| Author | Message | ||
     Vegasbueller |
Well at least now I know where all the fervor and venom from the now closed Political Thoughts thread ended up. Anyone looked at the post count on this puppy lately? geees! Nick.. who has fully tested and understands that countersteer can begin your trip through a turn like a rocket sled on rails | ||
| Rocketman |
You know, it amazes me that some of you guys think I'm trolling. You're pis5ed. I've got better things to do with my life. I've sat up until 5 am several times this past week or so, trying to fcuking educate you in this one thread. My fault I admit, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to get my point across now after all the effort I've put in. It's common knowledge that this is the most talked bull story there is when it comes to riding a motorcycle. You can smart up what you think you know about the dynamics of a steering damper, spring indeed haha(do I sound that stupid?) but some of you ain't got a clue when it comes to using one. You can post pic's of a one armed guy racing a Fireblade, but even with the way HE'S using a steering damper staring you in the face because of his disability, you're still blinkered. Think outside the box. That's what the one armed guys doing. Improvising the way in which a steering damper is used. Ask yourself how the guy would be riding the corners if he didn't have a damper? It simply does what is says is does: dampen movement by offering resistance. Either one way or the other. It doesn't apply a force in either direction. Consequently, a steering damper will NEVER push or pull. Absolutely, and as you say Ingemar it does offer a RESISTANCE, and that's what the one armed guy is taking advantage of. Henrik, I pretty much disagree with everything in your last post. Your hand is palm side down no matter what you want to call it? As for your arm having plenty of room to move, not holding that inside bar it doesn't. Nor does it have any pushing ability worth a carrot in that position. As for the seating position you describe, you're sat nothing like that in that pic. Your arm is assuming more of a boxers punching action if you were to move it back and forth. Your upright 'seating in a chair' scenario has your arm pumping more up and down than any other direction and you sure don't ride an SV650 like that. Not even with those drop bars of yours. As for my 'seated experiment', you should have ended up seated like you are in your pic, then tried writing. Obviously you got the position wrong, or you use one of them fandango roller tipped pens! That's cheating. M1, further to the trolling explanation I offer above, and I appreciate your apology despite my grumpiness of late, I don't believe we are doing the same thing if you all insist you push on the inside bar rather than pull on the outside one. I don't care what Code or anyone else says. To me it seems pretty obvious that the most control is offered from the outside bar. More leverage, less restriction of arm movement, your body mass is on the underside of the outside bar etc etc etc. Everything stacks up AGAINST pushing the inside bar. I absolutely guarantee you and anyone else, you just can't push the inside bar on a 916. Looking at Henrik's SV I'd say the same would be so for him too. Dyna, who's trolling? Fcuk off! Court, I appreciate your efforts at international peace. I will offer this explanation in the case of the one armed fella racing a Fireblade, assisted by a steering damper perhaps as I've suggested, ah hum, unconventionally? From one of your favourite fart smeller's...... One thing I did that I'll mention was just a whole ton of experimenting with the nitrous this year, much more than I've ever done, just trying to get my arms around the bottle pressure and fuel pressure and jetting and timing relationships. That was really helpful, and the results ended up contradicting a bunch of the conventional wisdom. Moral of the story, if a tech support guy at a nitrous company tells you point blank "that won't work!", take it with a lake bed of salt. They have very little experience or knowledge of what does or doesn't work at Bonneville. Here's what the one armed guy had to say about racing a Fireblade..... One thing I did that I'll mention was just a whole ton of experimenting with the damper this year, much more than I've ever done, just trying to get my arms around the damper pressure and mounting positions and pushing and pulling relationships. That was really helpful, and the results ended up contradicting a bunch of the conventional wisdom. Moral of the story, if a tech support guy at a damper company tells you point blank "that won't work!", take it with a well full of hydraulic oil. They have very little experience or knowledge of what does or doesn't work for a one armed guy. Clever stuff this internet racing! Rocket | ||
| Buells Rule! |
who's trolling? Fcuk off! I'll take trollbaiters for $500 Alex. Ohh its the daily double  I'll bet everything Alex. Q..Insidious troller on Badweb. A..What is Rocketman. And for proof I offer up this nugget Henrik, I pretty much disagree with everything in your last post. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Hey Rocket, I think you spelled a couple words wrong!!!! hehehehehe  Boys, Can we take this to one of my local pubs, everyone fly in and I'll pick you up. The first three beers are on ME. | ||
| M1combat |
