| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Schemky: I embarassed to say that I couldn't find my Thunderslide kit. It's possible that I sold it for $50 a couple years ago. Sorry about that. Blake (wonderingwhatotherdelusionsI'mlivingunder) | ||
| Snowdave |
Anyone converted an M2 to DDFI? I just got the stuff and would like to know any special things to watch out for. Also the harness is from a 2001 X1, can I hide it just like that bike on my 99 M2, if so, how? I know, why would I convert from carb to DDFI, well, I am an engineer and I am convinced that I can make the bike run better with DDFI and my computer than I can with an age-old carburetor design. | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Mists of time job this one I'mn afraid, but someone else here will clarify? A friend had a 2000 X1 engine to put in his 1999 M2 (a carb on the X1 engine). What ever they did it wouldn't run properly. I recall ignition trigger or something being different between X1 and M2 engines. I realise you are doing the exact opposite, but it is something to ask questions about. HTH. Steve http://ukbeg.com steve@ukbeg.com | ||
| Blake |
Dave: The word "masochist" is coming to mind here. In addition to what Steve said... I'm sure you are aware that you'll need to add an oxygen sensor bung to your header, no big deal, that. But did you consider that without the "Race" ECM ($$), the DDFI will be vastly inferior performance-wise to a dyno tuned carbureted system? Also, since the fuellie bikes use more aggressive cams than your M2, you may have trouble getting the DDFI to run well unless you also change your cams. And to restate Steve's point, your M2 may not have the proper timing sensor system to work with DDFI. Though I do know for a fact that Neil's X1 is running just dandy with his carburetor conversion. I'm just not sure if the reverse can be taken for granted wrt the timing sensor operation. As I understand DDFI, the ECM firmware interface requires proprietary codes/software. Unless you are some kind of genius hacker, you probably will not be able to work on it yourself, or even reset the throttle position sensor (TPS) yourself, something that MUST be done upon installation of any ECM (more $$). Dave: I applaude your initiative, but I would personally NEVER consider such an endeavor myself. Even if you are able to install and calibrate a DDFI system on your M2 wihtout involving the pros (which I doubt), there is just WAY more downside to the DDFI in terms of reliability/complexity compared to any slight (and I am skeptical of the possiblity of even that) improvement you MIGHT be able to find in performance over a carbureted system. I'd STRONGLY suggest taking some time to really learn the intricacies of carburetor operation/tuning rather than jumping off the edge towards DDFI, not knowing how far you may have to fall. I think you have vastly underestimated the complexity, time, and expense needed to do what you are saying. The bottom line is that you want a stronger engine right? Firstly, if it hasn't been done already, DYNO TUNE it!! That's not enough? Then get yourself a race header/muffler system and have your bike DYNO TUNED by an expert. Then if you still want more performance, get some some high quality flowed heads with matching pistons and a set of performance cams, oh... and have it DYNO TUNED.  Then again, maybe I'm being too pessimistic. NAAAAH!!  Blake | ||
| Chrisg |
Snowdave, I think you are the first to make the attempt. It might be easier and cheaper to get an S-3 and throw on the M2 bodywork,but maybe less fun. I doubt the different cams will give you any problems. Jose Q.'s FI S-3 recently got M-2 cams and seems to be running great. I'm sure he'll chime in soon. As far as the electronics go, I think the wiring harness and sensors will be yyouur biggest problems. A lot depends on the year of tour bike. M-2s didn't get head temp sensors until 2001 (actually late production 2000's, but they used a different wiring harness.) Anyway, I suspect that the 2001 M-2 wiring harness is more or less identical to the FI bikes (with the air flow sensor etc. wiring simply unused) so you wouldn't have much problem. Earlier models probably don't have harnesses that would support the sensors required for FI. I'm not sure about the cam position sensor issue. Best bet would be to sit down with the parts manuals/service manuals for your year M-2 and one of the FI bikes to see the differences. For programming, I beleive the power commander lets you download FI maps off the computer, so presumably there is a way to write your own. This can only modify the stock map witin a certain range, however, so if you do major engine mods this may not work for you. | ||
