| Author | Message | ||
     Bomber |
we have a long history in the states of protecting ourselves from ourselves by removing tools from ourselves -- witness the hysteria after the movie "Blackboard Jungle," and the following laws passed, including at the federal level, against automatically opening knives (SKS, switchblades, gravity knives, et al) -- in fact, the hit for owning a switchbalde is worse in many jurisdiction than it is for carrying a concealed handgun without the proper paperwork -- of course, these laws have saved innumerable innocents from suffering the trauma induced by the once common drive-by stabbing! phew! while I'm a firearm owner, inertia has kept me from re-assembling the pieces in my house (taken down when my daughter became self-ambulatory), and the weapon is in one room, the firing mechanism is in the Entropy Lab, and the ammo, if any, is in the shed -- I maintain I have the right to own them, don't mind that I can't own an M60 (having humperd one for a couple of months, I'll gladly pass mine on to Tramperoonie!), have no desire to own a rocket launcher (though I wouln't mind firing one again ;-} -- mad minutes WERE fun!), I think Rocket has missed a point here while there are some firearms owners who do match the profile he described, like any other group, they represent a fringe of the larger firearm community -- just like those that jabber on endlessly about how everyone should be disarmed comepletely do not represent the majority for folks who favor some form of weapons control, and those the count the number of red and bvlue angles dancing on the heads of pins elsewhere -- oversimplification is fun, easy, a great hobby, but almost always inaccurate firearm ownership is fast approaching a religous status, with all the lack of thoughtful, evenhanded debate that would lead you to believe -- -30- | ||
| Tramp |
"Tramp, the sub machine gun you're probably thinking of would be the Schmeisser MP 38/40. A very popular movie prop. Interestingly it was the 'Germans that coined the term Assault Rifle with the "Sturmgehwer 44". You might also be gratified to know that the US Military agrees with your argument and recently changed the designation of the M249 SAW to the "Automatic Rifle". Of course the M16 series is still classified as a plain old rifle, select fire or not" thanks man- i'm painfully aware of said designation "Tramp I'm pretty sure there was a W.W.2 Japanese MG that was belt fed and/or hopper fed and/or excepted the standard rifle magazine. It was not popular. " yep- and there were several euro subs, belt-fed. they were such anomalies that i consider 'em concept weapons which existed in the evolution of modern firearms to get us to wwhere we are now. "While on the gun crank subject, the SKS was never full auto to my knowledge. Otherwise, Tramp's about right." yep- no full auto sks, and i did NOt designate that an ar HAD to HAVE full auto. no diagreement there, never was. incidentally, isn't the SKS just the mostest bang for one's buck? what a cool li'l norinco workhorse. as to the 'switchblade laws' nothing out there could BE more inane. it's legal in my state to wear a bowie knife openly (me and most of the fellahs i ride with often do), which is faster to 'draw' than any switchblade, and a one-hand opening folder with a knob at the base of the blade is legal, but a spring-op is a fed crime? what about the fact that ANY CO, fire warden, meat inspector, etc., can legally purchase an overpriced switchblade from any of the vast array of paramilitary equip. catalogues???? inane, man. technically, as a NYS DEC warden, I'm permitted to carry a switchblade.... as far as not being able to unnerstan' my AK/Buell analogy, i guess ya'd have to , as i'd stated, spend a long time in the field with one to understand how the 'ancient-design simlpicity' makes it so low-maintenance and superior in our modern world, much like my tuber. antique simplicity and bullet-proof performance. (Message edited by tramp on November 18, 2004) | ||
| Bomber |
inane? well, I'd replace one letter, and then I'd agree entirely! whenever we try to legislate morality, safety, or technology, it gets stoopid! | ||
| Tramp |
or add a letter | ||
| M2me |
Nope, the laws are not the same in all states. In Minnesota you can not use deadly force to protect property. Not even police officers are authorized to do that. For me the Minnesota law makes more sense than the Texas law. You shouldn't be able to kill people over personal property. You should be able to protect yourself from harm and in Minnesota you can. But you shouldn't be able to use deadly force to protect your TV set or even priceless jewels. That kind of thinking leads to people killing each other over a pair of tennis shoes or a five dollar crap game. It leads to jungle law where it's kill or be killed. Who wants to live in a society like that? | ||
| Outrider |