You got the question and answer part backwards. Rocket... I agree that you "can" pull the outside bar for the same effect. I've stated that before. The problem with doing that is EXACTLY what you say is the reason you want to do it. The leverage. I'm not the strongest guy I know, but I assure you that I have at least enough strength to pile the bike right into the pavement with my inside arm pushing forward on the inside bar... Leverage is only half of it, the other half is control. Why do you feel you would get better control by pulling? I'll admit you have me at a disadvantage on the leverage issue, but what about control? Remember that you are controlling brakes, clutch and throttle as well (not that I thought you had forgotten, the subject just hasn't really come up). I submit that because you are controlling the bike from the rear of the bars, any controls that you need to operate on the front of the bars will be operated more efficiently and with less disturbance to the bars themselves. Aside from this though... Keep in mind that we still have that little disagreement about the initial direction that we turn the bars when initiating a corner. | ||
| M1combat |
That would be a Blast Newfie... Do you have snow yet? I remember a couple of years at least when I was younger in Alaska getting up to a couple feet of snow in late September. Snow machines are about the only toy I enjoy nearly as much as a motorcycle. I think good karts are a close third. | ||
| Rocketman |
Spelling mistakes? Where? Do you know how much time I waste correcting my ramblings. Shame on you Newf for exposing me in public. M1, there's a million reasons the outside bar offers more control. Well maybe not a million. It's simply a question of the longer the lever. Try undoing a tight nut with a standard length Snap-On ratchet handle then try it again with the longer length handle. Try it with a short combo wrench then a long combo wrench and I guarantee you will get more feel, never mind the purchase, for the torque you're applying. Obviously there's a point where too long is over much but we're not talking Boss Hoss here with wide wide cowhorns. Similarly, there's a point where a short handle wrench is best served, but I don't believe the same applies to the pushing of the inside bar. Let's just clarify a little too. I'm not saying one doesn't apply a certain amount of pushing force to the inside bar, I'm saying that one will always pull the outside bar instead and not just as a preference. Pushing in the minutest sense would be attributed to a steadying action, or aiding the control of the outside bar being pulled. Other than that, as in a small movement of the inside bar, one doesn't push. I think I've explained my position on this previously anyway, but perhaps clearer. I'm tired and the bourbon and coke is kicking. Nope I hadn't forgot. My brain hurts and I did say I was going to look further into that one - and report back. My, it's nearly 3 am and I'm going to bed. My dedication to the BadWeB needs some sleep. Speaking of dedication. Dyna, you're still trolling. Do you know Saab's are built by Trolls in Trollhatten? You disgrace them hahaha  Rocket | ||
| Newfie_buell |
This one just keeps getting better all the time? Hey Glitch where is the popcorn guy!!!! M1 there won't be any snow worth talking about till January - just gets cold here very soon and it kinda is hard riding due to black ice. | ||
| M1combat |
Well, I guess we just ride differently then as I feel I have more control over pushing. I feel that using the brake and clutch are easier and upset the bars less if I am pushing with NO pulling. My outside arm is nearly limp. Just enough energy going into it to keep it a little ways off the tank and it's goal is to just let the bars do what my inside arm is telling them to. | ||
| M1combat |
It's too bad the racing season is for the most part over... I think after the races when the winner is waving to the fans.... They almost always wave with the outside hand. This indicates that they feel more comfortable steering with the inside hand. | ||
| Crusty |
Isn't SAAB an acronym for Still Another Arrogant Blastard? The morality police won't let me say the proper word | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket I think has hit on something with the longer lever statement concerning the outside bar -- of course it's likely within millimeters of the same length as the inside bar (manufacturing tolerences and all), but I'm thinking the outside bar offers more apparent leverage considering many rider's position on the scoot while initiating a turn not being as impressed with my own creds as others that are posting here, I'll simply state that I, once again, tried pushing the outside bar and pulling the inside bar on my way to work this morning, and both worked I am, however, known for my ability to convince myself of darned near anything, including the potential for cordial international relations, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding | ||
| Glitch |
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| Evaddave |
Leverage might be a key here, but I'm gonna agree with Bomber that the lengths of the bars are pretty much equal, discounting manufacturing tolerances and hand position. Turn the lever idea around, though. What's easier to control if the source is at the center, a short lever or a long lever? Try this: grab a yardstick (or broom handle or other long implement) and pick a spot on the floor or wall and try to touch it with the yardstick. Now pick up a ruler and try to touch the same spot. You have more control with the shorter lever. Back to the bike. When you initiate the turn, you should already be leaning or hanging off the bike. Which is shorter, inside shoulder to inside handgrip, or outside shoulder to outside handgrip? Inside, naturally, so that's where you have more control. Ok, so what if you don't lean in or hang off, but instead stay centered over the bike? I think that's simply a matter of riding position. If your arms are outstretched, it's going to be easier to pull, if your arms are compacted, it'll be easier to push. Personally, I push. I know this because I've taken my outside hand off the bar when going around (right) turns. For a right-handed turn, I push forward on the right handgrip. The wheels, magically, move toward the *left*. The rest of the bike, however, rotates about the center of mass, and leans into the curve. Throughout the curve, I maintain pressure to the right handgrip, but I vary the amount of pressure. Does that mean that the front wheel is always aimed toward the outside of the turn? Nope. It just means that I'm acting against the natural tendency of the front wheel to turn farther right. -Dave | ||
