| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp  |
excellent points, skunkweed. hence my espousal of the 12 ga. for home-d. little aiming involved, and even if ya use #8 1/2 bird, guy's gonna scream and scram. one thing to remember, kiddies- mace (& capsaicin)is an excellent deterrent, no lethality, excellent effectivity, no license required. anone here's been maced knows what i'm talking about | ||
| Outrider  |
Rob...Glad to see you picked up on Newfie's comment. Take it one step further and question why someone would ride into an area of town that is is known for its high crime. My preference is to relax and enjoy the ride, not put myself or my property in jeopardy. Avoidance is a good thing, eh? Yet it is a shame that it doesn't apply in all circumstances. The problem is what does a rider touring parts of the country do to know what areas to avoid or, for those that do not have a permit, when to switch from a legal carry (unloaded and locked up) to an illegal carry (loaded and hidden from pubic view). The assumption being that those with permits know where they can and cannot carry a loaded firearm as these are well publicized via the NRA and other organizations. Kindly note that I took the self defense thing off private property and put it back in public. The reason being is the original subject was about carrying a loaded firearm while riding. | ||
| Tramp |
you all should carry mace or pepper spray. even where it's outlawed the average cop's just gonna take it away from you. any cop who takes a clean-record lady's mace from her deserves a visit to the unemployment orifice. | ||
| Brucelee |
Recently I read a interesting story on the violent crime statistics where guns where outlawed, London and Washington DC. The stats were compelling in that the crime rate increased sharply every year after guns were prohibited. Could be a coincidence or simply show that criminals can figure the odds. Hmmm, if I go in that house tonight, I could be killed quickly by the owner. I think not! Or, hey, he can call the police. Boy, I am worried about them! I think this is a pretty clean issue. Guns are a deterrent to criminals ON AVERAGE! | ||
| Outrider |
Pepper Spray is an excellent option. Some types are even effective against aggressive animals as well. Additionally, I have read where Pepper Spray is more effective than a small caliber weapon in stopping an attack. Apparently the .22 to .32 caliber handguns aren't all that good in a panic situation and require precise shot placement to stop an attacker. One of the best things about Pepper Spray is it stops the perp long enough for the victim to get away and seek help. Not to sure what good this is if you are stuck with a broken belt or some other mechanical or physical malady, but it is worthy of discussion. | ||
| Jerseyguy  |
Years ago a friend of mine sadly caught his wife with another guy. When threatened, the dude sprayed my buddy point blank in the face with pepper spray. This so enraged my friend that he beat the crap out of the dude and put him in the hospital. | ||
| CJXB  |
Women are usually the weaker sex and should have an equalizer if they so desire. Good point, unless your a woman you simply wouldn't understand there are times when we don't feel safe alone under the same circumstances that a man would feel perfectly safe !! So avoid all those situations, where is that fair to us ??!! CJ  | ||
| Tramp |
ahhhhh...'we want equality........to a point' gender-implied affirmative action | ||
| Outrider |
CJ...You are absolutely correct in your assessment. My suggestion concerning avoidance pertained to both genders and had to do with avoiding known bad parts of town in general. The interesting issue that you introduced is that there are places where men don't feel threatened yet women would for all the right reasons. Granted there are fun places in bad areas, however, there are equally fun places in safer areas. Would love to give you a suggestion but that is a situation where a woman will have to make a decision based on the circumstances at the time the temptation to expose yourself to this sort of environment. Surround yourself with friends, pack heat or pepper spray, sharpen the toes on you boots, gosh they are all decent suggestions with associated risks. About the only thing I do know is that women possess the power of persuasion over men. Well, at least men that care for their women. As a result, the women have the opportunity to voice their opinion about a certain place/area and strongly suggest an equally fun but less dangerous destination. In the event, it doesn't work the first time, let the guys go on their own and let the women go to their preferred destination. Trust me, men adore their women friends and life partners and will follow, even though they may have to test the waters and spend an evening alone (read: without female companionship) in a bad environment. Bottom line is some men are slow learning ego inspired folks that are never too old to learn new tricks, especially when it costs them the companionship of their female friends. Translation: Women have the power to control the circumstances. Use it and the guys will follow. Not to mention both genders will have a more fun experience. | ||
| Roc  |