Gentlemen...I wish to take this opportunity to thank you for your response to my question concerning the legal ramifications of carrying a loaded firearm illegally. Again, I support the concealed weapons permit process in all 50 States. However, some will never adopt the program as they simply feel that they want to keep guns off the streets. Most with this position feel that the even those with legal permits to carry will have the tendency to personally escalate their psychological status to that of Self Appointed Sheriff, which loosely means sheriff, judge, jury and executioner. In essence, they do not feel the people in their jurisdiction are psychologically stable enough to be in control of a loaded firearm in public. A special thanks to BluBlak and Blake for introducing the firearms laws in Texas. The laws in Texas are very well written and the best I have seen to date. They are a clear and concise guide to what a citizen can or cannot do to defend themselves and their property. My only question about the Texas Laws concerns public (read: off premise) carry. As Texas is a "Shall" issue State, am I correct in assuming that in public these legal use of deadly force guidelines only apply to individuals that have a concealed weapons permit? Aesquire made an interesting comment concerning the correlation of States issuing concealed weapons permits and the decrease in the crime rate. It is a proven fact that in Florida, a State that in the last ten years or so implemented a concealed carry permit program, the crime rate dropped drastically. Quite simply a Perp is more concerned about committing a crime when there are folks around as the Perp has no clue concerning who is or who is not armed. I would consider this to be a psychological suppression of crime. Over the years, I have carried both legally and illegally. Whenever carrying illegally, it was a 50/50 deal were the peace of mind the firearm presented was offset by the anxiety of getting caught carrying illegally and the legal ramification on my record, not to mention the fines, legal cost and potential jail/prison time. As a result, employed avoidance as my primary security strategy. In essence, I no longer went to high risk areas of town and changed my driving/riding habits in order to not upset others. At the time I was living in Orange County, CA and as a sales rep had to make calls in some of the nasty areas of LA County, not to mention, a lot of this was during the Road Rage Freeway Shooting Era. Concerning the legal carry, I did not have a concealed weapons permit as the current Orange County Sheriff would only issue them to his buddies and there are a lot of humorous and ironic stories about this sheriff that someday will be revealed when I publish my first book, "I married my NARC." Well, the loophole in the law that allowed a legal carry was for use at your place of employment. In essence, it was at the employers discretion whether or not he and whomever he asked to volunteer to be armed to protect the employees and business from personal assault or theft of inventory and machinery, especially the computer networks. As the surrounding neighborhood declined and problems arose from the gangs, we went to extremes to protect the property and employees but the problems continued. The gals were sexually harassed inside the wire, cars were being vandalized, the buildings were being defaced and the finished goods inventory was being stolen and found at the local swap meets on the weekends. As a result, in addition to the President, two of us were requested to carry on the premises. It was a very discrete concealed carry and the employees were not made aware of the situation. However, one of us was always present before, during and after hours to insure the employees safety when entering and leaving the property. Additionally, when working late we were required to patrol the premises. Of interest, once we started patrolling we never had another problem and nobody could tell we were packing. Of interest, the LAPD taught a course to its officers on how to apprehend an armed perp from up to 20' away when the officer is unarmed. It is an interesting course and quite effective. A friend and his wife who were officers in LA's South Central District (a really bad hood) taught a few of us the course and we had a great time once we understood what we were doing. I am not going to bother with the details as I am sure the course has been improved upon, is now taught nationwide and there may even be books and local courses that you can take to learn the techniques and psychology of the maneuvers. Perhaps some of the LEO's on the BWB would like to elaborate on this matter. In closing, the sole purpose of my posts on this thread is to prompt you to think about the ramifications of carrying a firearm illegally. A lot of you are going to do it anyway and I wish you all the best. However, there are some that may find this information enlightening and decide to not take the risk and plan for other survival techniques. Incidentally, for those of you that do pack firearms with or without the required permit, please continue your live and dry fire training exercises so that you keep your skills honed. Hollywood isn't the best mentor in this category as they focus on the drama and leave a lot of the movements and firing positions out. | ||
| Outrider |
Tramp...Interesting point about the exposed Bowie Knife Carry. Blake, Road Thing and/or anyone else from the Great State of Texas care to elaborate on the Bowie Knife carry laws in Texas. I vaguely remember reading a few years ago that that was illegal. | ||
