| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Just curious about OPINIONS. I've noted a ton of unlicensed Buell stuff begin sold on e-Bay over the last year. This bothers me because I know many folks who will be buying their kids Xmas stuff with fund provided by designing, producing and selling REAL Buell stuff. I sometimes write and ask if their stuff if licensed and I got an interesting reply today. Yes, the paper manual is licensed by Buell. My CD contains a scanned PDF copy of the original factory paper manual. Thanks, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: clcanfieldataol.com [mailto:clcanfieldataol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:23 PM To: ademski@rogers.com Subject: Question for item #7938760448 - Buell XB9R Firebolt Service Manual CD Dear ademski, Is this prodcut licensed bu Buell or Harley-Davidson? Courtney Canfield New York City Just curious....if you wrote a book....and someone took it and put it on CD and sold it for a profit and they within the "license" of what they purchased. I say no, but am curious to see what others think. Court | ||
| Peter  |
Does the copyright say that it can't be distributed in any other way without prior permission? | ||
| Unibear12r |
Out of the 2004 Buell Service Manual copyright 2003 Buell Motorcycle Co. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED I'm not a lawyer but I think you have to have permission to even copy it in any way, let alone sell them. | ||
| Davegess |
NO | ||
| Peter |
Then I'd also say "no". | ||
| M1combat  |
Which is exactly why I haven't bought one from him. I'd pay 5X or more that price if they were made by Buell. | ||
| Xb9er  |
I think it is copyright infringement. I wonder if the H-D/Buell legal department is going after these guys. It's unclear if this person(s) actually scanned the paper document or obtained a PDF version initially and made copies. Are the manuals distributed to corporate staff or dealers, etc. in electronic format? Is the PDF available for purchase from Buell? I see the name David Kagan behind some of these. It is not just Buell's but all other makes that he sells electronic manuals for. Mike. | ||
| Bigdaddy  |
If this person did in fact obtain a PDF version and made himself, and only himself, a backup copy he'd not be in violation -- unless he happened to be using both copies at the same time. If the same person copied it and went on to sale it he'd be in violation or infringing on the copyright. I've seen the same things Court and I'm quite surprised that someone in the HDI legal department hasn't squashed their efforts. Counterfeiting, black marketing, shadow marketing, many names for it, is theft plain and simple. Thieves, liars, truth-stretchers, all suck. I've actually been the 'victim' of 'stolen' intellectual property (Pac Rim Fricking Thiefs) and it really, really, really sucks. Sorry to ramble. Greg | ||
| Phonemanjustin  |
I am not trying to be a smarta$$ or anything, but isnt it the same thing as someone posting a picture out of a service manual here on the board? | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise)  |
Nobody is charging for it here. Its no different than if I own the book & loan it to you. So long as nobody is getting rich at the expense of the mother ship or a sponsor, then I dont think anyone really cares. | ||
| Court |
>>>I am not trying to be a smarta$$ or anything, You are not being a smarta$$, this is a discussion. If you are referring to the pictures I post, you point is a valid one. I've invested thousands in purchasing Buell manuals. I also have many manuals that have been given to me. The salient difference, and I'm willing to admit this is a matter or interpretation, is that I am allowing you to look at a picture in my book, not selling the book for profit. I also use this stuff largely for illustration and to keep me from spending 2,000 words describing the differences in two parts. I think the HDI legal department needs to come down hard on the folks selling all the knock off Buell stuff. IP law is really funny....you use it or loose it. Interesting. | ||
| Reepicheep  |
The auctions I saw have fine print indicating "this product is only for use by people that already own a copy of this manual and want a copy in an electronic form". I won't buy one of em, even though I would like an electronic copy, because it stinks. But I sure do wish Buell had a CD in a pocket of the back cover of the manual I *did* buy. Or a copy on the website, perhaps keyed to my VIN if they don't want me reselling it. | ||
| Phonemanjustin |
I guess the point I was trying to make is that its a reproduction of copyrighted materials without the consent of HDI/BMC. I agree with you thats its a mater of interpretation. | ||
