| Author | Message | ||
     CJXB |
choose not to pack heat or sit in my home with a shotgun across my lap because I believe most people are good and are not out to cause me harm. I believe that too, BUT if they have come into my home while I'm there all those thoughts are gone and I will feel I have now had the bad luck to come into contact with one of the few bad ones !!! I don't expect it to happen, but I won't believe it can't EVER happen to me !! And if it does and I'm alone, you can bet I'll be hiding and quietly using my cell phone all the while in my head cursing my ex for not being there with his gun so he could shoot the Bastid !! CJ  | ||
| P0p0k0pf |
----------------------------- I think Blake's pic and video clip, and no I didn't watch it, prove otherwise John. No question, firing those weapons was fun, but shooting tin cans can get pretty tedious I imagine, rather like owning a motorcycle but you can't ride it outside of the car park. Shooting tin cans one day, tomorrow the local liquor store? Rocket ----------------------------- Sheesh Rocket... You won't be happy until your leading, biased, presumptuous questions and comments bend the truth to your own, will ya buddy? A normal person will NEVER simply decide to upgrade to robbery/murder from tin cans as you say. Seriously! What are you getting at? I can understand that you may have been brought up anti-gun and that is your opinion, but it's getting a little far-fetched... (Message edited by p0p0k0pf on November 19, 2004) | ||
| M1combat |
"Sheesh Rocket... You won't be happy until your leading, biased, presumptuous questions and comments bend the truth to your own, will ya buddy? " Not to flame anyone... But Popokopf... read the "tell me about lines" thread. | ||
| Josh_  |
>Does that make tin cans a "gateway drug"? Finally some true insight!! So Rocket, is that why bobbies don't have guns? | ||
| P0p0k0pf |
I've read it M1, provided some contribution, and listened to both sides... I think that thread is a complete misunderstanding and miscommunication- | ||
| Blublak |
Hey Blake.. Sorry I didn't respond to you sooner, but I lost my connection for a while.. Now, please don't be upset as I'm posting without reading all of the posts that have come since your last post to me.. I was thinking that TxCC - 9.42-3 a & b would preclude someone from using lethal force as a first resort, which is how I had taken your stance (perhaps I mis-read something). I was under the impression that you were stating your FIRST choice was lethal force. Not a last resort. However, skimming a few things, I think we agree on the fact that you don't take a life without so much as a "Hey, you stop (insert crime here)!" Tramp - Ok, your point on nomenclature is well taken, I did not take into account the military designations and therefore stand corrected on that part. As far as civilian law is concerned, I must take exception. So, if you have no problems with it my friend, we are both right and we are both wrong.  Now, I'll go back and read some more.. Thank you for this brief back tracking on the postings.. Later, | ||
| Newfie_buell |
They now have guns. if this thread is killed it better be by Blake in Texas and I hope its trying to take over another thread. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Is this the latest offence punishable by death? Thread-Jacking? Well I'll be the offspring of a female canine!  | ||
| Outrider |
Sheesh, no wonder you people have more lawyers per capita than anywhere else in the world. Mr Grumpy...Excellent observation. However, the vast majority of lawyers in the US are not in Criminal Law and do not work with either the accused criminals or their victims. Heck, for that matter they aren't in Corporate Law either. The majority of lawyers in the US are in what I refer to as Personal Law which runs the spectrum from adoption to divorce to traffic law to liability law suits against the government, businesses and other individuals. Pretty much Ambulance Chasers and Opportunists if you get my drift. Yet, they do provide a service that is needed. | ||
| Outrider |
Mutt2Jeff...Thanks for the crime index stats. I used to get the written reports every year when in the auto and security hardware manufacturing biz and loved to use the information for both new product development and presentations. Made tons of money and supported hundreds if not thousands of families not to mention protected millions with the info gleaned from those pages! Thanks for the memories! | ||
| Outrider |
