| Author | Message | ||
     Blackbelt  |
This is all just steming from the fact that society today is all F.U.B.A.R.'d up... Too many Bleeding heart people (i mean that in a good way) want the laws to change and people to get a "fair" trail. Well i am all and good for a fair trial, but it is because of the judical system that is in place today that some of these morons do the things they do, NOT MUCH PUNISHMENT. True the judical system does work, when the lawyer isn't a jerk that is just out for money. My parents had a friend that had a burglar brake into their house, while they were asleep in their bed, the dummy crawled into a window THAT HE BROKE! and sliced his inner theigh on the glass. I WAS LAUGHING MY AZZ OFF FOR ABOUT A WEEK! Then 1 month later they got a call from an AZZHOLE lawyer that accually took his case to SUE MY PARENTS FRIENDS. Here is the scary part, THEY HAD TO PAY HIM $12,000 OUT OF THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY!!! TO PAY FOR HIS HOSPITOL STAY! WTF!?!?!?! Well their lawyer had this to say "at least they didn't have to pay for pain and suffering" THEY NEVER GOT OUT OF THEIR BED!!! He did it all on his own accord, and still won $12,000. THAT IS F%$KED UP!... that is the state of our judical system.. it isn't based on Wrong and Right. It is based on who can Who can prove their point better and with more Panache....... I don't trust the court system much at all...and if you come into my house to rob me.. you get to meet my friend .45 and/or multiple Katana blades, or just a good ol fashion beeting. That is my 2 cents worth... and now back to your origonal post....lol | ||
| Jlnance  |
Well their lawyer had this to say "at least they didn't have to pay for pain and suffering" Given what you say, I would have to conclude that their lawyer is an incompetent idiot. | ||
| Brucelee |
Not to put too fine a point on stats, but you have all heard the one that one woman in 9 or 11, will get breast cancer in her lifetime. Well, it actually is true for the women who live to be 90. However, since the average age at death for women in the US is around 78, the real number is much much lower. Now, the American Cancer Society was caught with this whopper about 10 yrs ago, but justified the deception, saying that they wanted to keep woman motivated to get preventive screenings. So, the lie is justified for the "greater good." As if the real number was not motivating enough I guess. So, statistics are just, data! | ||
| Henrik  |
Attempted rapes count as rapes ... Mere chance made that distinction - the perpetrator certainly didn't. And the traumatic after effects on the victim are not that much different. Dude, you are including male victims too. Gender shouldn't play into it IMHO. I'll give you that my original statement pertained to women in particular and in that perspective male victims shouldn't be included. And even given your "only" 90,000 completed rapes/year it's still more than 1 woman raped every 6 minutes. Stats aside, my original gripe was the "feeling less sorry" issue. Let me try to explain why (I think) that is wrong: 1) by feeling even the slightest less sorry for the victim, you're granting that you think that *maybe* it was just a little bit her fault. It can never be her fault. Rape is Rape. No means No. 2) By conceding that *maybe* the victim had a bit of fault, you're granting the perpetrator, that maybe it's not all his fault ... "But Your Honor - seeing her ankles just made my testosterone and desire for violence shoot up. Nothing I could do about it ... not my fault really." Taking the "feeling less sorry" to the extreme, maybe if a prostitute was raped on her way home from work, while wearing her work attire, it wouldn't be rape at all? Point is - there is no "feeling less sorry" without feeling the perpetrator was less wrong! Is that really your opinion? Besides, any other disease affecting 1 in 20 of the population would be considered an epidemic and we'd be spending billions to try to eradicate it. Tick, tock ..... Henrik (Message edited by Henrik on February 18, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Doughnut, "That is an inaccurate statement." No, it isn't. That statement was a parenthetical reference to myself and is 100% accurate. I am no rapist, and I have never ever hit a woman in anger. And please do read more carefully in the future. Your words matter. Henrik, I disagree that feeling less sympathy for a victim implies that I feel less abhorent towards the perpetrator. I reject that entirely. Like I said, each deserve the same justice. I feel less sorry for a snake bite victim who was toying with the snake versus one who was bitten out of the blue. There is evil in the world. If we toy with it, we risk being bitten. To ignore that reality and put oneself at risk is foolish and unfortunate and often a hard lesson. I don't distinguish between the evildoers, but I do see a difference between those who choose to toy with evil versus those who shun it. Good point on the rape rate versus medical epidemic. Castrating sex offenders might be a good start. | ||
| Vegasbueller |
Henrik: I couldn't have posed a better argument myself. I have been away for a few days and this was one of the last arguments I ever thought I would find here. My wife and I are somewhat involved in the "anti domestic violence" and rape crisis assitance movements in the Las Vegas area. She has made contacts around the world in doing this. I for one think that rape should be a death penalty offense. What many people don't realize is that rape, for many women (and men as well I would assume) is a death penalty. Just because the rapist didn't "complete" the act makes it no less of a rape. The mental after effects that linger for a lifetime lead many victims to chronic mental illness and worse. The offender, he gets jail time, parole, and possibly castration. The argument that one "deserves what she gets" because of the way she was dressed is one that gets me more than any. It is very shallow minded for one to think that any person deserves to be violated because of the choice in clothing. The "no means no" mantra is only a beginning. No means no at any point in the game people! Nick | ||