Rek – How does one know they live in a safe area? The family of my sister’s friend lives in an area of multimillion dollar homes, an area with many police and also armed private security. One night the father took the dog out for a walk and was greeted by 3 large men in ski masks. Two of the men watch over the father and one daughter, I think it was a daughter, while the third went room to room with the mother and took all of the good stuff. Not sure a heater would have helped, kind of depends on the guys awareness level, but doubt it would have made anything worse. Family friends who live in a rural area, keys in cars, had a Suburban taken one afternoon when they were home. Polekat – Good point. Overcoming my reluctance to strike someone was very difficult as an adult. Good OC spray device, a friend had one stop a break in at his gun shop. http://www.stopthecrime.com/default.htm | ||
| Outrider |
Just to add a little humor to this thread, the following is from a 76 year old friend out west that packs everywhere he rides. In a humorous way, it exposes the real evil in our society. Kinda scary, huh? Doctors and Guns WHAT WE ALL SHOULD KNOW..... Doctors: (A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000. (B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000. (C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services. Now think about this: Guns: (A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that is 80 million. (B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500. (C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is ..000188. Statistics courtesy of F.B.I. Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do." FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR. Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!! Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention. This message has been processed by Firetrust Benign. | ||
| Outrider |
Roc...Good website. FYI, I purchase my pepper spray supplies on the internet from companies that supply the law enforcement agencies. Better quality, more effective and available in varying sizes to meet your carry needs. I always liked to set up the family with the large in the car, medium in the purse/brief case and the small on the key chain. Additionally, we had several large cans hidden throughout the home and garage. Testimonial: I have never had the opportunity to use mine, but my 2nd wife and both step-daughters have. As we lived in OC, CA at the time and traveled from Mexico to San Francisco, getting the permits made sense. All three gals swear by it as it helped them escape dangerous situations. Additionally, the wife was a former Narcotics/Vice Officer and was allowed to keep her concealed firearms permit compliments of the extenuating circumstances of her undercover investigations and the continuing threats years after she left the force. As a result, she always carried both the gun and the spray. Needless to say, she used the spray as her first line of defense and never had to resort to pulling her piece unless she was holding someone for the LEO's arrival. Oh, did I mention we moved a lot. Fortunately, we profited from each move. The inverse is there were many areas and places we couldn't go to as we all would be targets of opportunity for the one's that missed out on the trip to Club Fed. LOL | ||
| Mutt2jeff  |
Rex- as far as just moving if you live in a bad neighborhood, i think you are over-simplifying things a bit. As i am sure you know, moving is most defiantly not an easy thing to do, nor is it cheap, so simply moving is many times out of the question. As far a pepper spray always working, it doesn't. I have been spayed, and after i got done trying not to puke after taking in my first breath, i stood up and layed the guy out that did it to me. Yes it does suck, but it did not incapacitate me. BTW, it was a joke on his part, and since i gave him a really good shiner, we called it even. | ||
| Outrider |
Mutt2Jeff...Very valid point. It sounds like you either got hit by a short burst or an inferior brand. Even the military's CS Gas used by LEO's for crowd control and LEO version of MACE, both of which are stronger get diluted in the atmosphere rapidly. With the pepper spray, a normal dose is one of the full key chain sized containers emptied in your face. Anything less than that is a waste and all you are going to to is aggravate your opponent into a more violent position. The pepper spray you can buy in the stores and at the swap meets, is usually the watered down stuff and not worth the money other than for the false confidence it provides the person carrying it. On the humorous side, my girl friend cooked a London Broil that was loaded with all the various color pepper corns on out indoor grill a few weeks ago and drove us both out of the house. She calls it "Cooking by Color." Well, she effectively made a very strong pepper spray and it drifted all throughout the house. It was funny once we stopped blowing chow and now I am tempted to pen her favorite recipes into a cookbook entitled "Cooking with MACE." LOL | ||
| Polekat |
"Take it one step further and question why someone would ride into an area of town that is is known for its high crime." Some of the very best ribs and corn beef sanwiches in the Milwaukee, Wi area are to be had in the higher crime area of the city. Many many go to these two places, inspite of any risk! Yes I've been to both...day & nite. Of course I have to work that area at times (day & nite), so it is no big deal. (Message edited by polekat on November 20, 2004) | ||
| CJXB |
ahhhhh...'we want equality........to a point' gender-implied affirmative action You think it's wrong for a female to feel she should be able to feel safe the same as men ?? Do you really believe we are as safe as men in all situations ?? (Message edited by cj_xb on November 20, 2004) | ||
| Tramp |