In disputing Texas vs Minnesota Law, you are comparing legal text rather than the actual interpretation of the Law which is a responsibility of the Courts. In as much as there are similarities and differences between the two States concerning the Written Law, I am relatively confident to assume that the Courts are very similar in both. I feel this assumption is valid as the Courts are run by the same caliber of Citizen (read: Jury) across the nation yet each individual State Legislative, Judicial and Enforcement Agencies are different. The Legislator's and Enforcement Agencies write and enforce the laws. The Judicial Branch is what interprets them in each individual circumstance. Considering this and the fact that American's will own and carry/use firearms or other inplements/methods of lethal force, I feel it is all the more necessary to support the concealed carry permit philosophy throughout the country. At least this way we are insuring that those that carry are trained in the law as well as technique and skills not to mention the psychological evaluation of the permit holder. The training as testing for a concealed carry permit is, in effect, a stronger more enforceable form of gun control as it forces registration of the gun(s) to be carried, it insures that only qualified individuals are allowed to carry, it insures that those that are not qualified to carry don't by merit of it being a criminal offense to carry without a permit. Not much room to argue these points as they are already laws that are in force through out the US regardless whether or not the State issues concealed weapons permits to citizens. They just aren't as effective as they could be by merit of no positive incentive to register, be trained and be licensed. As usual, all the law does is penalize (severely in this case) for carrying and/or using a firearm illegally. | ||
| Outrider |
People steal things everyday. You might want to consider some deadbolt locks and buying some insurance. M2Me...Yep, folks steal and commit a zillion other crimes every day. Is pretty much a human thing as it goes way beyond the survival of the fittest thing in nature. Additionally, I concur with your philosophy of securing and insuring your property to the best of your ability. Not to mention that the insurance carriers have a tendency to deny/reduce claims for property which was not secured in their opinion. However, please be advised that locks only keep honest people honest! Not going to bore you or anyone else with facts and testimony from very credible sources. Just think about it and you will know what I mean. | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
From HCI, a wonderfull satire website. HCI Guide for Dealing with Home-Invasions SNiVeL With home-invasion robberies on the rise, we here at HCI offer you the following guide to surviving such an encounter without resorting to violence. SNiVeL was created by our own Josh Suckerman. Owning a dog is a wonderful and rewarding experience. A dog will also provide a valuable deterrent to home-invasion crimes. We recommend a small, passive, NON-VIOLENT breed that barks, yaps and generally raises hell at every little noise. The barking will warn you of a potential threat, giving you time to act. If a socially misguided soul does attempt to hack his way into your home, immediately call 911. Try to reason with the intruder until help arrives. Tell him that you have called for assistance and that the peace officers are on their way. Inform him that you have no intentions of harming him. Reassure him of this by explaining that you don't believe in violence and own NO weapons of your own. Should the misguided intruder smash his way into your home despite your efforts, experts agree you should run like hell. Don't allow any obstacles to get in you way! This includes the bodies of other residents of the household or the yappy little mutt you purchased for just such an emergency. Should escape be impossible, utilize the Safe, Non-Violent, Limp, or the SNiVeL, Technique, which was developed by our own Josh Suckerman. Do The SNiVeL: *Step 1: "S" is for Safe - Assume a safe, fetal position, preferably under a table or other cover. *Step 2: "N" & "V" are for Non-Violent - Remember, remain non-violent. Moves that could be interpreted as 'self-defense' may only serve to further provoke your assailant. Offer no resistance. *Step 3: "L" is for Limp - Remain limp while begging and groveling for your life!!! This is no time for pride or courage, so cry like a girl, you fool!!! This will always serve you better than a firearm, which would only inject more violence into the situation. Finally, stay limp until your assailant has finished beating you like a rented mule. He will eventually tire from pummeling you mercilessly and choose to move on to a more entertaining endeavor, such as beating your spouse and/or children. After the attack, you can evaluate how well this proven technique worked for you. lol- more good stuff that the sight. http://www.handguncontrolinc.com/default.htm | ||
| Brucelee |