| Anon_R |
SnowDave, It can and has been done. Contact the service department at Sauk Prairie Buell, one of their service techs did the job on his bike and can tell you what to watch out for. I believe he did it on a 98 M2. R | ||
| Tims |
Say, any of you Buelligans selling a Buell EFI throttle body? Email if you do. Thanks | ||
| José_Quiñones |
SnowDave, Is the snow getting to you?  That would make an excellent "how to" article for Battle2win or something like that. If Anon R says it can and has been done, then go for it! I agree with Chrisg, messing with the stock or race ecm is hard unless you reverse engineer it, because Buell doesn't sell the software to just anybody. My bike is running great so far with the M2 cams. I hope to dyno it sometime in the spring. I have an unusual setup: F.I. Race ECM, K&N Air Filter, M2 cams, but a Stock header/muffler. The power delivery from 2500 to redline is smooth, it doesn't have the "hit" at 5,000 rpm like with the X1 cams. The passing power in 4th and 5th gear is awesome, but I lost 10 mpg and about 20 miles of range out of a typical gas tankful. | ||
| Blake |
José: Was it the race ECM or the Sportster/Cyclone cams that hurt your fuel efficiency? | ||
| Blake |
I'm guessing it was the race ECM.  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Yes, the race ecm and my wrist! | ||
| Jerome |
Snowdave, I think you are expecting too much from sensors, electronic and injectors. If it's going to be a game yard for your long weekends, fine. If it's to increase hp numbers, than I agree with Blake, it's probably easier and more efficient to just throw X1 cams on your M2 and to put a race header and can. Good carb tuning is possible, especially if you go for a manual slide carb. I've installed an A/F ratio gauge on my M2, the cost was something like $200 (O2 sensor + gauge) and I get excellent a/f mixture at all rpm and throttle ranges. I'd be curious to see how much extra hp I would get instead if I installed a DDFI... IMHO the main reason why DDFI gets more and more common on bikes is mostly a question of EPA regulations or sort of. With DDFI, you can stay close to stoechiometric conditions in safe control, which is good for pollutant emissions, less good for power (max power is not at stoechiometric). With carbs, bike makers must keep a large margin with stoechiometric conditions if they don't want to see customers back every day with a piston hole. Therefore they tune carbs pretty rich, which if too much, is not good either for power, nor for pollutant emissions... Food for discussion. | ||
| Snowdave |
Everyone, thanks for the input. I will definitely get in touch with the tech at Sauk Prairie. As to all the other comments, I have tuned both carb and fuel injection. With the precision that FI has to offer, you truly can end up with a better system. It just takes a little more tech and research. When was the last time your carb adjusted to the altitude, compensated for engine heat soak or just crappy gas? All these and more are possible with FI and I am looking forward to it. I already have a well tuned carb with a jet kit and a thunderjet, but I want more....or maybe the snow is just getting to me and I am bored. Either way, it's cheap and it will be a fun experiment. | ||
| Ocbueller |
Alls I know is my X1 will walk away from my S1. The only difference between them being the Thunderstorm heads and F.I.. I would be interested in any F.I. conversion successes. It seems the biggest drawback is the unavailability of software to tweak the injection for different combos. Buell are you listening? There is a market for software and tuneable hardware. SteveH | ||
| Moperfserv |
Changing to FI from carb is a good idea. The larger throttle alone should give gains. Since you're an engineer, I'll assume that you aren't doing it just because you got the whole set-up cheap. If you aren't going to map or pseudo-map it you'll have to match all of the components. It sounds like you're going to do it right, in which case component matching shouldn't be necessary. We're waiting for FI components for Roland's seperate inlet S2. In spite of having to completely map it, the flexibility and performance, should be easier than fighting with the carbs. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