| Wyckedflesh  |
Out of curiosity after catching this posting, I stopped by my local Kinko's to "make a copy of a procedure for a friend" and was told that unless I had permission from Buell I could not make the copy on their equipment. | ||
| Tripper  |
Kinko's has always been very strict in this regard. | ||
| Newfie_buell  |
I have both the Paper Manual that I bought when I picked up the S1 and a copy of the online manual from this website that I copied to a CD to use in my Garage Computer. Copying is generally a bad thing. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
> Newfie, My understanding of copywright rules lead me to believethat you're legal in such an environment. You paid for it, you use one at a time, you're violating nothing. There's many fine lines in the process and you normally need a high priced mouth piece that wins from both sides of the table to really decide, but I'm pretty sure you're a-OK. I have many, many, to many to think about right now, years of dealing with corporate interllectual properties and dealing with HP IP watchdogs, Sun doggies, some M$ attack pupppies, but my knowledge says you're good to go. Now, do keep in mind that I'm a professional engineer and we're forbidden from signing our own purchasing orders, we're not allowedto talk to lawyers unless we're in court, buty your standing on pretty solid ground. If you need any further info ping me up and I'll try to laymenize it just a bit (I think I just used a Courtism?] G2 | ||
| Bigdaddy |
> Newf, Copying is generally a bad thing, but in your caseyou only saved yourself a 'backup' cop of your investment and that's lega. Your cool. ] | ||
| Court |
>>you're good to go. You are perfectly within your rights. The S-1, by the way, was the only Buell to ever have an "official" factory manual on CD. They were quite rare and quickly gone. A couple years ago I (and yes it was likely illegal as can be produced and distributed them at no charge. A fellow badwebber ate the supplying and producing of the CD's and I paid all the postage and distribution. I would not have done this was it still available. Court By the way, it is NOT a "Courtism"m it is what I refer to as a "Wordnastic". Watch they step, I am about ready to start writing again. | ||
| Bomber  |
the courts (NOT Canfield) have been very slow to react to the electronic reproduction of printed material -- likely cuz there is no indusrty bringing a buncha suits, fishing for a favorable ruling (like, for instance, what the music and, lately, movie industries have done). my lending you my manual, or, as Court (Canfield) does, a picture from my manual, is fine, as I won that manual, allow you to use it, and get it back you're copying that manual during the time it's in your possession, if not fine per your original question, Court, I say NO, resoundlingly | ||
| Outrider  |
From my experience in business, Court is absolutely correct in his "Use It, or Lose It" statement. The word "Enforce" can be substituted for "Use" as this also pertains to all Copyrights, Trademarks and Patents. The problem is the cost incurred in enforcing any of the above. All are extremely important to the company as they are listed as the company's assets. In as much as letting something like duplicating a service manual onto a CD and selling it may seem like a trivial issue, it isn't as the manual also includes the registered trademark and other proprietary information. Once a corporation has failed to enforce it's copyrights, trademarks and patents, it has set a precedent which allows others to knock them off and profit from the corporations mistake. The usual exception to the rule that the corporation will usually not pursue is the use of copyrighted materials by special interest groups like the BWB. The primary reason is that the material is used by and to assist the corporations customers and the reproductions are not sold or used to sell a product manufactured by others. Having been heavily involved in trademark, copyright and patent infringement lawsuits, I am painfully aware of the cost to defend these issues. Trust me when I say the burden of proof and the vast majority of the cost is on the corporation that is defending them. However, failure to do so can be catastrophic to the corporation that does not enforce them. | ||
| Bud  |
The usual exception to the rule that the corporation will usually not pursue is the use of copyrighted materials by special interest groups like the BWB. The primary reason is that the material is used by and to assist the corporations customers and the reproductions are not sold or used to sell a product manufactured by others  but those cheap ebay sellers, need to be given a warning | ||