| CJXB |
But you shouldn't be able to use deadly force to protect your TV set or even priceless jewels. So if those items are IN my home, I just stand there ?? Oh and I'm not supposed to be AFRAID, crazy person in my home and won't leave when I ask nicely ?? That's CRAZY !!! Someone I don't know is standing in MY home with me and won't leave, screw the TV and Jewels, I'm afraid and I think I should be able to use some force !! If he doesn't make me kill him fine, but if he does he didn't belong there to begin with !!?? CJ  | ||
| Tramp |
it's illegal to carry an akansas toothpick or any such double-edger here in NY. oddly, a usmc 'ka-bar' style knife, with such a short upper edge, is perfectly legal to carry as long as it is NOT concealed. and frankly, i carry my old opt-issue sog bowie concealed at times, and when police have noticed it, they've never hassled me at ALL. a few have asked if they could check it out, for personal curiosity, and remarked on what a fine piece it is. i guess enforcement around my state assumes that a bowie kinda goes with cutoffs and 1%er regalia, a sort of foregone conclusion which is officially tolerated in deference to the implied red-blooded patriotism of said (abeit oft-self-legislated)lifestyle. | ||
| M1combat |
In AZ you can carry non-concealed in most places whether it be a knife or a gun. Concealed carry either way requires a permit. | ||
| Outrider |
M2ME...I agree with the absurdity of your kill or be killed scenario regarding preventing someone from stealing personal property especially considering the trivial examples you used. Better to just give up the sneakers, etc. as replacing them will cost a lot less than your legal defense. Furthermore, I believe that the Texas Laws as clear and concise as they are, are based on reasonable force as well. Perhaps some Legal Beagle down there could research the Court decisions on questionable shootings which most likely make you feel better about the Laws. The inverse is, if you are subjected to a life threatening situation, I feel there is proper cause to employ the reasonable force method of protecting your life, family, property, etc. if one choses to do so. Me, I prefer to get the required info, report the crime and collect on my insurance unless I am in a life threatening situation. Additionally, popping off a warning round or two is an excellent means of stopping a crime in progress provided you can safely do so without jeopardizing the safety of innocent bystanders. The shock value of the noise alone is worth its weight in gold. Then again, this is contingent on the local jurisdictions regulations concerning the discharge of firearms. In my case, the municipality forbids it and to make matters worse, I live across the street from a school. If I pop a cap, even in warning, I am in deep yogurt no matter how you cut it unless it can be proven beyond a doubt that it was a matter of life and death self defense. Back in the early 70's the issue of self defense in the home came up in a classroom situation and a Detective LT from the Milwaukee PD quite simply said it was an illegal shoot unless it was in self defense and that the best way to prove that in court was to prove the perp shot first. Considering not all perps carry guns, the recommendation was to have a throw away (unregistered gun), put it in the dead guys hand insuring his finger prints were in all the right places and then pop a round back in the direction you shot from. It was good advise at the time. However, since then, forensics can tell if the prints were made before or after death. Catch 22, eh? | ||
| Outrider |
CJ...In your TV scenario, it is most likely that if you surprised the perp stealing your TV, the perp would turn on you and your personal safety would then be in jeopardy. For additional info, check my post to M2ME concerning previous (read: really old but possibly still in effect) Milwaukee practices. | ||
| Sportyeric |
We don't allow people here to buy penicillin whenever they like. Even if some people could use it responsibly, there is too much risk to society in having it too freely available. Same with plastic explosives, plutonium, and so on. Lots of things that we, the people, acting through our government, agree not to make too readily available. Drinking a beer while driving is another. (Not impaired, just thirsty.)(FYI, I could own a handgun if I belonged to a gun club, or acted as an informer and refused witness protection, or had some reason, other than the generally invalid excuse of self-protection.) Although Outrider's description of the lawlessness of Orange County has me going,"mmm." I'll admit I'd get a kick out of playing with some of that stuff. Fine machining and things that go boom are both neat. But I'd disapprove of it the same way I disapprove of excessive speed on public roads even while I indulge in it myself. And Aesquire,when Canada gets invaded, it'll be for our oil and water. That's why I keep up my skills with the bow and arrow. | ||
| Stealthxb |
M1... What do you think about the Benelli Nova Pump? | ||
| Tramp |
sportyeric- we can't buy penicillin whenever we like down here, either. (i'm currently taking 3 big shots a week-YOW) we need a prescription, though i definitely own that irt's way, WAY too easy to get. unless it's from your country, then it's impossible. | ||
