| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
I was just out doing a errand and I saw four motorcycles. Two were airhead BMWs, riding together. Then I saw a Kawasaki Concours and then an oilhead BMW. All four had hard bags. The temperature is 47 degrees F, and those were the only bikes on the road. I sure wish Buell would build a successor to the S3-T. Hell, even if they didn't sell (though I think they will), it would be worth it just to shut me up. Hell, if Buell built it, I bet even Dyna would buy one! | ||
| Ingemar  |
Hell, if Buell built it, I bet even Dyna would buy one! He'll come back to his senses  | ||
| Outrider  |
Aw Shucks Crusty, if Sport Touring bikes sold, you know either Harley or Buell would have one available. On the humorous side, I have the sick feeling both honestly think they do. Ugh!!! | ||
| Steve_mackay  |
Friday morning, when it was in the low 30s here near Milwaukee. The *ONLY* bikes I've seen on the road were my s3T, and one beemer. That's it. Once in a great while, I see a Harley full dresser on the way to or from work when it's cold. But usually, it's a beemer, with hard bags. Has that been your observation Outrider? | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise)  |
Wouldnt mind a sport touring bike at all. The Yamaha FJR is a nice one but for some reason just doesnt do anything for me. BMW has it going on tho, I love the K1200GT. Heated seat & grips, plenty of wind protection, great ergos, etc. If HD would something more sporting with the Revo motor it could be a great sport touring platform. | ||
| Unibear12r |
I'm seeing more & more sport baggers regardless of the weather. Those Adventure-touring bikes are taking off too. That's what pried my S3T out of it's previous owners hands. I'm told most S3T owners are pretty loyal and I can see why. Shortly after I got my XB I did a four day/1500 mile trip on it. Not much corner carving at that pace. The bike did great and I had a great time but watching the others on the ride made it plain that a sport-tourer would be better. So now I have a S3T for those kind of rides. On the other hand the recent Octoberfast was three days of one curvy road after another that the XB was perfect for. Both bikes are versatile "niche" bikes that together cover almost any type of asphalt riding you want to do. Buell would be a great company to invade the Sport/Adventure-Touring markets (and other niches) and show em how it's done. They would sell the bikes with time & marketing. Just take off the blinders, pump in some money and use their combined great talents. If Harley is not willing to use Buell to invade other corners of the market (and sometimes fail, as that comes with progress) then they are being foolish. (Message edited by unibear12r on November 27, 2004) (Message edited by unibear12r on November 27, 2004) (Message edited by unibear12r on November 27, 2004) | ||
| Gomo  |
Everyone that owns a Buell S2/3T can agree about the Sport-Touring market. As well as owners of BMW's, FJR's, Honda's ST's and you can include ones like Triumphs ST. Also, do not forget Kawasaki's Concours, its now 20 years old and even though it is released each year with no changes and just one color - they sell! If Buell/HD claim that sport touring models aren't lucrative - they may have done something wrong not to get their message out or dropped out of the field to soon. The others seem to be doing well with them (granted the sport tourers are not the major part of there companies, but it seems that they are selling just about all they make). As much as I like the XB's, they do not fit my 6'1", 40+yr body well enough to do 300-400 mile days on. Not to mention the CityX looks like a model with atv parts thrown on it for "City" survial. Most of the Buell owners I know head to the hills for the twisties - not the city. Maybe the marketing folks should have a pow wow with their customer base; young and old, new and loyal ones, to see what they folks want. The XB's are great bikes - granted that; as well as innovative, but they do not work for the majority. I think (but have been wrong many times before) they need to expand their line for greater appeal. Whether it be the Sport Touring approach (a yes vote for me) or another such as the Moto field or dual-sport or even just sportbikes that the numbers will buy, they need to open their playing field a little more, because their niche seems to growing smaller here in the US. We as Buell owners understand the difference between usable sport rides and street legal racebikes which have tons of hp that can not be used in real world riding - but they're selling well. Is there a reason a company can't make what they believe in as well as what might sell? I would think that sooner or later the ones that had the superpower rides would realize they reason for what Buell makes and believes in - but you need to get them into the fold first. Just a rambling thought of mine. I'll just keep my S3T (even with the flaws it has had) and enjoy it as I did when I first got it (a feeling most of the S2/3T owners I believe have) and hope that either Buell or HD brings us a replacement we have all been looking for. (Message edited by gomo on November 27, 2004) | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Whenever we have a Buell ride, more often than not the S3's outnumber any of the other bikes by a wide margin. Very rarely do we have an X1 or an M2 on a ride, but the XB's & S3's are definitely out there. | ||
