eliminate it 2. Retard the static timing by 3 degrees - reduces pinging, but still pings on hot days. 3. Intake leak - no leak 4. TPS reset - no effect The next step is to combine the octane boost with the 3 degree's of retarded timing. However, this would just a stop-gap until Buell fixes the initial problem. I think that it would help if everybody with a pinging problem would contact Buell customer service. It would help expedite a factory solution. | ||
| 44mag2 |
FYI - My XB12X with 4100 miles on it just started eating oil. I suspect that the combustion chamber or rings may have been damaged from the ping. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, Are you still 1/2 way to the late side across the window? And pinging with fuel conditioner? | ||
| Aeholton |
I took my bike in for pinging a few months ago. Had the engine good and hot upon arrival at the dealer. Bike was pinging when I left the traffic light a few hundred yards from dealer. Told service adviser to have the technician to take it for a ride while it was still hot. Went looked around the showroom and then went and sat in the customer lounge. Two hours later the service adviser comes out and tells me my bike is ready. I ask him what they did. He looks down at the notes on the work order and it says rode bike 20 miles no pinging heard. I asked him when the tech rode it and he said he had just got back. Couldn't believe it. Then he had the nerve to tell me they were charging me for an hour of labor. I griped and complained to the service manager and he "no charge"d me. He then asked if I was satisfied. Bike was pinging on the way home. Upon arrival home, I drilled out the rivets on the cover and backed the plate adjustment off a millimeter or two. Since then it only pings when its been in a lot of stop and go traffic. When this happens, I accelerate very gently. | ||
| Snowscum |
Same ol crap I see. I gave up on my dealer with the pinging. I just ride it. F#$@ it. Ill keep it a few years then offload it. Maybe next year they will have a cure for it. Not holding my breath. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Here's an interresting observation on pinging. My bike never pinged at first. Then I installed the race kit including the race ECM. After that it pinged badly unless I used some fuel conditioner and even then it would still ping a little on acceleration. Now I have the stock ECM back on the bike but still have the race muffler and air filter on it. NO MORE PINGING!!! I believe the timing curves in the race ECM are pretty agressive and at least in my case is the cause of the pinging with the race ECM. I could probably de-tune the bike to make it run OK with the race ECM but I don't really see a need to go to all that trouble since it runs just fine with the stock ECM. I'm not looking to break any speed records for now so I'll just keep the race ECM for some time later when I can get it re-mapped to soften the timing curves a little. That way I can remain in semi stock configuration to satisfy the warranty guys at Buell. BC Steve | ||
| Aeholton |
Stevem123 - That is interesting. However, I noticed the opposite... I have less pinging since installing the race ECM. | ||
| Sanchez |
What does pinging sound like? I get a sort of clacking/clattering noise under acceleration when the bike's hot. | ||
| Alchemy |
Yes, on my new Uly (700mi)I get what sounds like valve clatter at certain RPMs. I also get an occasional "pop" out of the air filter area when first advancing throttle. It does not stall but stutters/hesitates and is unnerving when pulling into an intersection. I am hoping the 1000 mi service will resolve this. I am running Sunoco Ultra (93 oct) in a suburban area so there probably is blended fuels with alcohol etc. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Pinging sounds like a rattling in the engine. Kind of similar to putting some ball bearings in a can and shaking it. It is usually non-periodic and happens under load, when hot. Sanchez, it sounds like your bike is pinging. Valve clatter is more periodic, and usually not noticeable under load, because the engine noise overpowers the valve noise when accelerating. If you hear it mostly during acceleration, then it is probably ping. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Davo, I reset the timing to factory spec before adding the octane booster. I want to limit the changes to 1 variable at a time so I can pinpoint the optimal solution. I will retard the timing and add octane booster next. | ||
| Dr_greg |
Maybe it's because I just got a new helmet and it's quieter, but I've sure noticed my 12X pinging a lot recently (w/18K miles on it). And not just on hot days, either. During my morning commute when it's 60 degrees (F) it pings a LOT around 3000 rpm. Seems like almost all the time. Not good. Oil consumption seems fine. I'm going to retard the timing this weekend and see what happens. | ||
| 44mag2 |
All, If you have pinging problems, please contact Buell Customer Service so they know that many people are having issues. | ||
| Joojoo |