"I choose not to pack heat or sit in my home with a shotgun across my lap because I believe most people are good and are not out to cause me harm. I know there are evil people in this world but I believe they are the exception rather than the norm." It is fine for you to believe this and take action accordingly. It is also fine for US law abiding citizens to have the right to have a firearm in the house (registered and legal and all) and to use it against anyone who decides they are going to visit uninvited and unwanted. As I understand it, here in Kalifornia, I cannot use a weapon on an intruder unless I am prepared to provide proof that I believed my life was in danger (ie he had a weapon in sight). If that is true, it is weird and very stupid. Kind of like punishing the victims. If someone breaks into my house, I assume he/she has bad intentions and act accordingly. What a state I live in!  | ||
| M2me  |
You sure have a flare for the imaginative and dramatic. LOL!!! Thank you, Blake! Yeah, I'll admit that sometimes I go a little overboard. 62% of burglaries are committed during the day. Source? The FBI crime stat page. Nearly all burglaries occur when no one is home. Source? The Minneapolis police department web site. They don't give an exact number or percentage. Here's the reason most cops don't think citizens buying a handgun for protection in the home is a great idea and I share their thinking. First off, they know that nearly all burglaries will occur when no one is home. Second, it stands to reason that your handgun will be in a readily accessible place for your "protection". Okay, a burglary occurs and of course no one was home. That's good, no one was hurt. Now let's take a look at the list of items stolen. TV, DVD player, laptop, jewelry and oh yeah, the freaking handgun you bought for protection! I know this pisses cops off to no end. Now they've got another handgun on the street in criminal hands to worry about. I have nothing against guns and own a couple myself. But I didn't buy them for protection. I bought them for sport. I know if my home was ever burglarized they would probably be stolen. I should probably get a safe or something. What CJ described doing is exactly what most cops would advise you to do in the highly unlikely event of a burglary occuring while you're home. Ensure your own safety first and don't worry about the things the burglar might take. Those things can be replaced. The part about cursing your ex is optional and can be handled on a case by case basis. | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
Ok, but where is your source of the "Here's the reason most cops don't think citizens buying a handgun for protection in the home is a great idea" comment? Because i have known A LOT of cops(my father has been a State policeman since he was 22 years old), and have had the pleasure of discussing guns with many, and they all believed heavily in the right to self defence. Their lives maybe depend on that gun that they carry with them one day, and the police recognize that. The also recognize the fact that a civilians life may depend on a gun one day and fully support people who choose to arm themselves. As far a police man saying to call the police and hide, of course they will say that, so the police arnt liable if you confront the criminal and kill them or get yourself killed. (they are taught this now, in police academy, because everyone has a damn lawyer) That way you cant sue the •••• out of the police department. (Message edited by mutt2jeff on November 19, 2004) | ||
| Unibear12r |
Bruce, your basically right. Legally theres the other 49 & then theres us & it sucks. BTW I've even had some of the T.I. officers show me how they can tell if a live hand picked up a weapon or if a dead hand was wrapped around it. You keep your important papers, guns & valuables in a decent safe when your not home. The cost/benifit ratio isnt worth it for a burglar to mess with even if he knew how, which now days almost none do. | ||
| M2me |
Mutt2jeff, My source for the reason most cops don't think buying a handgun for protection in the home is the Minneapolis police department web site:
I agree with their thinking and also believe in the right to self defense but the reality is most handguns bought for protection in the home are never used for that purpose and are far more likely to end up in criminal hands. I always take the stand that when confronted with a bad situation the first thing you should do is not make the situation any worse. If there is a burglar in your home sometimes the worst thing you can do is go in the dark and confront him with a loaded weapon. This is what a number of people here seem to think is the right course of action. Protect your property! But is there one burglar or two? Maybe three? What if you are overpowered and your weapon is taken from you. Now you've got a situation that started out with an unarmed burglar stealing your stuff now armed and dangerous. You've been confronted with a bad situation and actually made it worse. Look at the situation Dyna posted about the business owner confronting a thief with a shotgun. This happens all too often. What starts out as a property crime escalates into a homicide, more often than not the business or homeowner is the ultimate victim. Obviously, if you're suddenly face to face with the burglar you won't have much choice but remember, all of this is highly unlikely to ever happen. So is buying a handgun for protection in the home such a great idea? | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
