I wanted to remove the resonator but didn't want to alter the airflow too much.
As many of you know .. the lower pipe pipe on the resonator is completely sealed. I even stuck a Leaf Blower on the end of it after I removed it to verify. And it ends where it meets the muffler. What it is is an 11 inch long 1/4 wavelegth resonator to reduce drone. No exhaust flows out of it.
I bought a set of 2" to 1 7/8" reducers to replace stock resonator. I had a plug welded into to one of them so exhaust will only flow out the upper muffler outlet same as factory.
I did run it with both pipes open at first and it is louder than stock. But with the lower hole plugged .. it is not even discernible as louder when riding.
This pic of a slide from the 1190RX release in Orlando last October sure makes it look like the lower pipe is dead-ended in the secondary muffler:
The question is- how did the mod affect the tuning? The volume of that secondary chamber was picked to flatten out the power curve and give strong mid-range torque. Doing away with the chamber undoubtedly affects the power band, and possibly in a bad way.
Only a Dyno could tell if anything is lost. I still have to "hold on tight" once I hit 7K RPM .. so it still pulling hard resonator or not.
I could maybe see pulse waves helping if it was a straigh pipe exhaust .. put you have the head pips, catalytic converter and the muffler before the resonator tube .. the pulse can travel back through all that??
I basically turned my 11" resonator pipe into a 1 inch pipe.
Lots of car and truck folks use 1/4 wave resonators to get rid of drone ... none of them indicate any HP increase by using one.
If you blow it up or melt it down, I'll give you a thousand for it, so I can put my TW200 motor in it. Think of all the luggage space I'll have under the air box and in that fairing. And the extra fuel should net me over a 300 mile range easy. I'd be one insane hooligan. I like your exhaust mod.
So Court when the aftermarket get a hold of it like pipes and power commanders and such it voided the warranty?? Wow my Hondas have aftermarket systems and Honda doesn't flinch to warranty anything on either of them
^ They already have one available for the 1190. IANAL, but common sense would suggest installing an aftermarket exhaust along with a tuning package would NOT void the warranty, ASSUMING you actually tuned it properly, ie; not too rich or lean to cause damage to the engine.
Do I want to get in a fight over this? Nope. If I make an exhaust available for it, just like on the 1125, I recommend tuning it properly to not void the warranty. My target buyer is someone who intends to race it as it was intended and to have it tuned properly.
Little bit of difference in aftermarket replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts. In days of old, manufacturers wanted owners to buy all replacement parts from them and no one else. This was shot down. Manufacturers still have a foot to stand on when it comes to parts or modifications that result in damage or violation or emission (noise or pollution) laws. To a given extent, the manufacturer needs to prove the modification or part is what caused the failure.
We deal with it a lot of the time when it comes to cars and trucks that come in our shop.
Example, wrangler comes in shop with customer installed lift kit. Proper consideration was not taken for front axle "droop" when front axle is unloaded when off road. Front drive shafts now sits/rubs on exhaust pipe and burns protective boot on driveshaft. Not warranty.
Customer owns truck and has rock go through radiator. Cust replaces with aftermarket radiator. 3 months later engine has internal failure. Dealer must be able to prove that either radiator caused damage or that vehicle was over heated when rock damaged radiator. Gut feeling or hunch is not good enough. No respectful dealer or manufacturer would say no warranty.
The guys at EBR have already made it known to the public (where possible with out individual customer notification) and have told dealers (I assume all dealers based on conversation I had with mine) that it is recommended "do not remove with stock ecm".
This is similar the what some manufacturers have done with diesel engines. Owners manual states use oem style air filter only. Most dealers have at some point in time been told to check for high flow air filters when engine performance or excessive blow by present. That if engine has damaged cyl walls due to high amounts of dirt and sand that have "sand blasted" the cyl walls, that there will be no warranty for the engine repair. In the event the dealer completes repair while knowing the aftermarket high flow air filter was installed, the dealer will be responsible for the repair cost because manufacturer will decline payment.
Changing a turn signal wouldn't, under the act, be a reason to deny a warranty claim on a motor. Using Non manufacture brand oil (UNLESS: The mfg provides it at no charge) won't void an engine motor as long as the oil meets spec.
Changing a pipe on an 1190 would EASILY provide basis for denial of a warranty claim.
LOL - HD had 6R12 plugs for a long time - in mid 2000 they changed up so that all bikes ran 10R12 - lol - so you tell yourself the 6R12 must still be a good alternative for a tad more power. - I'll just say - melt downs cost even with warranty protection - without - your screwed. EZ
Is it really that hard for you guys to believe that altering the exhaust could adversely affect the engine? That engine is putting out over 2-1/2 HP per cubic inch. For those of us that can remember when it was a BIG DEAL for a naturally aspirated engine to put out just 1 HP per cubic inch, that power level is astounding. I imagine that every aspect of that engine is fine-tuned to a razor edge, and that altering a major component could throw the whole balance off.