The reason your X1 beats your S1 is the heads, not the FI. Good luck. I wouldn't touch a buell fi setup unless they make the software available (which they don't/won't). Even the scanalyzer can't alter fuel mapping...your stuck w/ what you get and hack jobs like spoofing sensors. I hate to tell you, modern CV carbs (when properly setup) DO compensate for altitude, heat soak is not an issue, blah, blah, blah. The only 2 advantages to FI are (a) more precise metering of fuel - which helps mfgrs w/ mpg requirements; and (b) more accurate fuel curve control - but none of these provide HP, and rarely even provide a better 'feel'...there's a reason why mfgrs spend large sums making FI systems feel like a carb setup as the abrupt on/off unsettles the bike. ...oh, and the buell throttle body is no larger than a regular old CV40 carb...so no hp there either. Nor would there be if it was larger. Larger does not always equal better. Without the heads and cams to need more flow, you'll just kill intake charge velocity...hell i got a little of that going on w/ my CV44 carb (as it's just a tad too much carb - but I was planning ahead, whenever I have to touch the heads, they're going to Nallins for some work) in the 2-3000 rpm range, you can 'feel' it...hard to describe, but it's there. If BMC would sell the software and data cable that they field techs use, I'd go back to FI in a heartbeat. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Interesting, just read the notes at the top re: CV40 setup...holy cow, a 190 or 195 main??? Geez, I run between a 185 or 190 (i'm still playing w/ needles a bit) on my CV44 setup and that's right at slightly rich. Anyone ever actually dyno that setup w/ a wideband O2??? Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Ara |
I run a 205 main and a 45 pilot in my '97 S3 with a stage 1 Dyno-Jet kit. Stock, non-Thunderstorm heads, too. Excellent results. My throttle response is immediate and I get between 56 and 61 mpg without fail. There IS one trick - don't use the huge accelerator pump tower that comes in the kit. I've had excellent success using the standard accelerator tower from a stock Evolution Big Twin. The orifice in the tower from the kit is excessively large and floods the engine when you crack the throttle, while the Big Twin tower is midway between the stock Buell/XL and Dyno-Jet kit towers and is an excellent middle-ground solution. I run a K&N filter, no filter shroud, no snorkel, and the stock XL carb velocity ring. I'm so pleased with the setup that I wouldn't consider making the conversion to FI. Russ | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Unless you typically cruise at WOT, the main won't have much affect on your mpg. It's funny though, goto a decent sportbike shop w/ a dyno and they've got exhaust gas analyzers and/or wideband O2's for tuning. I've *NEVER* seen a har[d]ley shop (or a dyno chart of a harley/buell w/ a/f values) w/ either! Just cause the plugs aren't soot black, or billowing clouds of smoke aren't pouring out of your pipe, doesn't mean your not rich. Plug reading is a ballpark, at best. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Aaron |
The main affects a pretty big range. That's why it's always good to get it right, for top end power, then do the needle. The a/f monitor is a $2750 option for a Dynojet. Some shops have it, many don't. It saves time because you know which way to go, it takes out the trial and error. But it saves 4x the time on a 4 carb bike, so it's quite a bit more essntial for non-HD shops. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
As always, Aaron corrects my over-generalizations...thanks. Holy cow, $2750??? Yes, wideband O2's are expensive, but they charge that much??? Another good, and less expensive approach is to use EGT and Cyl. Head Temp. Gauges are readily available, thermocouples are easy to install for testing purposes...might not go directly into the dynojet software, but still much more useful than trial and error. ========== Back to the topic at hand. Now if you REALLY want to go FI, buy a Motec system, it would readily adapt to the buell bits. Those are some trick bits, fully customizable software, hell, they even loan you the use of a wideband O2 for tuning purposes when you buy one!!! If only I had the money. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| F16hd |
I'm getting a 42 Mikuni for my '02 M2, and I am interested in info that anyone might have regarding jetting recommendations etc...or tuning advice. BTW, Does the carb make a big impact on overall performance by itself, or do you really need a modified exhaust to get any meaninful gain?? Harry in AZ | ||
| Aaron |
Harry: I use an HSR42 on a largely stock M2. Not so much for the power gain, which is only a couple hp on top, but more for the tunability. And you can change the main jet in seconds. And it improves throttle response. It's a nice piece and it works good. The CV actually is a pretty good carb too and I've seen'em pull upwards of 100hp on bikes. So it's not that much of a constraint at that level. I'm sure as the level goes up, it becomes more and more of a problem though. | ||
