| Author | Message | ||
     Evaddave  |
Bomber, I think the numeral 5 isn't so much of a problem by itself. I think it's a problem when you have it preceded by the word "as." Since a 5 can look like an S, the purity filter thinks you're being creatively naughty. Does anyone else see the irony in debating the meaning of the word "engineer" by a society that has difficulty determining when to place an apostrophe in the word "its"? -Dave | ||
| M2nc |
Blake, To pass myself as a PE would be wrong, though I never did. I have been an Engineer. In my last position, I was the approving signature for forklift modification. I too had to consider forces in the modifications I made to meet customer specifications. After I finish my next degree I can apply to AME to be certified as a Manufacturing Engineer. I would never take anything away from a PE, my Uncle is one. Also, I would not want to go into a building that a PE did not approve. But I know many highly educated engineers that are not PE's. My roommate in College has his Phd in Aerospace Engineering. He works for the US Gov. No PE,does't need it for his work, though he taught allot of eventual PE's at Notre Dame. Also my company would never hire him for what I did because they could not afford him. I think many have stated it for me, an Engineer and a Professional Engineer are not necessarily the same thing. I don't know the hang up with scaling the profession, a Psychologist is not a medical doctor like a Psychiatrist, but they still call themselves doctors. I would never pretend to say I can design a bridge, but for what I do, I do not need to. By the way, my roommate does consider himself a doctor. | ||
| Blake |
The only time "its" gets an apostrophe is when it is used as the conjunction of "it is"; then its is "it's". That's it.  Simple stuff, but I'm still not an engineer. | ||
| M2nc |
Oh, I just learned this from my brother who is an Attorney. He stated that he is not a Lawyer because he has allowed his license to laps. He works as an editor for a company that has the largest library of International Law. Your statement that you must pass a bar to be an attorney is not correct. You must be licensed to be a practicing Lawyer, but you are an attorney when you get the degree. This is according to my brother who also has the equivalence to a Phd in Law. FYI I am not just poking fun at you, the situation really came up this passed weekend. My Cousin introduce my brother as a lawyer and he corrected him. | ||
| Blake |
I apparently mistakenly thought that the terms lawyer and attorney were synonymous. If what you say is true, then I am grateful for the knowledge. I remain skeptical however. I've never ever heard of anyone honestly claiming to be either an attorney or a lawyer who hasn't passed the Bar exam.
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| M2nc |
I know you know that the Law does not follow anything that makes as much sense as a dictionary, if it did my brother would be out of work.  By the way 145mph on your M2? | ||
| M2nc |
Sorry, I have the same dictionary. Look at the synonyms paragraph under Lawyer. It clarifies that and Lawyer is an Attorney, but an Attorney is not necessarily a Lawyer. A Lawyer can represent someone in court, an attorney can not. An attorney can represent someone in business, as my brother does with his work, but he could not go to court for me. Darn, I guess I better not get a speeding ticket. | ||
| Dsergison  |
well. I just "designered" a cradle to carry and hold a 24,000 lb axle whilst it undergoes destructive testing. and I sure aint no professional engineer. :P and I sure hope that thing holds togeter.... based on previous experience I'd trust you to build my garage. thankfully there's a time and a place for "build it heavy" guys who hold up their thumb, squint and say that should do it. I can manage simple beam calculations but that's about it. I sort of agree about the bar/P.E. analogy. BUT for the folks like my brother in law who has a doctorate in metalurgy. he's still Dr. Bob to me. If you want to keep every tom, dick, and non P.E. engineer from using the title engineer..... then why even have the "P.E." what would that mean then? It would become superfolous, so oh well. good luck with your cause. I rode on new years eve and january second :P | ||
| Buellisti |
Blake is correct in his stand on "Professional Engineer". Engineer is the short form of Professional Engineer and the title of engineer may not be used in public unless one has received their license. Companies may call their employees engineers so long as the title is internal to the company and the company is not engaged in business with state or municipal governments. That is to say, a guy at Raytheon designing the targeting system for a missile system may be referred to as an engineer, but if the same guy is designing the supervisory control and data acquisition system for a municipal water utility he can't be called an engineer unless he is a PE. If you work for Union Pacific and operate a locomotive, you may publicly claim to be an Engineer. At least as it stands in Texas. The whole thing is simply a legal fiction that enables a professional organization to have control who practices the profession within a jurisdiction. Unfortunately, the whole PE process seems rife with politics and less concern on knowledge. That's me as an outside observer. I lost my original job title, Geologist I, a short time ago as Texas became one of the latest states to adopt the Professional Geoscientist. There was a mad scramble of applicants to grandfather in. I saw a fair number of people get licenses that probably shouldn't. I hadn't been practicing long enough to grandfather in either. So, now I have to kiss major _ss, buy the expensive study guide, and put in my five hours of study. Any bets on how many tries I will have to make before passing the exam? | ||
| Ethanr  |