13.4 to 1 compression ratio, 20 levels of predictive traction control are just a few of the technical reasons for really wanting to have the exhaust flow and ecu calibrated to each other. Tune pipes have long been used on two strokes to increase power, specifically torque across a given range of rpm. Four strokes typically have sought hp and not torque so 1/4 waves are usually to control drone. The dyno plot on my RX for A/F is pristinely flat across the whole rev range and the torque has no dips any where. its actually shockingly flat for both on the 1190.
Normally you have one or the other; peaks in the A/F to smooth out the torque curve or dips in the torque to maintain smooth A/F. Alot bikes achieve this with exup valves and or variable length intakes. The 1/4 wave resonator is a simple solution to this issue.
Then there is the whole noise issue. The EBR with resonator is only 3db quieter at 10ft than without. But the character of the sound is changed so that there is less energy in the 840hz and up range. The resonator kills some of the highs in favor of a deeper sound. Result is you can still hear your own rpms while you're setting someone up for the pass. The locals don't get as mad and you pass tech at Laguna.
Its my understanding from talking with a few folks at EBR that it took some convincing of the man himself to get it on there in the first place and it was reluctantly embraced only after the benefits were proven. That said when the race ecu is finally available I'll be getting one.
Its sort of like the wind screen and rear plate mount. Just looking at them I felt like there were better solutions, but after seeing the fluid modeling for both, the math doesn't lie. They really perform best as is.
>>>Wow my Hondas have aftermarket systems and Honda doesn't flinch to warranty anything on either of them
A Honda CBR motor is far more forgiving and light years less evolved in terms of sophistication.
In addition . . . there is a chasm between "can deny" and "will deny". We did warranty, at Buell band Harley-Davidson, for some pretty stupid shit folks did with their bikes. It got charged to "goodwill".
I doubt you could damage a Honda by changing a pipe and you are smart enough and experienced enough to know that changing the pipe requires proper retuning.
If you change the pipe on an 1190 you WILL damage the motor and it WILL be expensive.
If you think you don't have to prove your mods didn't break something before a manufacturer honors a warranty, you are kidding yourself.
A warranty is only as good as the dealer and manufacturer standing behind it. They hold all the cards, and they have a million ways they can screw you if they decide that's what they want to do.
When they do screw you, you can likely spend $30,000 and 10 years to successfully litigate and recover $3000 and a weeks worth of labor. You can call that a victory if you want, but you won't be fooling us.
HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING - you alter the pipe on an EBR 1190 . . . the motor goes pop.
It is up to YOU (and the attorneys it will require) to PROVE (that's a high standard . . not to be confused with "I think" or "a guy at my dealer told me" the the modification did NOT cause, or contribute, to the failure.
It's you and your attorneys against the EBR Engineering staff with their 3 years of test data . . . .
Hypothetically . . . good luck.
I always like to ask the question . . . . . "if a simple, couple hundred $$ mod would improve performance . . . how did an ant ire team of enthusiast/engineers miss it during development?"
You guys do realize this is an ECM with fuel injection .. not a carburetor. Wide band O2 sensors and the ECM can surely handle slight variations in air flow .. and I do mean slight - the amount of intake air has not been altered ... and I am using a single pipe for output same as factory. Muffler and catalytic converter are still intact and those are the primary exhaust restrictions creating back pressure..
Any parameters too far out of range (lean, rich, O2 voltage, blah, blah) will surely set a check engine light. The ECM will keep engine STOICH or at target A/F ratio .. if the ECM can't do it .. there will be a check engine light.
Narrow band not wide band. It only functions I'm closed loop in a relatively small rpm vs load range. It has very limited fuel correction outside of closed loop. Closed loop on a car covers just about all loads and rpms once at operating temp with the exception of WOT. It's your bike, your call. If you are confident that it will cause no damage and you are confident that if there is damage, your dealer will back you, more power to you. When I get my ecm and new tips, I will pull out my bore scope and look around a bit. I am curious on how everything is plummed. I know looking down the tail pipe, you can see holes drilled the whole length into secondary resinator.
Again using my KDX-200 as an example, I went from a 12 inch circumference expansion chamber header to a 14 inch circumference expansion chamber header, without changing the exhaust pipe or outlet, and there was a day and night difference in power delivery and an absolute need to rejet.
I realize two strokes are the "extreme" end of the spectrum in terms of exhaust changes. But I have to suspect a 185 HP twin motor that can get 50 MPG is at the extreme end as well...
If somebody does sort it though, and can get to the point where they safely can eliminate that side pipe at only minor sound and performance impacts, that would be great. The bike looks SO good with just an under bike exhaust.
Like I said, I'll check it out more with a bore scope once it's off. If it dies "dead end" that does not rule out holes drilled on side of pipe internal to resinator in a manner similar to outlet pipe.
A few hundred hours with a 4 gas exhaust analyzer, good TIG welder, and the ability to reprogram the ECM would probably be enough to develop a safe setup that would only loose a little power and add a little noise. Nowhere near EPA/CARB compliant, but close enough that it isn't too offensive to too many people, and it won't hurt the bike.
I'm not saying that flippantly. Somebody ought to do it. Just don't understimate how much distance lies between here and there.
Even just a few hours with a dyno and the gas analyzer would be very informative. Maybe the bike *can* adjust enough as is.