| Brucelee |
"I for one think that rape should be a death penalty offense. What many people don't realize is that rape, for many women (and men as well I would assume) is a death penalty." This is INTERESTING logic (or non-logic). You are saying that because this battery (legal term) has great negative meaning to the victim, the assailant should be put to death. Hmmmm, so the standard is "how does the victim feel about the crime." Using that subjective standard, we could apply the death penalty to just about any assault one could imagine. Think about it! No one is saying that rape is a minor assault, it certainly is a major one. However, the rape industry has elevated this crime in a very politically correct way. This is similar in approach to how the breast cancer industry has pumped this disease vs. say prostate cancer. Check the data on this one sometime! To wit, in most states if a man killed you while robbing your house, the death penatly would not even be on the table. So, your dead, he or she lives. But, if he raped her....., you see where I am going. "Just because the rapist didn't "complete" the act makes it no less of a rape. " This is simply nonsense! Again, because I "almost got raped, I actually did." "The mental after effects that linger for a lifetime lead many victims to chronic mental illness and worse" That can be said for any assault. Are we going to jail folks who "almost committ assault but don't? No does mean no and we agree on this. However, I don't understand how you elevate rape to the status of murder. You got to do better on this one! | ||
| Team |
I do believe rapists and Pedophiles should be put down or some other kind of SEVERE penalty,like Separation from Society forever. It is a very different kind of assault.It's not like getting punched in the face,stabbed or shot,It's not a sexual thing it is a Power thing, usually committed by somebody that has a lot of issues, as we all know usually end up committing the crime again, like the Drew Shundin(spelling) case where the Perp just got out of Prison and a sexual assault program and ending up kidnapping her and killing her. Rapists and pedophiles are broken and can't be fixed. A capitol offense? I don't know, but I do think a mandatory castration and removing them from society forever would make this world a better place. If you commit a crime with a gun it is illegal for you to ever obtain a gun legally. If you get rid of a rapists Tools of the trade it is going to be really hard to repeat the crime, that would also take place in a perfect world, where there is no chance a innocent man or woman was found guilty. Lots of issues, I don't think anybody has the perfect answers, But I do think rapists and pedophiles should definitely be removed from society, because I find their offenses Vile, and generated by a truly disgusting Evil overtone. | ||
| Vegasbueller |
>However, I don't understand how you elevate rape to the status of murder. You got to do better on this one! When it happens to your wife or child I bet you will change your tune. "Just because the rapist didn't "complete" the act makes it no less of a rape. " This is simply nonsense! Again, because I "almost got raped, I actually did." So in your eyes, if a woman is attacked and brutalized with the looming threat of a sexual act, as long as he doesnt enter her, she hasnt been raped?? Now that is nonsense. | ||
| Court |
>>>This is simply nonsense! Again, because I "almost got raped, I actually did." Your presumption of "total nonsense" in fact, is total nonsense. Victims of a crime suffer long and gravely after the commission of even a failed crime. Terry Cushinberry tried to murder me on a June night in 1970. For a month after I was released from the hospital I, a fairly decent athlete preparing to head to KSU on an all-around gymnastics scholarship, slept behind my parents closed door as cars drove by late at night and the phone calls with death threats continued nightly. During the trial, as members of the black panthers sat sneering in the front row, I was exposed to pictures of my sister, unrecognizable after being hit in the face with 3 rounds or #4 buckshot, and 5 of my friends were paraded. I listened to a defense attorney ask me "is there a chance you may have said something to mr. cushinberry that would have made him do this?" While we are presuming "nonsense", tell me what a 16 year old kid could yell to a guy in an Impala over a block away that would make him justified in going home, getting a Remington 1100, going back to 16th and Plass and spreading 7 kids just out of a church group meeting all over the ground? I said "WHAT?" to deserve this? For what it's worth, I struggle with this and random violence to this day. I was carried off a construction job the year after 9-11-01 during the ceremony in which we raised a flag on a crane during a moment of silence. From my days in the USMC, with the White House Advance Team and in the streets of Topeka, KS (many times more dangerous than the relative quiet of NYC), I've seen too much. The victim of an "attempt" is often far worse off..... I don't need for you to agree with me, but there is a "point of view" for you. By the way . . . cushinberry, who had previously been "adjudicated" on 17 occasions including the little incident where he put the .308 round through the "A" pillar of a Topeka PD car from the I-70 Carnahan overpass, did 13 months after being found guilty of 7 counts of aggravated assault with intent to commit murder. Care to take a shot as how much faith I have in the justice system? I suspect you can guess the fate of the next soul who assumes I will "willingly" allow myself to be a victim. Court | ||