| M1combat |
Thanks Dave  ... At least one more in the correctly countersteering group . Bomber... Please re-read your post... I think you may have swapped a few directions or something . I think that dave made a good point about the control you can have over an object that is close vs. far. Keep in mind though, I personally think that with practice, either pulling the bars or pushing them can produce the same precision in control. My problem with pulling the bars lies in the addition of controlling the brakes, clutch and throttle. | ||
| Rocketman |
I'll simply state that I, once again, tried pushing the outside bar and pulling the inside bar on my way to work this morning, and both worked John, wakey wakey. You're supposed to try and PUSH the inside bar and PULL the outside bar Ok, the wrench scenario went over your heads. The point was made to make you understand the affects of torque. When the bike is leaned into the corner it takes a lot more effort to push the inside bar than it does to pull the outside bar. Haven't we been here already? The outside bar will feel longer than the inside bar. That's because it takes less effort to control its movement. Personally, I push. I know this because I've taken my outside hand off the bar when going around (right) turns. That completely misses the point. Anyone can do that but it doesn't prove a thing. We are strictly talking here of controlling the bikes movement around a corner by using the pushing method on the inside bar. It is my contention that this push method is nothing more than the sensation you feel when you think you are pushing when in fact you're actually just feeling the opposing force and somewhat counter acting against it. Perhaps because the force is felt greater coming towards you on the inside bar, that's what's confusing most of you. You assume because you're acting against that hard felt force, you simply must be doing all of the cornering by pushing. I tell ya WE all PULL on the outside bar for corner control, but you probably can't feel it on more conventional sit-up and beg style bikes because it takes less effort to apply. Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
you'all are right, I was riding with my hands crossed in front of me again -- needles to say, though, that the front wheel doesn't seem to care whether the force is introduced by pushing the bar, or pulling it -- they both work time for my nap ;-} | ||
| M1combat |
"Ok, the wrench scenario went over your heads. The point was made to make you understand the affects of torque. When the bike is leaned into the corner it takes a lot more effort to push the inside bar than it does to pull the outside bar. Haven't we been here already? The outside bar will feel longer than the inside bar. That's because it takes less effort to control its movement. " No sense in insulting my intelligence. The wrench analogy certainly did NOT go over my head. It takes EXACTLY the same amount of force to pull on the outside bar as it does to push the inside bar. The difference is in the leverage you have. Got it . "nothing more than the sensation you feel when you think you are pushing when in fact you're actually just feeling the opposing force and somewhat counter acting against it." Uhhh, yeah... That's pushing. "You assume because you're acting against that hard felt force, you simply must be doing all of the cornering by pushing." The force applied at either end of the bars is the same, the leverage is different. I actually do my cornering with just my inside hand. I'd probably be a little wobly if I raised my outside hand in the air but only because it would feel abnormal, not because it was responsible for input. I'll say this again - "My problem with pulling the bars lies in the addition of controlling the brakes, clutch and throttle." | ||
| Rocketman |
It takes EXACTLY the same amount of force to pull on the outside bar as it does to push the inside bar. The difference is in the leverage you have. Got it Clear as a bell, which is why I, not you, mentioned EFFORT. Your above statement would be true if a perfectly aligned machine were at the controls? But one is not. Instead there's a floppy squidgy thingy doing the driving, and it tends to come in all sorts of shapes and sizes yet not one of them can remain statuesque at the bars. The applied force is no way the same at either end of the bars and that's what we're talking about. The applied force. The force that takes an effort for you to deliver. Not the force the bars are delivering to your hands. What you feel on the one hand isn't the same as the other. On the inside the force is pushing. On the outside the force is pulling. How you apply force to counter and steer is the effort it takes you to control it. That effort is easier to apply by pulling on the outside bar. Choosing to give precedence to pushing the inside bar is a load of crap because it takes a truck load more effort. Quiet simply, it's just harder to do. Why most of you think otherwise is beyond me. In any case, you have trouble controlling the throttle, brake or clutch when pulling? Come on. That's crap and you know it. The controls of a motorcycle are and never should be difficult to use, no matter what. Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
a floppy squidgy thingy doing the driving hey, Rocker -- we've never met, but I"m not altogether sure I like the idea of your having lurked around so you can describe me so well! strangely, the various and sundry positions on this thread are coming to the same point, it would seem . . . .hmmmmmmm | ||
