| Author | Message | ||
     Steve_a |
Court -- you flatter me too much. I'm planning on eventually putting my Buell writings together into a book. I've ridden everything from the RR1200 on, with road tests or introductions on most of them. Someday . . . And Abe is one of those engineers who's so bright you need sunglasses to talk to him. Erik has put together an amazing team in East Troy. Blake -- Agreed, the gyro effect is probably secondary, but it's not insignificant. The gyro effect increases with speed, which is why it takes more torque to turn a bike at higher speeds. There was an Italian company building a front wheel assembly with geared, counter-rotating brake discs to minimize the gyroscopic effect, and that effect was also the reason for 16-inch front tires for awhile during the eighties. However, it seems likely you could build a ridable two-wheeler with minimal front gyro effect. | ||
| Thunderbox |
You are so wrong Keith. I suggest you go for the ride and pay attention. You are going to be embarrassed. | ||
| Henrik |
From one of the true authorities on MC design/engineering: http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Tyres/TYRES.htm http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/GeomAPB/Steering.htm http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Steer/STEER.htm | ||
| Blake |
"Look at pictures of a bike really leaned over in a turn. Which direction is the front wheel pointed relative to the direction the bike is turning?" Once in the turn the front wheel points toward the inside of the curve. Maybe this old graph will help...  Steering Angle Versus Time in Turning a Motorcycle at Speed The best illustration would be via video cam showing a view of the front end and the road/lean angle. Wish I had one. | ||
| Rocketman |
That Bull Shite bike proves nothing about initiating a turn other than it isn't done by shifting body weight.. In Keith Code's own words "I'll leave it up to the tech boys to figure out the WHY of motorcycle counter- steering. Their job should be to provide a simple demonstration of how it works. The fact is that countersteering is still being argued in the halls of learning with slide rules, Physics formulas and calculators. Many theories exist but no conclusive statement that I know of as to why has yet been reached. Argue on boys. In other words, all that BS bike does is prove that leaning DOESN'T initiate turning, which is pretty contrary of Keith Code really because he keeps calling it COUNTER STEER. Tony Foale has missed the turn in by at least one nano second and gone full on for counter steer technique. I'll deal with this later when I have more time. Friday night is for fighting and my pint of Yorkshire's finest is getting warm on the bar. Rocket | ||
| Court |
>>>>In other words, all that BS bike does is prove that leaning DOESN'T..... Right you are my "shoot then ask" friend!.... And, moved by the need to PROVE and DOCUMENT, a nice fellow from Mexico City set out to PROVE it. The challenge was so great as to become fodder for a Master's Thesis at Berkley entitled something like "The Dynamics of Two Wheeled Inline Vehicles". Based on some dandy grades and kudos for his work let me suggest the FACTS have been PROVEN. Let the internet tomfoolery continue. Court | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
This is like circuit racing, look ,here they come again.  | ||
| Court |
>>>This is like circuit racing, look ,here they come again. Now THAT's funny! | ||
| Tripper |
Amen Grumpy, and they make me laugh every time.  | ||
| Rocketman |
No one has actually proven it thus far on this board, though you can quote some mighty fine names to support your own delusions. Let's face it Court, as much as I like ya, you always were a name dropper. I will return with the facts. If I'm wrong I'll put my hand up and say so. Now I really must dash. Bathed, shaved and ready for action Jackson, let the trim hunt proceed. It's Friday freekin night!!!! Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
Whenever I have this argument with somebody (which is as seldom as I can arrange), I use the following scenario to get them to convince themselves that they already know the right answer, they are just not aware of it. Picture yourself hauling ••• down a hill on a mountain bike. You are flying. Put both palms outward pushing only on each handle bar. Your hands are open so you cant "pull" anything. Make them, at this point, actually sit in a chair and put their hands palm out, close their eyes, and visualize it. Now tell them to make a hard right turn at speed. Keep their palms out, and keep visualizing hauling ••• through the corner, tell them to actually lean their body and imagine they are carving through the turn. Now say "quick! Wave to me while still turning". They will almost always get it correct. They will lift up their *left* hand. Which means that they could *only* be pushing on the bars with their right hand to make a right turn. In other words, push right to go right, and steer left to go right. People *know* this, they just don't know it. Seriously. Try this with somebody. | ||