I find this interesting.....The Uly seems to ping if you gradually roll on the throttle. However, if you just quickly hit the throttle open instead of rolling into it you may find that it wont ping... cheers Jack | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, Try the 2.5 mm retard with no additive. I have been running that way for several thousand miles. Try it you will like it. Index the stock location on the CPS base plate. Leave the cover off the cone and go for a ride with your flat head screw driver. Keep moving the CPS counterclockwise until your ping goes away. Then look at how far you are form your stock index mark....and post it. Retarding should not hurt the engine. Rev limiters significantly retard engines at very high rpms in order to keep them from reving further. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Davo, I am dropping of the bike soon so Buell can work with the dealer to fix, so I will wait. Maybe they will re-map my timing curve. | ||
| 44mag2 |
If I reset the TPS so that the throttle is slightly open when I zero it, won't that make the mixture richer? If so, that might eliminate the ping. What do you think? | ||
| Davo |
I think the result will be the opposite. The ECM will trickle the same amount of gas and the throttle valve will be letting more air in. More air and the same amount of fuel will make you leaner. If you go to zero with your idle screw and show some numbers greater than zero and choose not to reset then you will run richer in closed loop ( mid range)......until the AFV finds out about your game and then back to 14.7 to 1 in open loop and that means anything 4000 rpm and higher. The TPS recalibration is not an efficient tuner's tool. Now with that said, if you manipulate the ET in order to side track the ECM into thinking the engine is always cold then you will run fatter (rich)!!! Of course the fan will never turn on either. If someone was to go this course they should hot wire the fan to a switch and have a dummy fan motor hooked up to the fan terminal so the ECM will be happy. There are a lot of dead fan motors out there to choose from. I have successfully tricked the fan at low ET to turn on sooner. I used a 200 ohm resister to ground to jump start the fan in order to avoid going to 428 F before normal fan on mode. 600-1000 ohms at the ECM ET terminal to ground will trick the ECM that you are running 300-340 F even when you are cooking along at 400F. There are some risks! | ||
| Snowscum |
Road up to Carter Lake after work today. Kathy Sabine Updated: 8/23/2006 5:31 PM Today's High: 95° I added some of that Rocket fuel that Harley sells and it pinged like it never has before. Even with the fan on it was wicked. So I will not using that stuff again. I had trouble keep up with the boyz because it loses power as well. On a positive note it runs like a bat out of hell on the morning commute. | ||
| Davo |
Snowscum, Did you post pinging issue AV rider? If so is your timing still stock? | ||
| Snowscum |
Davo, I haven't posted anything about the pinging on ADV in a while. I haven't done anything to it either. Im about ready to call Buell and bitch about it. I did get that survey and plan on elaborating on the subject. That and the drive belt covers. So if the rocket fuel made the octane go up, then if I would go to the lowest octane I can get it should help the ping right? No Davo Im not ready to mess with the timing myself yet. It will start to cool off here in Colorado pretty soon. | ||
| Davo |
Regardless of additives I would use the highest octane rated fuel that is available in your area. The ambient temperature is a factor but it is my opinion that there is still a tuning issue to tackle. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Snowscum, PLEASE call Buell about the pinging. I have called, and they are responsive. The more folks who call the better, so they will come out with an official factory fix. | ||
| Jim_sb |
I did not call Buell re the pinging, but I covered it extensively in my survey response. I would prefer a bike that does not ping while running on 87 octane. If that means "de-tuning" it so that it makes a few less HP that is fine with me. I am not a power glutton. My pinging is not constant but it can be reliably made to occur by whacking the throttle open at roughly 3000 rpm. If it doesn't hurt the bike then fine, it's just a minor irritant. If it is bad for the engine then Buell should do something about it. The ball is in their court. I mentioned it at my first service and the dealer said "bike is fine". Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Whodom |
It seems like the obvious long term and permanent solution to this problem is a knock sensor. These have been around a LONG time (my 1978 Buick Regal Sport with turbo 3.8L V-6 had one) and it couldn't be THAT expensive to add one to the design. Knock regulated computer control of the ignition timing would probably let the engine tolerate 87 octane fuel and still give optimum performance on 93 octane. It would also eliminate knocking under adverse conditions. | ||
| Davo |
I would like to see a system similar to the Delphi system which is on early Big Twin 88 engines.. The system is completely open loop and there is no O2 sensor. The only problem is that they may not be able to meet EPA requirements with that system. They are easily modified by after market systems like Power Commander. | ||
| Joojoo |
guys, there is no way that buell does not know, and has not extensively seen and tested this pinging. Im sure that they would not release a motor year after year with the same issue if it caused problems with the lifespan of the engine. Its just not in line with the engineering quality of the firm. My old xb12s pinged when hot and on the throttle. I traded it on my Ulysses with 20K on the clock. Still ran perfect. My Uly has the exact same thing happening. Im sure the factory test bikes did too... Who knows... Jack |