| Anonymous |
Gomo, I guarantee all of the sport touring bikes that deserve the name (ie. under 500 lbs with real handling) have taken a bath in the market. The reason you see them when the weather turns bad is that hard core riders own them. Unfortunately there are darned few of them. Buell has not built a replacement for the S3T because it costs a great deal of money to tool up for one right, and the volume of sales is so small. The S3T's sold in the hundreds per year, not thousands, and they were outselling the Triumph, Ducati, and Aprilia models at that time. I believe the Aprilia model sold less than a hundred in it's first year. A quality set of saddlebags and brackets alone will cost close to a million bucks to tool. That's not counting development costs, durability testing, crash testing, etc. At a few hundred units per year, that either makes for some very expensive motorcycles, or a bank that is willing to let you pay off the tooling with a twenty year mortgage! The market seems to consist of: the bikes just slightly lighter than a full tourer, with bells and whistles like the ST1300 and the BMW; the dirt cheap bikes that never change year to year like the Concours; and the bikes that were made by manufacturers who did not know how much trouble they were getting into! It sure would be nice to know why great motorcycles like these, that get great press too, sell in such low numbers. Some day we will figure it out. | ||
| Tramp  |
about the same day we figure out why someone has to post as anonymous on such a banal thread.... | ||
| Gomo |
"The S3T's sold in the hundreds per year, not thousands" "A quality set of saddlebags and brackets alone will cost close to a million bucks to tool. That's not counting development costs, durability testing, crash testing, etc. At a few hundred units per year, that either makes for some very expensive motorcycles, or a bank that is willing to let you pay off the tooling with a twenty year mortgage!" I can somewhat understand the numbers and dollars equation (Big Business is not my field), what I didn't understand was why get rid of what they had already. Buell had the basis for the St market with the S3T, why not work with it to grow? But if the answer is that space and time to do both the tube frame type and the XB's wouldn't work (as well as dollars), then it is understandable to do the forward approach and concentrate with the XB line and try to make it happen. Perhaps they could stretch one out(and ease the ergo's) for us taller riders and then we could just load it up with some soft luggage for our trips. | ||
| Newfie_buell  |
Who is that masked man???? | ||
| Imonabuss |
Personally, I appreciate reading a posting from an anonymous source, especially when it makes sense. However, that's just me. I have seen sales numbers for these sporty sport touring bikes and they are indeed awful. Really. Gomo, I'd be willing to bet the XBs are wildly outselling the S3T, and am darned near willing to bet that the CityX alone will do it. The fact is that XB sales have definitely passed annual tube-frame bike sales, and the quality is wildly better. All this with these worthless bikes that Buell marketing needs to talk with their customers about. I suspect Buell will build some bigger bikes in the future, but be assured that the XB's are a success. Mine is absolutely a treat to ride. No it's not a sport-tourer, but it's worth it to me to have just a great motorcycle. I was torn between an S3T and an XB9 when I bought my Firebolt, and to me the difference was the quality and the performance. Besides I decided I'm still too young to be a "bagger" guy! Maybe that is the problem with these bikes selling? | ||
| Gomo |
about the same day we figure out why someone has to post as anonymous on such a banal thread.... As much as I enjoy the thought and process of Eat,Sleep,Ride,Repeat (with an occasional sh*t squeezed [perhaps pun intended] in there), I do like having something to change into every 3rd or 4th day. I know live off the road buy it out there, rather spend my $$$ on gas to go further faster. | ||
| Tripp  |
basically make an xb m2, and they sold well- if they're not going to make a sport tourer why not at least a sport standard, with available soft bags like gomo said! | ||
| Anonymous |
Gomo, The conflict in complexity was indeed the issue why the S3's had to go. Without any related product to support them, they would have had to carry a complete line and personnel on their own, which couldn't be done. The last thing that product line needed was more overhead. Incredibly frustrating when you compare a motorcycle like the S3T with some POS like a Big Dog, which sells in hugely larger numbers, at three times the price, and with no quality or reliability. A 2002 S3T is a great motorcycle that could be ridded for tens and tens of thousands of trouble free miles. There will be other products coming in the future for Buell, but we will have to do our very best to make sure that they are not only great, but make great business sense. | ||
| Gomo |