| Court |
>>>Let's face it Court, as much as I like ya, you always were a name dropper. Finally....we agree on something! I'll post more details about name dropping after next Tuesday night.  You are, I confess, like whipped topping are at your best when slightly stirred up. Groooooooooooooooooowl | ||
| M1combat |
That's a good one Reepi . And yes Grumpy... That WAS funny . | ||
| Buellkowski |
 Sorry it's a Triple, but it's for illustrative purposes. | ||
| M1combat |
We all agree (I think) that mid corner, your bars will be turned to the inside. The discussion is about which direction to turn to initiate lean. If that was obvious and you were making a different point with the illustration... Feel free to slap me if we ever meet each other  . | ||
| Buellkowski |
Counter-steer...  | ||
| Buellkowski |
Or is that "cow-ntersteer?" | ||
| Rocketman |
The discussion is about which direction to turn to initiate lean. Nope, currently it's about which direction to turn to initiate TURN. Any of you cared to ride this week , AND TRIED TO PUSH ON THAT INSIDE BAR, or are all those in disagreement with me, beyond trying? That's my first point no one's bothered to clear up. Do we pull on the outside or push on the inside bar? My next point was, which direction do we turn to initiate turn? Those with working motorcycles, you owe it to this discussion to at least go and try. Rocket | ||
| Smoke |
checked out the procedures numerous times on 2 different bikes. push left to initiate lean to commence turn, opposite for right. looks like y'all are stuck on semantics. get out and ride! have fun, tim | ||
| Keith |
Thunderbox said "You are so wrong Keith. I suggest you go for the ride and pay attention. You are going to be embarrassed." I just did. I rode my bike at 40 mph and pushed the left hand grip. Guess what? It turned left. I continued to hold pressure on the left grip. Guess what? The little XB continued to turn left. Now Thunderbox (Dave), can you honestly tell me you have done this since your last post? At parking lot speeds (I'll admit, I'll have to define what this is),one must tun the handlebars in the direction you want to go. This does not apply to higher speeds. Yep, Dave, I'm pretty darned embarrassed. If I ever ride to South Dakota again, perhaps we could meet some where for a beer and go for a ride? But I'll be paying attention. Will you? Keith | ||
| Blake |
Even at parking lot speeds, if the rider doesn't shift his/her weight the rider must turn the front wheel, abeit an imperceptable amount, in the opposite direction of the turn. The laws of physics are the same for a slow speed turn as they are for a higher speed turn. Bottom line, if you are turning, you are leaning, and in order to lean, the contact patches... aahhhrrrrggghhhh... rweeekrweeekrweek... must move out from under the center of mass of the bike/rider. Why do I have a feeling that thread is about to reach some kind of critical mass and explode. | ||
| Aesquire |
So...... When's the best time for braking? IS a late apex always desirable? | ||
| Blake |
From what little experience I've had racing I'd say that on a race track the best time for braking is as late as possible and all the way to the apex. But when I first started out and for some time after I only really braked up to my turn-in points. Staying hard on the brake while leaned over can be a real stress inducer. A late apex is not always the fastest way around a turn; it totally depends on the track. If the turn exits to a long straight, then a higher exit speed is advantageous, so the sooner you can get the bike upright and pointed down the straight the better. Meaning the shortest line around the turn may not always produce the quickest lap time. | ||
| M1combat |