outrider said: "Translation: Women have the power to control the circumstances. Use it and the guys will follow. Not to mention both genders will have a more fun experience." i'm ascaired- are you saying rape is an act willed by the woman and she enjoys it as well? i know that's NOT whatcha mean, but it's what that statement more than implies, unless you're just in denial of the existence of this most heinous of crimes. that statement, outrider, is stupid absolutely stupid. i know you're not, but it is. and cjxb, NO! i feel a woman should feel AT LEAST as safe as a fella. and no, you're defintely NOT as safe as guys in most situations. That's exactly my point. equality of the genders requires a de facto 'affirmative action' of over-compensation. and while we're on the subject, take some good self defense courses. your best bet, as the 'gentler sex" is aikido. using your opponent's strength against him. and i mean him. i taught for many, many years (not aikido, though), and i gotta tell ya- be keenly aware of what form and what school you go with. there are scheisseloads of schools out there form a certain asia-majoran country (let's just say it's NOT japan or china) that will put rank on your gi so fast your head will spin, and you'll go out into the world with false confidence. this is called danger. find a good aikido school and nmake sure you practice for real. bear in mind, as well, when you find men to seem 'daunting' to fight, that it only takes agood 40 lb.s of force, applied in a snapping strike, to fracture a skull real nice. that translates to a mere 80# bench press, which is no daunting feat. strength does NOT make the fighter, but technique alone is just silly. take some fighting courses. that goes for you guys, too. no authority is goinfg to remove your ability to fight if you're NOT under arrest (like your gun can be), and, unlike your gun, your skills will follow you to the joint, should some bizarre mishap of justice occur. having a gun on the outside isn't gonna save yer cornhole once you hit the big house, or even the county lockup. | ||
| Brucelee |
"of this most heinous of crimes." How do you figure? | ||
| Doughnut  |
I have sprayed, and been sprayed with LEO pepper spray. One shot is a couple seconds long. Spray affects different people in different ways. I have seen people completely stopped by it, and I have seen other people become even more pissed off. If you are truly worried about your safety, learn to defend yourself and don't put all your faith in a device, be it a gun or spray. If someone really wants to do you harm, they'll find a way. My 2 cents. Take care, be safe. | ||
| Tramp |
excellent point, donut | ||
| M2me  |
I forgot since you in no way acknowledged it there John. Or did you close your eyes as I suggested? I did not close my eyes. I decided that I risked making a fool of myself by trying to agrue the finer points of law. Why? Because I'm not a lawyer! That's not my area of expertise. | ||
| Stealthxb  |
why would anyone live in a place they felt compelled to arm themselves for protection? cost of living anone here's been maced knows what i'm talking about as soon as the initial shock wears off the rage kicks in...better be fast or feisty enough to subdue why someone would ride into an area of town that is is known for its high crime. hookers, drugs, gambling and dog fights!!! the best way to turn an intruder around...PUMP ACTION | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
UN Report shows the effective implementation of 'gun-control' in Great Britain According to the recently released Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, England's overall crime rate tops that of the United States in virtually every major category, including violent crimes. If this isn't good news for the gun-control movement, we don't know what is. Why? Two reasons: * First: While this data doesn't support the idea that gun-control makes the people any safer, it does demonstrate just how smashingly effective the Gun Control Network has been at removing the means by which Her Majesty's law-abiding subjects might employ unacceptable counter-violence. After all, "common- sense" tells us that if Great Britain's citizens were armed they'd bloody well be resisting all this crime, which would make the crime rates much lower. * Second: With the "failure" of these restrictions to stop crime, the socially-minded 'common-sense' groups can ask for (you guessed it) more restrictions on self-defense and public liberty! Simply top notch! As a result, England is far more civilized than the USA, where potential victims resort to such unseemly behavior as "self defense" as reflected in their barbarically lower violent crime rates. Hooray! Another victory for 'common-sense' restrictions! 1999 (Last year results were available for both countries.) England Report page 117 Rate per 100,000 inhabitants United States Report page 492 Rate per 100,000 inhabitants England's numbers are first, US second Grand total recorded crimes: 10,061.11 to 8,517.19 Total recorded assaults: 833.72 to 805.21 Total recorded robberies: 159.95 to 147.36 Total recorded thefts: 3,357.60 to 2,502.66 Total recorded automobile thefts: 711.12 to 412.70 Total recorded burglaries: 1,721.33 to 755.29 Total recorded frauds: 635.36 to 133.74 My link- http://www.undcp.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/7pc.pdf | ||
| Unibear12r |