| Henrik |
Speaking of A/F ratio: I've been looking into O2 sensor/meter options and came across this link (click on "Store"). Seems like a nice set-up for temporary mounting for tuning purposes. Question: how steady a reading will I get from such a set-up? I've heard that you only see a constant reading at WFO. How about testing for acceleration at constant 1/2 throttle, cruising at different RPMs etc. Jerome, care to share your experience? Would this work as a "poor mans" dyno? Also, as far as I've found, the thread of the standard O2 sensor bung is 18 x 1.5 mm. How long is the thread and sensor part of an O2 sensor? Is the stock bung "deep" enough to keep the sensor from protruding too far into the header - or does that not matter? Henrik | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Henrik, Check these links out when you have time. I've been thinking about the same thing. K&N Air-Fuel Monitors The Dyno Shop S'later, -JW:>) | ||
| Blake |
SnowDave: "I already have a well tuned carb with a jet kit and a thunderjet, but I want more..." Just my smartass opinion again...  The only "more" you will get will be "more" problems. Like I said, you will need the race ECM, which alone costs near $200; then on top of that you'll need the race header if you want to really let teh engine breath efficiently. I would suggest that you try the race header first, then if you still want to tinker with swapping your carb for DDFI, by all means have at it. If you do have at it, would you please post a diary/log of the endeavor here? Just create a new topic on the quick board. | ||
| Rocketman |
I saw that K&N A\F package at the Bike Show last year. It was way over priced IMO at £110. I have to say, the quality looked pretty awful. Cheap plastic box and cheap wiring. It even had a Scotch Lock included rather than a quality connector. Maybe it's worth the price if you're really gonna see the benefit of using it, but on a Buell, I reckon it'll shake to bits in a short space of time. £25 and I might have bought it just to try Rocket in England | ||
| Jerome |
Henrik : my own experience with an on-board a/f ratio gauge installed on my M2 since more than one year is that it's an excellent tool, worth doing the investment. Yes, you get steady readings at steady throttle openings and steady load on the bike... With a manual-slide carb like a Mikuni ! With the CV carb, inertial effects due to vacuum changes and their effect on the slide position made more variability but it's still useable. The good thing of the a/f ratio gauge is that it tells you if you're rich, lean or stoechiometric. Still, don't ask too much from it. The curve relating O2 sensor voltage to a/f mixture is absolutely not linear, there's a large jump at stoechiometric. I use an Autometer Phantom gauge which includes 20 leds. I find the first two and last two leds to be useless. I think an a/f ratio gauge can be kept all time on your Buell, it's not bad looking, it's fun to watch, and it tells you when something changes in your tuning. Example : I've rewelded my SuperTrapp muffler a few weeks ago after it sawed itself at the front tube inlet. Thus I also changed the packing. The effect on a/f ratio was huge ! Due to bad weather right now in the french Alps, I've not yet re-tuned my Mikuni, but it looks like I'll have to put richer mixture nearly everywhere compared to my previous tuning... Just because free-flowing in the muffler has changed with the new packing !!! On the long term, I think it does not replace dyno tuning by an experienced mechanic, but it allows you to stay pretty close from good tuning for a reasonable investment. Food for thoughts. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I'll second that. I used a autometer phantom too, never had a lick of trouble (other than reading it in bright sunlight). There is some variability in readings, but not much, and surely doesn't impact it's usefulness. Once your close to a good setup, it's really quite fun to play with different setups and see what (and where) effect it has....kinda cool to to 'see' that 1 thin washer fill that hole you 'felt'. I don't leave mine on all the time, just cause *I* think it looks tacky. But, I seem to average 2 or 3 times a year that I'll put it on and run around for a day or 2 just to recheck everything. Even if I didn't already have the gauge laying around...it would of been worth the $40. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Rempss |
You might also try www.gadgetseller.com , he sells stock & "full throttle" gauges. Also has some good info for tuning at WOT. Jeff |