| M1combat |
You are correct Rocket, you do have less leverage to push on the inside bar, but that's exactly why it's better to push on the inside bar. When the bike runs over a bump mid corner, the bars have a greater ability to do what they want to do in order to maintain line. They have more leverage to exert into your countersteering arm so you as a rider can do less to mess things up. The bike will pretty much figure out where the bars need to be. With more leverage on the outside bar, the bars will have less ability to go where they want to. Anyone know a top AMA or MotoGP rider? What do they do? Do they all do the same thing? Cicotto? Barnes? Actually, my guess with any of the top pro riders is that they will have discussed this already, and have decided it doesn't matter. The original point was whether or not you turn to the outside or inside of a corner first though. I have conceeded long ago that both pulling and pushing will produce similar results. You seem to have decided you don't want to discuss the actual issue though Sean. Why? I don't need to know... Next issue? Maybe an issue about lines? | ||
| Neversellit |
I Push on the inside Bar because it's more FUN! And, that is where my weight is going. This is Not saying Rocket is Wrong. | ||
| Blake |
At elevated speeds a road racer will simultaneously push on one side and pull on the other (pure torque) to get the bike quickly leaned into a high speed corner. | ||
| M1combat |
I think that's correct for the initial lean, but to maintain lean or to adjust line, I think you are best served by using only one hand for input so that your hands aren't fighting each other. Just MO... | ||
| Aesquire |
M1, Holding a counter steering effort all the way through the turn, seems to be dependent on setup/geometry. ( I forgot! tires! ) My M2L did not change it's handling a bit ( that I could tell ) when I put on the S3 fairing. ( my comfort at 60+ changed ) But! when I put on the S3T bar, the change in weight distribution did a big change in handling, seemed to make it more neutral. Maybe raising the fork in the triple clamps 1/8" or so will make your bike not need continuous input to stay leaned over. ?? I could be completely wrong on this, I welcome feedback. (Message edited by aesquire on October 22, 2004) | ||
| M1combat |
Due to the self correcting geometry of rake and trail combined with lean I think all bikes need at least a little input... I could be wrong . | ||
| Rocketman |
You seem to have decided you don't want to discuss the actual issue though Sean. Why? Are you kidding? I'm sick of discussing it. Remind me, what is the actual issue? That I said ALL ALONG one DOES NOT PUSH with the inside bar, and one DOES STEER into the direction of the corner initially? Those are the two things I've discussed from the get go, and I've not once changed my belief or said otherwise. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
I didn't say you had. It's just that it seems general consensus is that it doesn't so much matter whether you are a puller or pusher. I know you've always said that you turn into the corner initially. So far I haven't read where you have agreed that you turn out of the corner to roll into the corner. That's the issue I meant. As I recall, you feel that at no time do you point the bars outside of the corner... Unless I missed one of your posts. Quite frankly, I'm willing to agree to disagree about that subject (even though I know you do turn the bars outside initially, it's the only way) in the interest of moving on to (back to) lines if anyone still wants to discus them. I'm QUITE sure we can have just as good of a discussion about that and maybe race-craft. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ok, point taken. I agree there is a point to turning outside the corner, with the application of counter steering, but only to control the corner. Suffice to say, and I thought I had already, I don't agree that one initially counter steers to get the bike to corner. That's something one does when in the corner already. I know there are exceptions to the rule, possibly. Speedway riders come to mind. Having never ridden a Speedway bike I can only assume their riders counter steer massively to get into the corner, but, and that's a big but, there circumstances are exaggerated way beyond riding a road bike on tarmac. I'd also wager they counter steer in the manner they do by pulling hard on the outside bar. I'm happy to discuss lines. I'm a master of them. One thing that's important to understand though, if you're an American, is the best line might often mean crossing the double yeller! Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
No... If there's double yellow it's best to pick the best line on your own side of the double yellow. It forces you to be more precise if you ask me... "I know there are exceptions to the rule, possibly." Motorcycles only work one way. If you're going real slow then you can lean your body and steer into a corner, but as soon as you hit about 15-20 you MUST steer to the outside of a corner to roll in. If you don't you won't be capable of snapping the bike over. Think of the situation in the middle of the first corner of a VERY tight chicane (Think the first chicane after the tunnel at Monte-Carlo or the Bus Stop at Spa...). When you are leaned to the left in the middle of the first corner (It's a left/right chicane for those of you that don't know those tracks) and you need to be leaned to the right for the exit... Which direction would you steer? You would steer to the left to remove lean until you are straight up and would continue steering left to add lean angle to the right to be able to make the second apex. You are driving the tire patches around underneath of you. If you need to lean right, the tire patches need to go left. You steer left to initiate lean to the right. A "master" of lines eh? |