Blake->The corporations who are concerned with the integrity of their organisation no longer permit their employees who are not registered professional engineers to entitle themselves as "engineer." Wound up pretty tight over this aren't you? en-gi-neer, n. a person versed in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of the various branches of engineering en-gi-neer-ing, n. the art or science of making practical application of the knowledge of pure sciences, as physics, chemistry, etc., as in the construction of engines, bridges, buildings, mines, chemical plants, and the like Whether you like it or not, there are plenty of engineers out there who have never passed a government-instituted test. Your statement implies that *every* major semiconductor manufacturer is not concerned with integrity, as they employ thousands of process and equipment engineers and, contrary to your belief ["Not all corporations have adopted this new, more honest convention. They will."], this isn't going to change any time soon. It's not an issue of integrity. The problem arises only when folks hijack the English language. An engineer is one who meets the definition of the term. Rather than complaining that an engineer who hasn't passed a test isn't an engineer, we should properly refer to one who *has* done so as a "Certified XXX Engineer" or some such title. | ||
| Mr_grumpy  |
Some centuries ago in England wealthy, powerful people started fencing off prime grazing land which had previously been common land & used by everyone, this was done legally because they wrote the law to their own advantage & it was called enclosure, this just seems to me to be a modern day example of the same sort of thing. Engineering covers a very broad spectrum of disciplines & is something engineers do, the one go's with the other. If engineering is what you do, you are an engineer. Just because some body in one country decides, after centuries of common usage of the term, that it can only apply to a person with a certain piece of paper, available only in their country is immaterial. I have no problem with the term Professional Engineer to distinguish between those who have a bit of paper & those who haven't, even though I feel it's a redundant term , but I don't see how you can expropriate a word that has been in common usage to describe a function for centuries. I'm a Professional Truck Driver & have been for many years, am I now to say that anybody who holds a driving licence but isn't qualified to drive big rigs can't call themselves a driver? Or are we going to use the term Professional Driver? In which case where do paramedics fall? will they have to have a special professional driver? or salesmen, or LEOs, or any of the other jobs that entail the use of a vehicle to make a living. Where does it end? Will I end up with the same standing as Michael Schumacher? Or would he not qualify to be a professional driver? As a less litigious society here in Europe we get less of it than in the US but you've still got a problem if your name happens to be the same as a major corporation, such as mcsomethingorother. Personally I'd be worried, living in a country that takes such pride in it's freedoms as you do, that an organization can exclude so many people from their own job description or name. | ||
| Court |
>>>>but I'm still not an engineer. That's an inaccurate statement. Like it or not, let me be a bit obtuse, you are wrong on this one. You are an Engineer, Aaron is an Engineer and Erik Buell is an Engineer. For the record, let me say all 3 of you are dandy ones as well. None of you are Profession Engineers in the context of Licensing. You are Engineers. The Attorney v. Lawyer thing of interest to me on the cusp of night law school. When asked, after tutoring law, why I have not attended in the past my answer has always been "because so many lawyers seem to get sucked into being attorneys" You have also picqued my curiousity with regard to what a "construction worker" is. Now admit you are wrong, take your paddling and return to your regularly scheduled program. Court | ||
| Blake |
I was wrong about the business card issue and title within a corporation. A PE friend of mine apparently gave me inaccurate information or possibly the law above has been modified in intervening years. My bad. The rest is pretty clear. Sorry if it offends some that engineering is a profession that demands particular standards be met before calling oneself an "engineer." Please realize that this is not some egotistical aim of engineers; it is purely for the protection of the public just as it is with lawyers, doctors, architects, massage therapists, etc. Characterizing the achievement any such professional licensure as consisting of merely "having a piece of paper" is indicative of a deep-seated resentment towards such professionals. Cheers, Blake | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
I wish the same was true here in the UK. Ultimately I think it will be, but perhaps not before I retire. It can only be good for Salaries and Hourly rates. Steve. | ||
| Road_thing  |
The profession of geology has recently (in Texas) been the subject of similar legislation to that quoted above by Blake. It was a divisive topic among practitioners of the profession in its various forms. The end result was that geologists whose professional work might affect the health and/or safety of the public are required to be licensed. These geologists will mostly be engaged in work related to the protection of groundwater, location/cleanup of hazardous wastes, engineering studies for foundation design of large structures, etc. Petroleum geologists (of whom there are quite a few in Texas) are not required to be licensed since the health and safety of others generally does not depend on their work. A fair number of petroleum geologists went ahead and got licensed anyway. There was a "grandfathering" provision for a limited period of time. rt | ||
| Djkaplan  |
I'm sick of being an engineer. When I look back on school and the jobs I've had since, I should have majored in industrial management and gotten an MBA. I probably could have retired by now. | ||
| Court |
>>>The profession of geology has recently (in Texas) been the subject of similar legislation Having rocks in one's head no longer rises the the "professional qualification" standard? Blake...."you don't have to apologize to me, I am your brother. But never take sides against the family again" | ||
| Dsergison |
what if you spell it all lowercase.... engineer, Vs. Engineer. like GOD God god. big GODS and little demi-gods /sillyness | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
So this is a local to Texas thing then is it? Can you please tell me when it was introduced? Do Texas state laws apply to those outside of Texas? I realise that to Texans this is immaterial, as anywhere outside of Texas isn't a proper place & therefore doesn't count, but I'd like to know any way.  | ||
| Blake |