If you buy a handgun for self defence in the home, you buy the light that clips onto it as well, a point unfortunalty overlooked by many owners. These lights are often very powerfull and have the added ability to temporarily blind the thief, as well as let you identify who is in your living room  As far as being overpowered, their will be people dead before they every get my gun. The man who was overpowered and had his gun taken away from him probably made several key tactical mistakes, the first being that he didnt shoot the thief at the first sign of a threatining move. The second was probably being too close. My guess is that he snuck up on the thief to within arms length and then told him to freeze or whatever. The thief responded by turning and snatching the gun right out of his damn hands (this is my guess, i have no idea what actualy happened). In a home defense situation, you want to keep about 10 feet between you and the suspect, allowing you reaction time if they decide to do something stupid. | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
Also, the issue of stolen guns is very easily curbed with most gun safes, as they can be bolted into the floor, but thats another precaution most owners dont take. I personaly have a safe buried in my concrete floor that i keep my guns in then i am away from home. I also have a mount behind the headboard of of my bed that i slip my gun into when i am home, lets see them find that. (its imposible to see, you can find it only if you know where to feel) (Message edited by mutt2jeff on November 19, 2004) | ||
| Blake  |
John, "As I said before most burglars are just as afraid of you as you are afraid of them. If you encounter a burglary in progress the vast majority of time the burglar will flee." Where in the hell did you come up with that line of bullshit? Do you have ANY credible evidence to support that? If so please provide it. Good job dodging all my questions. Typical. I do agree that in Texas we can use deadly force against a fleeing thief. Texas is not a good place to be a thief/burglar. This is going to hurt you sorely John, you might want to close your eyes while reading the following... Burglary is a felony. Fleeing the scene with stolen (burgled) property comprises one stage of the act of burglary. It is thus legal in Minnesota to shoot a fleeing burglar as doing so is in good faith "preventing the commission of a felony", namely burglary. Okay, open your eyes now. Again in your imaginative fantasy above you equate having the right to defend property with some kind of Mad Max hell on Earth. Here's the truth. Yes they are a minority. That is a non-sequiter. I rarely crash. I wear a helmet. I strap myself into the car with seat belts. I retain the right to protect myself and my property. The truth is that if criminals knew that they could enter your home with no risk of meeting violent opposition, it is absolutely irrefutably true that crime would skyrocket. We would have chaos. It would be trick or treat every night and we would be at the mercy of thieves. How the hell do you get from discussing the right to defend/protect property to "turning on each other in escalating violence and mayhem and murder"? LOL!!! You sure have a flare for the imaginative and dramatic. LOL!!! Chances are that you will not need to protect your head against impact while riding. I sure hope you won't have to, but if you do, I hope you have a helmet on, otherwise you are likely to encounter serious and undesirable consequences. Chances are you will not need to defend your home against criminal invasion. I sure hope you won't have to, but if you do, it is likely that you will encounter serious and undesirable consequences. The chances for that happening are much much less when criminals know that they may face deadly force opposing their activity. To believe otherwise is naive, irresponsible and frankly just plain foolish. It simply is not in my nature to run away from my own home should someone invade it. I take that kind of threat VERY personally. | ||
| Blake |
Oh, did I already post that? I forgot since you in no way acknowledged it there John. Or did you close your eyes as I suggested? | ||
| Unibear12r |