Braking really depends on your intended line, but yes, it's generally adviseable to wait as late as possible. One exception would be when you know you need to sacrifice a position going into a corner to have a clean and better line than your opponent coming out. Even then though, you still will wait as late as possible and still make your intended line. One important point of braking is that you should do the LION'S share of it in a straight line. You mostly want to use your available grip while rotating for acceleration and direction change. On a motorcycle I believe that you should transition from brakes to throttle during the initial lean at corner entry or soon there after. A closing radius corner will require you to bleed speed well after turn in and sometimes up to the apex. Plenty -O- Pucker factor in those ones . Personally I think you should at least be rolling on the gas at the apex for nearly every turn. Keep in mind that sometimes the real "kink" in a corner can be a ways outside and before the "apex", so you can get on the throttle well before the apex. This is mostly true in corners well over 90 degrees, but works in nearly all corners to some extent. Only on the "fast" line though. The passing, racing, and defensive lines work differently. As a disclaimer - I believe I understand the finer points of the goals (race craft) much more than the techniques to achieve them . | ||
| Rocketman |
Tim, you didn't say which way you turned, and can you tell us what make and model of bikes please? Rocket | ||
| Ingemar |
I can't believe I'm getting involved at this. So many people have said how it works and it's so simple to try it out yourself. When I either push the left side of the bar OR pull the right side, the bike turns left. Its as simple as that. Unless you converted your bike to a trike, that's how it works. Low speed, high speed. Anyone claiming otherwise is WRONG. And I'm sorry if that offends you. When I have both hands on the bars I both pull and push. I have the impression my right hand does less work pushing/pulling the handlebars. Now can we get back on topic? That was lines, wasn't it? Let me throw this at you guys. When I come up to a chicane, for some reason I seem to always screw up and overcook the second part of it. Some say I don't look ahead enough (and indeed I don't always do that), but still even if I do I try to look at the whole thing coming up at me and decide at what speed to enter. I ALWAYS screw up and for some reason I can't correctly decide by looking ahead to whats coming up at what speed it can be taken. I'm talking about roads I'm not familiar with. Tips? Track days and advanced riders courses are planned for next year ... | ||
| Smoke |
rocket, s1 & road king, the turn should be obvious but, left hander, push left bar initiating left lean to continue through the left hander, opposite for right. continue procedure left and right as much as possible for extended grin factor. please dont drag me to much further into this discussion. haha. ride safe, tim | ||
| Keith |
Jlnance, Maybe someone has already said this but I'll say it again. The best line on a race track is not always obvious to the novice (me). Last weekend, I raced at Cresson Motorsport Ranch (http://www.motorsportranch.com/) south of Fort Worth, Texas. It was my first time on that track. I had been studying Marcus McBain's track maps (http://roadracinghelp.com/LessonBook/track_maps.htm) and thought I could get around the track at a reasonable speed even though the lines Marcus showed in his maps did not make a lot of sense to me. What I found was a very technical track with blind entries to turns, off camber turns, bumps, etc. It was much more difficult than a two dimensional track map led me to believe. Well, after a few times around the track, I found I was much slower than I had hoped but Marcus' lines started making sense. When bumps and off camber turns are present, the shortest path around a track may not be the fastest. Hope this helps, Keith | ||
| Rocketman |
So many people have said how it works and it's so simple to try it out yourself. Ok, this has gone on long enough. Unfortunately I'm outta here in 5 mins and I probably won't get chance to ride tomoz either. So here's the deal. All you guys and gals that insist on pushing the inside bar to initiate turn in the opposite direction, here's the reason it isn't as simple, clear cut as you think \ believe. You're missing the finite movement of turning the bars in the direction you wish to steer. Because the movement is so finite, and the bike leans very quickly, before you know it you can FEEL the counter steer, but you missed the initial turn in. Worse still, if your experiment is to push the inside bar to support your theory, it's taken you a week and neither of you have realised why that's a bag of shite argument. The moment you push into counter steer, obviously the bike will want to turn the opposite way, but by pushing from the get go you missed the turn in action of finite steering control. Next time you try this experiment, don't push on the inside bar, gently steer in the direction you want to go and you'll realise you steer into a corner. Try it before you buy it! You know, I don't know why I bother sometimes. Keith Code and Tony Foale have got fcuk all on me. Rocket | ||
| Ingemar |
I tried to ask a question to get back on-topic. It was a serious question after all... |