| Brucelee |
"When it happens to your wife or child I bet you will change your tune." If my wife were in assaulted in any way, I would be very unhappy indeed. However, the death penalty would be off the table in my book. "So in your eyes, if a woman is attacked and brutalized with the looming threat of a sexual act, as long as he doesnt enter her, she hasnt been raped?? Now that is nonsense" Not at all. If a woman or man is assaulted they are assaulted and there is a criminal penalty for that. Rape is a specific act which did not occur, assault did, That is what you prosecute. Jail is jail, lets prosecute for the actual crime committed. If it is attempted rape, it is attempted rape. Kind of like attempted murder is not murder! . | ||
| Doughnut |
Blake, I see the miscommunication. My fault. | ||
| Brucelee |
Court, You are actually supporting my point with your story. The reality is that the victims of all violent crimes have to live with the physical and emotional aftermath, which as you show, can be quite severe indeed. To single out rape as some special form of crime is to minimize the impact that violent crime has on all its victims. Re: the guys in your story, they certainly should have received the severest of penalties that the law allows and perhaps then some. Just to be clear, I have NO problem with death penalty. I think applying it to any and all rapes is nonsense at best. | ||
| Doughnut |
940.225 Sexual assault.(1) FIRST DEGREE SEXUAL ASSAULT. Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a class B felony: (a) Has sexual contact or sexual intercourse with another person without consent of that person and causes pregnancy or great bodily harm to that person. (b) Has sexual contact or sexual intercourse with another person without consent of that person by use or threat of use of a dangerous weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to lead the victim reasonably to believe it to be a dangerous weapon. (c) Is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and has sexual contact or sexual intercourse with another person without consent of that person by use or threat of force or violence. Does not have to be actual "sex", simply sexual contact. (1996 WI Statutes) Sorry, couldn't find my more recent edition. (Message edited by Doughnut on February 19, 2005) | ||
| Vegasbueller |
"Does not have to be actual "sex", simply sexual contact. (1996 WI Statutes) Sorry, couldn't find my more recent edition." I think that is the case in most any state. Also...if you do any case research, you will find that rapists are some of the most intelligent and cunning individuals that you will ever deal with. LIke the one mentioned before, they can convince parole boards and shrinks that they are competent for release and "reformed" and most rape again or kill within the year of their release. And Bruce: I guess to put it in more practical terms... if you and I are assaulted physicly, we tend to be reseilient as the male species. It does mar us, but I feel that it would not mark us the same as if we were gang raped and then put on trial and asked what we did to make them rape. I simply feel that if a rapist is guilty and found guilt ybeyond a shadow of a doubt, then they dont deserve to continue to live. I feel the same for a pedophile. | ||
| Vegasbueller |
"I've seen too much." I hear you loud and clear Court. That is the reason that I got out of public service. I spent the first seven years of my post high school career as a firefighter/emt, then after getting involved with helicopters and the aviation field, I joined a law enforcement agency where when not flying, I worked with the narcs. Yet another reason for my stance. I have seen the carnage left behind by these animals. I live with the results of it every day. I too have been haunted by dreams of the faces of dead victims who didn't get to see the justice exacted on their killer. I also have a more personal interest in the judiciary system as it pertains to the punishment of sex offenders, but that is not wholly my story to tell. | ||
| Doughnut |
I hear things like what Vegasbuller say, and yet I still can think of nothing else that I want to do with my life. Am I stupid or naive?  | ||
| Vegasbueller |
Doughnut... it is different for many people. My dad was a firefighter for 32 years. Since retirement he has been in and out of mental institutions so many times I lost count. Some make it unscathed. I know what you say when you say that now you cant imagine doing anytyhing else with your life. I was like a junkie having DT's when I got away from it. The sound of a siren was more like a soothing song than any alarm for a long time. I say congrats to you for being there... and keep up the good work. People don't appreciate enough the job that people in public service do. Nick | ||
| Doughnut |
Vegasbueller, not there yet, still trying. Got my fingers crossed for a local PD that will hire this May. | ||
| Brucelee |
"I simply feel that if a rapist is guilty and found guilt ybeyond a shadow of a doubt, then they dont deserve to continue to live. I feel the same for a pedophile." I simply don't agree. Would you execute someone who is guilty of "date rape." | ||
| Brucelee |
Hypothetical Man and Woman go on a first date. Much partying and drinking, and both are somewhat drunk. They go back to her appt at her invitation. They have sex. Sometime during the act, she says, no. Then she has sex and the next day, says, it was rape. If found guilty, do we execute this man? After all, no means no. Rape is rape, well not really! | ||