| Outrider |
Sporty...Not to worry, the US will annex both Canada and Mexico. That way we get your oil and their over-the-counter penicillin. LOL Not to sure what the plans are for Pemex. Oh well, at least it will give some of CA's and TX's oil refinery construction companies something to do since the Middle East has gone to Chinese Contractors.  | ||
| Newfie_buell |
These days Bill there are even US Citizens flying into St. John's, NL for influenza vaccinations then immediately flying out again. | ||
| M1combat |
Stealth - I figure if you want a pump, you should get a Remington 870. They are cheaper and parts availability is a LOT better than anything Benelli makes. I hear the Nova is a very good rifle, and if the M1 is any indication it should have VERY good recoil characteristics. Due to the fact that you need to cycle the weapon manually anyway, that's not that great of an issue... I think I like the 1014 as well, but I haven't fired one myself so I don't know if they'll be "legendary" like the M1. I suppose if I was getting a pump gun for hunting I would probably get the Nova though. For home defense I would go with the 870 because they are tried and true (like the M1), but I imagine that the Nova is a technically superior rifle to the 870. Keep in mind though, all of the Benelli's I have held were very light, especially the M1, so they kick like EIGHTEEN frickin mules. It's absolutely hilarious to hand my M1 to someone with seven OO buck rounds and one 3" Magnum slug as the last one . I try to only do that to people that shoot fairly regularly so they don't drop my $1000 rifle in the dirt... The reactions I've gotten to that are worth the cost of the rifle alone . | ||
| Outrider |
Newfie...Thank you for providing the vaccine service. Of interest, the radio stations in Milwaukee are broadcasting a Federal Government commercial saying something to the effect that an ample supply of vaccine is trickling in and everyone will be able to be vaccinated in the next month or so. If true, I wonder why it was such an issue during the recent election. LOL Oh, by the way. When we annex Canada, we are going to have to let some part of it remain independent so we can keep our supply of Cuban Cigars flowing. Do you think NewfieLand would like that designation? | ||
| Outrider |
M1...Don't forget to mention the abundant aftermarket for the Rem 870. You can turn that thing into a real street sweeper for very little and still convert it back to hunting form when you want to pop the birds. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, I think if you want a defense oriented pump gun, the 870 is the way to go. If you wan't a street sweeper type though, you just have to consider the M1... More lead in one second than a 9mm pistol in one minute, and at a higher MV... I don't think it's a good proposition to have a shotgun that you use for both hunting and defense though... The barrel will be either too long for defense or too short for hunting. One more thing... The M1 is a great deal more accurate than the 870. Both with slugs and shot. This is due to the recoil not flipping the barrel up and to the right. The front sight doesn't even really leave the ghost ring. | ||
| M2me |
Furthermore, I believe that the Texas Laws as clear and concise as they are, are based on reasonable force as well. No, they clearly state "deadly force" may be used to protect property even if the perpetrator is fleeing. But only at "nighttime" which is kind of weird. So if somebody breaks into your house at nighttime and is stealing your TV, according to Texas law you are within your rights to put a couple of slugs in their back even if they are unarmed and fleeing the scene (with your TV). I think that's crazy! Burglary is certainly wrong but I also believe killing someone to protect personal property is also wrong. Remember Newfie's earlier question? Are you willing to live with the consequences of killing somebody to protect your property? What if it turns out to be a 17 year old kid with some sob story of a broken home, etc.? Would you be able to enjoy watching your TV knowing that you killed somebody just to retain ownership of it? I know I couldn't. I think anyone who could must place a higher value on their property than they do on human life. I think it's ironic that a lot of the so called red state, "moral issues" crowd probably disagrees with me on this. BTW, the vast majority of burglars are unarmed and do everything they can to avoid encountering the owner. If you do encounter a burglary in progress the vast majority of time the burglar will flee. There are exceptions of course but they are rare, much rarer than most people seem to think. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
But its TEXAS  | ||
| Sportyeric |
When we get annexed, those who don't move to Australia will petition for full statehood and then vote Democrat and start leading you out of the mess your in. We'll probably cut Texas loose. Won't need their oil with Alberta onstream and Albertans are marginally easier to re-educate. And speaking of education, we'd get sex ed into your schools so as to cut down on the need for penicillin. (Message edited by Sportyeric on November 18, 2004) | ||