Not wanting to sound like I'm backpeddling, but I realize that the core of the XB's are better built than the tubers and are out selling them worldwide; perhaps passion for a bike has a way to dictate responses. Although I still did not care much for the CityX - perhaps passion once again clouds judgement or can it just be written off as personnal likes/dislikes? | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Besides I decided I'm still too young to be a "bagger" guy! The folks who own the S3's...at least in the Hals, Ukes & soon to be Belle city chapters are for the most part all young. You would think it would be the other way around but its the mid 20 year olds who are buying & keeping the S3's. | ||
| Anonymous |
Differences of opinion around motorcycles is always a passionate thing, I mean, these aren't blenders we're talking about. Balancing passion with business decisions is the core issue at Buell, and it seems to be working well. Am I sad that we still don't build S1's and S3T's? Certainly. Are there more motorcycles that we would like to build? Definitely! Is Buell finally getting into a strong position where we can keep doing more great bikes? Absolutely. And it wasn't always that way. Thanks to the XBs, we are on solid ground. So, I have a very special place in my heart for them above all. | ||
| Firemanjim  |
I sure hope they come up with something to pique my interest.At 52 I just cannot take the ergos of alot of bikes nowadays,but can do 1000 mile days on my S-2.Or my Triumph Sprint ST.Of course I can just keep picking up those low mileage S-2's that keep appearing,but there is nothing like a new bike,so bring something to the table for all of us that want a bit bigger platform than the XB. | ||
| Imonabuss |
That's very interesting, Buells Rule. I wouldn't have though that. The word is that Buell average ownership age is dropping, but that's probably just new bike sales...perhaps used bikes are even more that way. | ||
| Gomo |
"Are there more motorcycles that we would like to build? Definitely! Is Buell finally getting into a strong position where we can keep doing more great bikes? Absolutely." As a person that is passionate about Buells - that is great news to hear. Although there maybe likes and dislikes about certain items (or bike style), it's good to know that the future has Buell in it! I for one look foward to what Buell has to offer, as well as be willing to express my opinion (whether based on passion or thought).I believe comments can do nothing but help and/or re-enforce an idea (even the not so positive ones). | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Yes it is odd. The owners of M2's are holding on to them...you really dont see many for sale & trhe owners tend to be older. But the S3's come up for sale quite a bit & its the young kids snagging them. X1's....ahh wont even go there.  The XB's are definitely geared more towards the younger crowd but...isnt there always a but?...again around here the owners I know personally with XB's are trending towards the older age..upper 30's low 40's. Maybe the midwest is an enigma? Older folks on XB's & young kids on S3's...or maybe its the older folks have the $$ or credit to afford a new bike while the younger folks can swing $3500-4500 for a decent used S3 but no more? | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Gomo, I have been waiting for HD to utilize the Revo engine in something more sporting. So far its just in 1 bike with different paint schemes. | ||
| Unibear12r |
You nailed it with passion Gomo. Its different for us all. The CityX doesn't mean much one way or the other to me personaly but my kids love it. Smart marketing at low cost. Look at Triumph doing a knock off so Buell is impacting the market. The XB is THE bike to go corner carving on,(even if I'm supposed to be to big or old for it)and it would be very hard to get me to give it up. Erik & company have to balance business & passion. I'm just a motorcycle rider and only have to balance my pocket book with my passion. Guess I should be glad to find a decent S3T I could buy. (Message edited by unibear12r on November 27, 2004) | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Personally....& dont tell anyone I said this...I may be in the market for a nice S1 in a few months. The S3's have never moved me at all, but a clean S1 is a nice canvas to build a great bike with. | ||
| Madduck |
The thing that has always amazed me about Buell, is how little of Harley marketing strategy is employed. With five basic models you can convince customers to modify the hell out of them to make them "personal". The parts and accessories are incredible. I would do the same to Buell. XB line and "tuber like" line and p & A to make it any damn thing you want. Bags and brackets can be outsourced to GIVI for instance and badged however you want. The Blast could be a street racer, street tracker even a choopper from an accesory standpoint. Harley 101 sell em the ride and convince em its not good enuff the way it is. Right on both counts. I am a life member of HOG and currently have a softtail with about 8k of accesories so far. Buy bags for a BMW and you are done. Paul | ||
| Tripp |
there should definitely be something in the line with standard ergos (if not sport tourer ergos), at one point there were 2 ie; cyclone & thunderbolt... now there are none  | ||
| Unibear12r |
OMG I just felt the Earth MOVE! Oh, thats right, I forgot for a moment that I live in California! | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Supply & demand. Its easier to justify an extensive P&A department when you are selling 230,000+ bikes a year. Little tougher when the sales are maybe 5% of that. It could be done but the parts would so expensive nobody would buy them. |