| Outrider |
but those cheap ebay sellers need to be given a warning True, that is how the process works. Is called a "Cease and Desist" letter. Usually done in three levels. First is "Stop." Second is "I Warned You." Third is "You leave me no choice but to Sue." In the event the first three don't work, the fourth letter is "Seasons Greetings" (read: Summons enclosed). | ||
| Slaughter  |
Yeah - I saw those rip-offs on e-bay also. Kinda like me saying that I have a copyrighted copy of a George Carlin album on cassette but want to copy it to a CD and sell it. It'd be one thing if I burned a CD so I could use it in my car - my home stereo has my only surviving cassette player. | ||
| Rocketman  |
I'm all for copying. Since home computing took off big time the price of music CD's has fallen dramatically. The artist hasn't suffered a loss so much, but the record companies have. And so they should. We've been ripped off for decades over the price of music, whilst the fat cats producing it smoke around in Rollers and Ferrari's. The price of video games is ridiculous too. Copying any format of electronic entertainment keeps the market on its toes and it gives the poor a chance to afford it. In the case of automotive manuals, Buell and any other manufacturer should give them away, or at least sell them for cost. Automotive manufacturers are in the transport business, not computer software or book publishing, and if they don't produce it on paper or electronically tough luck if someone else does it for 'em. Frankly I hate (yes Blake - a legitimate use of the word) this global corporation bollocks. It all stems from the same place - greed! You can't walk down the street and find a hardware store in the U.K like when I was a kid. Now you have to go to B&Q, Tradex or Homebase etc for a bag of bloody nails. It's the same with supermarkets. They've just about killed off every corner shop retailer in England except for the Asian's (who work their arses off all hours selling fresh from the market produce). Hell dudes, Asda, Tesco, Sainsbury's et-al, they all have music & video departments fer chrisakes. Go see if they stock Elton John's 'Burn Down the Mission' album or Crowded House's 'Woodface'. No they don't and won't. They'll stock the top 20 video and cd's of the day but they'll continue to put out of business the small independent record shop who stocks every damn thing you ever wanted. Any one for a loaf of Warburton's? Rocket Rocket | ||
| Ethanr  |
Call me simplistic and old-fashioned. Theft is theft. If you don't own it, you don't have a right to it. Rather interesting to me that the loudest defenders of the "rightness" of stealing intellectual property are the thieves themselves. Precious few artists, songwriters, software authors, etc. standing up and saying, "Nah, we don't want you to buy our stuff. Just steal it." Greed is, in fact, behind the prices of music, software, and literally everything else we buy. That wouldn't justify driving off from the gas pump without paying. Neither does it justify the more feasible digital theft. Trite but true...two wrongs don't make a right. | ||
| Court |
>>>Copying any format of electronic entertainment keeps the market on its toes Interesting. Put me down as against committing a crime to influence economics. Interesting, the thought that "if they don't produce it on paper or electronically tough luck if someone else does it for 'em. ". I'll go ya one better, extrapolating on your logic then, the grandest thing would simply be to steal the original from the store. This is ludicrous, suggesting committing a crime rather than pay. I'll not debate, but anyway log me as on the side that suspects that IP laws were put in place to protect the rights of the creator. Regardless of where you weigh in on the "appropriateness" (I am laughing as I think this comes from a bloke on an $18K motorcycle) it does not justify stealing. I think the thing to do is to have a Buell knock off thread for us to alarm each other to chicanery and we in turn can alert e-Bay. Good for us, good for e-Bay, good for the market. Court | ||
| Blake  |
Wasn't it that kind of class warfare/entitlement thinking that got us communism? Yep, pretty sure it was. Might want to rethink that philosophy there Sean. I could never ever agree with it. Sharing a bit or a piece with a friend is one thing, copying and selling for profit the work of others is quite something else. | ||
| Crusty |
#1) Stealing is wrong. End of story. #2)Communism? Cool! Where's Good Ol' Joe McCarthy when we need him? | ||
| Koz5150  |
Be Like Erik... Don't copy, make your own! |