| Newfie_buell |
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Good One Eric | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Just my two cents worth, I own an old side by side 16 bore shotgun for vermin, & recently aquired a 9mm single shot bolt action rifle in need of restoration. they're locked in a steel cabinet in the garage, so not much use for a quick reaction or for home defence; for that I've got a paratroopers knife, (like a large Bowie knife but black so you can't see it in the dark) If my family was in danger & I had access to the guns, yes I'd use them & worry about the consequenses after. I've only ever had loaded firearms pointed at me twice in 45 years, both times in Texas! Once was a loony with a rifle sitting on the roof of his house in San Antonio, and the other time in a truckstop just outside Austin, the owners son stuck an automatic in my face and demanded the film from my camera after I took a picture in the truck park. I got mad when he started yelling & his father came out, so I told him to f*** off or i'd take the piece & stick it up his arse, he was so surprised he never even moved when I walked past him into the coffee shop. I'm not fond of guns particularly, it's not something that floats my boat, what worries me though is the ease with which, complete & utter dickheads can get hold of a weapon in the US, dead is dead no matter if you're right or not & I'm mighty glad I don't have to think about that here. | ||
| Mutt2jeff |
Subject: Guns vs. Doctors Think about this: A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000. B. Accidental deaths caused by physicians each year is 120,000. C. Accidental deaths per physician are 0.171. (US Dept of Health & Human Services) D. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000. E. The number of accidental gun deaths each year (all age groups) is 1,500. F. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.0000188. Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners!!! FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR!!! Please alert your friends to this alarming threat! We must ban doctors before this becomes epidemic! As a public health measure, the statistics on lawyers have been withheld for fear that the shock might cause people to seek medical attention! PROPERLY EQUIPPED Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this!!!! This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a portion of a National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base? GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it? GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children? GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm. FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers. GENERAL REINWALD: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you? The radio went silent and the interview ended. All over America, people were thinking: Semper Fi, Marine! Man i wish i had heard that interview, i would have been rolling on the ground holding my gut and trying to breath.  | ||
| Outrider |
Sporty...You got me good with that one. Guess I had better start applying for Citizenship in the New County of Texas. Sounds like Valhalla to me. You know, work or starve to death, be responsible for your actions, and live above all live free. Interesting to think of what all could be accomplished in Texas if they didn't have the BS Bureaucrats from our Federal Government dictating to them. | ||
| Knickers |
http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.htm | ||
| Blake |
John (M2me), You must have missed the part in the Texas law that says you must be at risk of serious physical injury to justify using deadly force. Have no doubt that even in Texas, shooting someone in the back who is running down the street pushing your lawn mower will land you in jail for a very very long time. Who said that "all states" echo Texas law on deadly force? I said that "lots of states" have similar law. That is true. Blows your mind don't it?... All the poor down-trodden criminals put at risk of being shot. Boohoohooo. I will not turn away any man who is hungry or needs clothing or a place to sleep and asks for my help. I have no compunctions against defending my home against anyone who through threat of force seeks to invade my home and lay claim to my property. You of course are free to pander to criminals and permit invasion of your home by unsavory characters as you wish, but if you seek to impose and enforce such a pacifist philosophy upon me, you will become a threat to me and thus my enemy. As far as a man's right to protect his property, what the bleeding heart liberal city boys fail to consider is the theft of a man's livelihood and a family's means of putting food on the table. In Texas we have a LOT of extremely valuable easily harvested portable property in secluded but easy to access locations. Cattle, cash crops, well-head equipment, heavy equipment, oil, timber are all relatively easy pickings for a determined thief. I have a friend who not too long ago was robbed of 50 acres of mature yellow pine. That timber comprised the college fund for her little boy. Gone. Stolen. |