| Vegasbueller |
I would... rape is rape. Taking dignity away from another human being whether or not they are sedated is still rape. It is still a crime. In your eyes, does the rapist have to take the life of the victim to qualify for death? Or.. are you against capital punishment period? (I dind't see you state your view on that) | ||
| Brucelee |
"I would... rape is rape. Taking dignity away from another human being whether or not they are sedated is still rape. It is still a crime." No one said the above scenario was not a crime. By definition, it the man was convicted, he had commited a crime. However, in your mind, is the borderline crime (no witnesses, he said, she said, diminished capacity etc) worthy of death? If so, I am glad you have no official role in the meting out of "justice" in the US. Perhaps Nazi Germany would be more to your liking? "In your eyes, does the rapist have to take the life of the victim to qualify for death?" Simply put, yes. "Or.. are you against capital punishment period? (I dind't see you state your view on that)" I have no problem with the death penalty, I mentioned that in an earlier post. I DO have an issue with what it might be applied to. And certainly, assault like the one mentioned above does not meet my criteria for taking a man's life or even for castration. The subjective standard of date rape can be ridiculous. So, to apply it in the above situation, well, absolutely not! | ||
| Doughnut |
Sometime during the act, she says, no. Then she has sex So, she said no to sex and he had sex with her anyway. Sounds like rape. 940.225 (4) Consent "consent", as used in this section, means words or overt actions by a person who is competent to give informed consent indicating a freely given agreement to have sexual intercourse or sexual contact. (Ever deal with someone drunk, they are not competent. The end all in my mind is that she said NO. Means game over. Period.) | ||
| Doughnut |
My personal opinion, I don't care if you are with a woman and you are three strokes away from climax, if she says no or stop, it is time to abort. If you are with a woman who makes a game out of this type of thing, you need to get with a better woman. | ||
| Vegasbueller |
"If so, I am glad you have no official role in the meting out of "justice" in the US. Perhaps Nazi Germany would be more to your liking?" bl: You are obviously pushing for a rise out of me. Nice try. Your view sums up as this: a man forces himself on a woman, brtualises her, scars her mentally beyond repair, he deserves to spend time in jail, where he has no worries, no bills, no needs, just killing time till he can get out and do it again. My view: A part of that woman has been killed, he should die. Cut and dry, simple concept. Your view: If he drugs her and then has sex with her, she wont know, everything is ok My View: He dies, simple, cut and dry. He raped a woman, an unwilling, helpless woman. And there is no such thing as "borderline rape" | ||
| Brucelee |
"So, she said no to sex and he had sex with her anyway. Sounds like rape." 940.225 (4) Consent "consent", as used in this section, means words or overt actions by a person who is competent to give informed consent indicating a freely given agreement to have sexual intercourse or sexual contact. (Ever deal with someone drunk, they are not competent. The end all in my mind is that she said NO. Means game over. Period.)" You changed the facts of the case, to your advantage I might ad. Regardless, the issue was not whether the man had committed rape or not. Remember, I said he was convicted of rape by the jury. My question was, under these tenuous and controversial circumstances (remember they were BOTH drunk and therefore not competent according to you), do you still execute this man? If she was not competent, was her memory of the event to be trusted. Remember, he denies hearing no!) Try this version and stick to the facts please! Do we still execute this man? How can you be so certain? | ||
| Brucelee |
"My personal opinion, I don't care if you are with a woman and you are three strokes away from climax, if she says no or stop, it is time to abort." Yes you should stop. However, have you committed rape since you were active before she said no? Interesting, do we go backwards on this? Some woman's groups feel you should. "If you are with a woman who makes a game out of this type of thing, you need to get with a better woman." No argument with that logic! | ||
| Vegasbueller |
Ohh and by the way... I also fully supported the caning of Michael Fay,the little bastard that decided to go to Singapore and paint grafitti on peoples cars. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Your view sums up as this: a man forces himself on a woman, brtualises her, scars her mentally beyond repair, he deserves to spend time in jail, where he has no worries, no bills, no needs, just killing time till he can get out and do it again. My view: A part of that woman has been killed, he should die. Cut and dry, simple concept." Well you did say it, your view IS a SIMPLE concept. You make tons of assumptions here not previously described by me and ascribe them to me. So, why should I refute what I did not say? What I did say was that rape is a form of battery and depending on the severity of it, the punishment should fit the crime. I know of no other form of battery where the death penalty is applied. You seem to feel it should apply in all rapes and that all convicted rapists are lifelong rapists. This does not square with reality. Think about it. Your view: If he drugs her and then has sex with her, she wont know, everything is ok My View: He dies, simple, cut and dry. He raped a woman, an unwilling, helpless woman. And there is no such thing as "borderline rape" |