Doughnut is right. One and one half seconds after giving a guy a full dose of LEO pepper spray he did a 440 run like nobody I've ever seen. If he had wanted to fight he would have been a big problem & the pepper would have gotten me too. When thinking of lethal force remember that a small percentage of people die from reactions from pepper spray. A few people burned to death when the alcohol propellant for some reason ignited. Also its much harder to use than a firearm and your assailant must be very close. I've seen people spray themselves instead of the bad guy. I always had to run away because no matter how the wind blew or where I put myself the pepper cloud chased me. Leaves a lot to be desired. As a civie I don't have to use it thank goodness. It is good stuff on dogs though. Some people are nearly immune to the old mace though. Before pepper spray I was once in a mace training class of 20. The instructor swabbed a good dose of concentrated mace in one of all our eyes. I was the first and felt a cold tingle and knew not to rub. Everybody else but one went to their knees holding their faces and yelling. Turns out about 10% of the population it has little effect on. Lucky me. This instructor had interesting ways. He sometimes had us practice the riot gun on trap doubles using yellow & green clays against a hill covered in grass and yellow flowers. With 00 buck. Talk about hard. | ||
| Blake  |
John (M2me), That is an excellent policy, though you've instituted it a bit late.  | ||
| Bud  |
man, i love to have a nice gun ( think big & powerful ) but it's illegal here, yes, i could join a sporting club en after a few year, might even get a license to have one at home, ( keep it un-loaded in a safe separate from the amo ) but the hassle takes the fun out off it shees, even most police man and woman over here don't know how to handle a gun, when ever they find one in a crime scene ( unload it en don't forget the chambered one  ) a few years back there was a story that a witness off a crime scene was not taken seriously because he only heard one shot, and the policeman counted several 9mm holes in the door  | ||
| Tramp |
mace/cs/pepper spray all are excellent alternatives to handguns. the data does not support a concept of a percentage of the population having some implied 'immunity' many modern versions propel it quite far, and saying that it's innacurate is absurd in leight of the fact that a spray of mace covers a much, much, much larger swath than a 9mm round. mace anyone in the eyes and they won't see well enough to land a blow. the idea is you either then run, ladies, or you utilize your newfound advantage to utilize a swing of whatever's handy to the knees. you guys splitting hairs about the effectivity of it are missing the point, which is, that you ladies (and 'guys' who feel you need an equalizer) will get excellent results with less aiming and fewer charges/lawsuits lodged against you with mace than with a handgun. hey- me, i carry neither. i also don't crow about my guns online. i was raised to handle myself with my hands and i was raised with rifles, scatterguns n' pistols since childhood. just putting an alternative out there for you ladies who live in these socialistic gun-controlled colonies. | ||
| Rocketman  |
Sheesh Rocket... You won't be happy until your leading, biased, presumptuous questions and comments bend the truth to your own, will ya buddy? A normal person will NEVER simply decide to upgrade to robbery/murder from tin cans as you say. Seriously! What are you getting at? I can understand that you may have been brought up anti-gun and that is your opinion, but it's getting a little far-fetched... Actually the sad truth is far simpler than tin cans to liquor stores. A nation like America that allows its citizens access to guns is a nation that can't rely upon its citizen to make an unbiased judgment when for example your government finds itself in a situation where it might need to active her military. Nationalism and guns don't mix well for outsiders I fear. Rocket | ||
| Tramp |
actually, rocket, the vast majority of gun-weilding perps never went out 'plinking' with thier weapons. most perps, by far, bought their gun(s) illegally (which 'gun control' would NOt stop) and use 'em just for crimes without taking the time to train or to have aninterest in the sporting aspect of shooting. very, very few sporting gun-owners (you know, those who actually hit the range, plink cans in the backlawn, or hunt) ever utilize their weapons in the perpetration of a crime. those of us who've been brought up with guns as a constant hobby view them far differently than a gun-crime perp would. the adage 'when guns are outlawed only outlaws will ahve guns' is inarguable not only by sheer definition, but also by execution of gun ownership. gun control does not disssuade gun criminals, and further, gun control would NOt ahve had any effect whatsoever on the outcome of Sept. 11. think 'bout dat. hey- i'm not going to preach to all y'all limeys about the anemic little 'breakfasts' you eat, how much y'all smoke, and how y'all NEED to get some SUN! That's your culture, this is ours. besides, my AK goes real nice with my tan  | ||
| Tramp |
rocketman said: "A nation like America that allows its citizens access to guns is a nation that can't rely upon its citizen to make an unbiased judgment when for example your government finds itself in a situation where it might need to active her military. Nationalism and guns don't mix well for outsiders I fear. " yeah- our armed 'nationalism didn't mix well for' you british 'outsiders' in the 18th century when we achieved our independence, so i guess that might be a point of embarrassment for youze pommies.  (Message edited by tramp on November 21, 2004) |