A Honda CBR motor is far more forgiving and light years less evolved in terms of sophistication.
Are you hearing your self type ?? lol Thats about as ridiculous of a comment I have ever heard. Honda not sophisticated. For one bullet proof and two how well are they doing racing ?? Court put away the pom poms.
Hmmm "the Honda motor is far more forgiving and light years less evolved in terms of sophistication." Ah yes and no.
The current CBR1kRR engine runs lower compression and is not tuned to nearly the same level of its designed peak performance so its not operating as close to the edge as the 1190, thus it can endure a wider margin of sub optimal gas flow equalization without injury. Other than that mechanically speaking, they are both sublime in their simplicity. Swirl induction isn't new, its a 1940's solution to big piston high performance. Worked then and it works now. What is different is the 1190's predictive traction control. The Honda has no such technology (yet). The operation of the TC and its tolerances and input parameters are still known only to EBR and they appear to be discouraging deleting the resonator. That said to each his own. It's your bike and your money. One has to pay the cost to be the boss. At this point on this subject, we don't know what that cost if any will be. I'm glad someone besides/instead me is willing to take the risk as I'm curious about the results.
Buels have a long history of multi function dictating form. The res serves multiple purposes in sculpting the exhaust note, boosting mid range torque on a high reving high hp engine, and optimizing gas flow to help clear a huge combustion chamber. If the guy who pioneered, championed, engineered and was most vocally committed to under bike exhaust thinks its worth having, I'm inclined to listen to him. I'd rather see work on a lighter version of the actual muffler, the 1/4 wave can stay, lets just drop some weight.
I changed oil today … was a little past the 620 mile first oil change. Easy job .. although messy.
Went for a ride and got 3 DTC's - Front O2 sensor fault, Front 02 sensor heater fault, IAT sensor fault. I was at only around 4K RPM cruising when they popped up.
The DTC's cleared themselves after another minute of riding.
For those that don't know .. my RX spent a month in the shop with 80 miles on it due to DTC's similar to above. Multiple parts were replaced and dealer put another 60 miles on it to verify the repairs. So I have ridden almost 500 miles with no DTC and now these pop up.
So …. I put the the Resonator back on .. just in case I need to bring it back in. :-)
Gonna ride to work tomorrow about 50 miles round trip and see if I get DTC's again.
It looks 1000 times better! Since many people seem to agree with that I'd be surprised if something from ebr wasn't in the works. I've heard rumor that two aftermarket exhaust guys are working on it. I'd love to see that done on a naked ebr!
Those are odd error codes for removing a resonator... but I guess the ECM doesn't have much to go on. It knows something is going on but has to guess.
I guess it could see a mix that it outside of the envelope it is willing to try and adapt for, and when it sees it, it would be most reasonable to conclude that the O2 sensor is giving bad data. If it sees bad data early on, it might first throw the O2 heater warning, then after warm up if it sees bad data it then throws the normal O2 warning. Then it throws in the IAT sensor because it could just as well be a result of that.
So I guess it could make sense.
But a custom ECM probably could sort it safely (with an increase in noise and loss in power, which many people would be happy to accept). It's just a lot of work to get there.
And did I mention how GOOOOOD your bike looks without that side pipe?
Maybe the AX will bring a new fuel map and new exhaust that is contained under the bike. Down a bit on peak power, up a bit on low end torque, no side pipe sticking out. On the AX that would make sense because you don't want to give up so much luggage space just to get 185 HP as opposed to 170 HP. That would be the wrong trade off for a sport or naked superfighter, but the right trade off for an adventure bike.
If it has not been done yet, removed connectors for sensor that you have a fault code for, clean connector and reinstall. Very small "bottle brush" works wonderfully. I have seen a bunch "repaired" by doing this.
If its bad and its gonna void warranty why is Hals HD at the Iron Horse hotel with this brand new bike .??
Y'all gotta read what's written:
"EBR will be showcasing some snorting terrors at Hal's EBR//Hal's Harley-Davidson this weekend (Thursday - Monday). Come get ya some!! — at The Iron Horse Hotel."
The fact that EBR is running a demo event at this location at this time says to me they're well aware of what's going on. Furthermore, Hal's has previously referenced an EBR exhaust that was to be revealed in late July.
But even if not the Bazazz system is better then most if not all factory systems.
The Bazazz's are certainly more adjustable. My favorite in terms of function is still Aprilias APRC. I run mine on level 3 just about all the time and get the "Hey man I just saved you back there" light on really hard corner exits or hard launches in 1-3, but NO wheelies! If I want to wheelie I have to ask it. On lvl 1 and 2 its fairly easy to destroy a rear tire and leave black lines all over the place, but the front definitely comes up way easier.
The Bazz systems are really good but take forever to install and get set up.
The Bazz systems are really good but take forever to install and get set up.
Yeah I have to agree with you. I have a friend that worked for Gemini (Jordan) now with Yosh that helped with the dyno after the Fuel controller from Bazazz and quick shifter. He wants me to do the traction control but I just haven't pulled the switch for the green light yet. The bike runs sensational though after the tuning it got.