So this is a local to Texas thing then is it? No, absolutely not. I am fairly sure that every state in the union maintains similar law. Without it the public is exposed to unacceptable risk. Can you please tell me when it was introduced? If you are that interested, please do the research yourself. It has been in existence in some form for a long time, as long as I remember anyway. Do Texas state laws apply to those outside of Texas? If they are working on a project that directly affects the state of Texas or the residents of Texas. Otherwise, no, of course not. I realise that to Texans this is immaterial, as anywhere outside of Texas isn't a proper place & therefore doesn't count, but I'd like to know any way. I'm pretty sure that similar laws exist in all states of the union and would be surprised if Canada and/or its provinces don't maintain similar law. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Thanks for the advice, I did just that. The act was made in 2001 and only came into effect in 2003. There are numerous exemptions, but the basic upshot is, as long as you don't offer to the public to perform services, & you are what most people generally accept to be an engineer, there's no reason you can't say you are one. Full text of the act here, interesting reading too! http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/OC/content/htm/oc.006.00.001001.00. htm | ||
| Country  |
WOW. I sure started a CF with my first post in this thread. Never meant for it to as far as it did. Blake just for the record I never really refer to myself as an engineer unless I am describing to people what I degree I graduated with and I also always tell them that I am not really considered an engineer until the PE. Like you said I am but a designer. Whether I like it or not that is the way things are. I just have to deal with it get my PE.  | ||
| M2nc |
This is a quote from SME website (Society of Manufacturing Engineers). Note you can apply online to Certify as a Manufacturing Engineer. Check it out www.sme.org "Since it was formed in 1932, SME has worked to make engineers, companies, educators and others successful in their quest to advance the manufacturing industries." How can Texas outlaw an organization the precedes the law, and is recognized as the standard for all manufacturing in North America? Also please visit http://www.iienet.org Institute for Industrial Engineers, recognized in 16 countries. You need to check out the Board of Trustees at IIE Most are Phd but only three are P.E. I especially like this guy "John E. Kobza, Ph.D., director of student development on the IIE Board of Trustees, is an associate professor in the department of industrial engineering at Texas Tech University" Texas does love their outlaws. | ||
| Blake |
Texas doesn't outlaw SME. Texas and all other states in the union require that to represent oneself as an engineer to the public one must meet certain minimal standards of education and experience. Anyone can serve on a board of trustees of an organization. If they want to call themselves engineers they will need PE certification. Simple. Next question.  | ||
| M2nc |
Why is this texan teaching in a branch of engineering that most engineers are not PE? His graduates are classified as Industrial Engineers by every major industry in the world. May I also state the Texas Tech is top rung in this field. Also, how can you have a Phd in Engineering and not represent yourself as an Engineer? Like my roommate, most of the Board of Trustees are in the engineering field or teaching future engineers, but are not PE. If you look at their accreditation, they are each quite impressive in they work and education. The absence of a license does not change their profession. Your definition does not conform to industry standards as wells as English norms. By the way, you did not answer my earlier question, 145mph on your M2? | ||
| Blake |
A teacher need not be an engineer, only a teacher, regardless of their degree. Certainly a director of student development need not be an engineer. It's not my definition, it is the law. Sorry that it upsets you. If you have a PhD, you would be a doctor of philosophy in whatever field applies; if your field is some branch of engineering, you would not be an engineer as far as the public is concerned unless and until you fulfill standards required by law. Those standards require education and practical experience and often a passing score on the Principles and Practic of Engineering exam in your particular field of engineering. No one without actual practical experience in the USA will be granted licensure as an engineer. Simple. The "definition" as you put it is not mine; it is the law as pertains to representing oneself as an "engineer" to the public. The absence of a license doesn't change one's profession, it simply means that one may not represent oneself as an engineer to the public. Sorry if the law upsets you, but that is the way it is. It is the way it is to protect the public. Do you get just as upset that people with degrees in architecture cannot represent themselves as "architects", or that those with medical degrees cannot represent themselves as "medical doctors", or that those with law degrees cannot claim to be "lawyers", until they have fullfilled the professional requirements dictated by law that allow them to do so? How can one be an "engineer" if one is not permitted to practice as an engineer in the public arena? Yes, I've had the old Cyclone up to 145 mph. Let me guess, you want to argue about that too?  | ||
| Buellisti |
M2nc Engineer is a legal title, just like Medical Doctor. It is not based solely on education and everything to do with being a member of the club. The Texas board issues Educator Licenses. Under state law, if you do not have a license and teach in the school of engineering, you are an engineering educator, not an engineer. Of course, an Educator License is a waste. It doesn't permit you to practice engineering in public, it merely allows you to legally use the term engineer.  | ||
| Blake |
"The Texas board issues Educator Licenses." That's news to me. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Interestingly, in some states, you can take the exam for an EIT certificate and PE license without having a college degree of any sort. I know PEs in Georgia that have never even been to college. The PE license has also been accepted in lieu of a college degree as a qualification in higher level state jobs. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Blake, I want to stay on topic, but did you get 145mph with the stock gearing on the Cyclone? Was the 145 drag or rpm limited? |