All departments take that stance as they cant be sued that way. Even the one I worked for. All the same the majority of officers I've known in that department are pro private ownership. Can't count the number of times I've heard officers suggest that the victim on the call they were on think about buying a firearm for protection. | ||
| Roc  |
If you hear a noise in your house, and you are armed, then call the police. Stay on the line and toss them a key out the window, that way they don’t have to break your door. It has been suggested that a house key be kept on a visible fob, like the floating type for boats, in the bedroom for this reason. Let them clear your house so that you, the groggy and alone guy in his underwear, are not confronting a criminal and potential liability. Let who ever is there know police are on their way if you like. Have a point picked out that who ever is out there will not cross, the corner between the hall to the bedrooms or the top of a staircase, and stop them if they do. Identify your target. If you are not armed then God be with you. You are at a tremendous disadvantage no matter what you encounter and if you call the police you could end up a hostage. | ||
| Roc |
While in high school a female cousin carried around the house at the informal suggestion of a LEO. She picked up a stalker who liked to visit her at home, and who physically assaulted her more than once. Police could do nothing. | ||
| Redhatbuell |
It never ceases to amaze me that the rank and file cops are ignored by their "superiors" who run the unions/departments. You always hear about the police supporting gun control and gun grabbing politicos, when every beat cop I have ever talked to is painfully aware that they cannot protect the populace. In fact, most cops will point out that their job is not "to protect and serve" but to enforce the law, which unfortunately usually entails securing the crime scene, taking statements and crowd control. It is every citizen's responsibility to protect themselves! | ||
| Tramp  |
posted by blake: " 'The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.' Burglary is a felony. Fleeing the scene with stolen (burgled) property comprises one stage of the act of burglary. It is thus legal in Minnesota to shoot a fleeing burglar as doing so is in good faith "preventing the commission of a felony", namely burglary. " going one step further, i'm pretty sure that just the act of illegal entry is a c felony...anyone help me out there? not sure about texas, regardless, once the perp's inside all bets are off. cap 'im, unplug the tv and put it in his hands. | ||
| Rek |
All this talk about burglers and break-ins scares the poop out'a me. Newfie made the point pages and pages ago, which everyone cleanly missed: why would anyone live in a place they felt compelled to arm themselves for protection? I got guns out the whazoo--rifles, shotguns, pistols and more, and not one sigle one of them is what you would consider "readily accessable" I don't lock the door of my house, ever, not even when we go to Mexico for weeks at a time. I haven't taken the keys out of my vehicles since we brought them home. That is home secruity. Not some pathetic weapon that may or may not deter (sp?) an intruder. The fact that you worry about a potential (real or imagined) intruder simply means you should find a better neighborhood to live in. Rob | ||
| Outrider  |
Interesting to see the similarities between Texas and Minnesota Laws as both States issue concealed carry permits. However, it is even more interesting to see the interpretation of these Laws by individuals with conflicting opinions about the use of deadly force. | ||
| Polekat |
"Almost all break-ins occur when no one is home. Consequently, hundreds of thousands of handguns are stolen in burglaries and then used by criminals in committing other crimes." And if a rapist enters the house, is it when no one is home....most of the time? Women are usually the weaker sex and should have an equalizer if they so desire. Robberies gone bad are many times the result of some one being home when they shouldn't be. Is it better to count on the odds being in your favor or have some plan in place if the odds are against you. Even in the military it is difficult to get new folks to kill. Even in a fire fight in time of war there are those who never take aim and take a life with their eyes on the target. They close their eyes and pull the trigger or do even less. Most people are raised not to kill or injure others by family and church. If you live that way for 18 more years, it takes a lot to over come that training. A person who has never gotten to the point of shooting to kill has yet to find out if they are truly capable of it. If a person can not pull the trigger, they are just presenting a gun to the would be criminal. Make no mistake....the folks on both end of a gun suffer! (Message edited by polekat on November 20, 2004) |
