| Author | Message | ||
     Kano832003 |
what's up...i just recently got about $2000 worth of work done on my 2002 M2 Cyclone. this included a Forcewinder Intake, V&H slip on exhuast, re-jet kit and a new cam. the problem i'm running into is a horrible lag below 2000 RPM's!!!!! the bike has even shut off twice during warm up and i'm having some small problems getting it started (just takes a second longer than before). i'm wondering if they forgot to re-jet the carb or if they did it wrong or if the V&H just needs to be broken in. any help would be appreciated. | ||
| Spiderman |
Sounds like one of two things, Could be too rich hence the lag at 2gs. But the taking to long to warm up makes me think that you pilot jet may be too lean or they didn't mess with the air/idle screw. Was this tuned on a Dyno with a EGA? | ||
| Mikej |
Rule number one of Buell ownership: Do not try to ride a Buell at less than 2000rpm. Rule number two of Buell ownership: if you add a higher flow intake and exhaust system on your Buell, and if you change to different jetting on a carb'd Buell, then see rule #1 only in BOLD emphasis. By "lag" I assume you mean when hitting the throttle and not idleing. Roll open the throttle and get the rpm's up to a minimum of 3,000rpm before doing much with the throttle. This is what works for me in any case. YMMV. | ||
| Mikej |
ps, welcome to the badweb section of the internet. pps, listen to Spidey.  | ||
| Kano832003 |
i havn't had it dyno tuned yet because they said i need to have at least 1500 miles on it first. and just so you know i don't cruise at less then 3000 RPM's. the only time i see lag is when i'm taking off from a stop sign or a stand still. you can even notice it when the bike is just idle and you crack on the throttle. | ||
| Buelliedan |
You need to tell us what you mean by lag. Buells are different than Harleys. They are pigs under 3,000rpms. | ||
| Kano832003 |
i've also noticed what seems to be a loss of torque even tho they said these upgrades would greatly increase my torque??? | ||
| Mikej |
Could just be fine tuning the jetting and setting the a/f screw like Spidey said. Does it bog down when you slowly roll open the throttle, or only when you whack it open some? | ||
| Kano832003 |
By lag i mean you hit the throttle hard from a stand still and the bike acts like its going to kill or stall and the nose dives to ground. i've even experienced a little blow back through my intake. | ||
| Mikej |
The "felt" torque will feel different than in stock form. How does it compare now in the 4000rpm range compared to before the changes? | ||
| Kano832003 |
i havn't really notice the lag if i slowly open the throttle but then again i don't do it offten enough to be sure if there is lag there or not. i'll have to check. | ||
| Mikej |
Could just be normal lag then. You have a lot more air available and less restrictions going out. See how it behaves while riding it above 3,000rpm, or more specifically above 3500 as that's where these seem to start to come alive. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Torque is relative. By going to bigger cams you probably gained torque but its probably in a higher rpm range than before. Stock M2s produce really nice torque around 2500-4000 rpms then start to fade off(most folks live in this range however) X1s produce their best torque about 3500-5000 rpms. It doesn't sound like much but they are like 2 completely different bikes when switching frome one to another. My X1 sounds just like yours when taking off from a start, it almost dies until I hit about 2500 rpms and if cold will sputter and backfire out the intake. So I guess what I'm really trying to say is that it sounds like your bigger cams are the primary cause of this. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I'd say you changed the torque curve with the bigger cams. Now I got to go home and see if the damm S1 lags off idle, I have never experienced that, usually when I nail the throttle from a start the front wheel goes skyward when it hits about 3000rpm - that must be the lag. Don't worry about over time you will be able to wave to people with the front wheel as your passing by. OH Yeah, listen to Spidey and Dan | ||
| Kano832003 |
well i appreciate all the help and info. i'm gonna call my dealership on tuesday and see if they can take a look at it. i seriously think they screwed something up. i'll ask them about some of the stuff you guys have posted and let you know what i find out. thanks again for your help. | ||
| Mikej |
Probably not screwed up, just not fully dialed in yet to take full advantage of the upgrades you added. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
1500 miles sounds a little long for the break in. 500 miles I can see, but 1500 is even longer then the factory break in on a brand new motor. When sitting at idle, does the idle itself "hunt" or stay steady? | ||
| Kano832003 |
500 miles is the first break in period. that's what i just took it in for to have all this done to it. and when i asked them to dyno tune it they said that i had to wait untill i had 1500 miles on it before they would dyno tune it. i was also wondering if there would be any problem with removing the rear fender/belt guard??? i look up under the seat and i can see all sorts of electronics. i'm worried that taking that fender off will alow rocks and •••• to fly up and hit that stuff. anyone heard of any problems with this??? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I see, I read it as they want you to wait a total of 1500 miles from the time of the mods, not wait til you hit the 1500 mile mark on the odo. That makes sense in a way. Also, does the bike idle smoothly or does it hunt at idle? I am asking because I am wondering if when they added the Forcewinder they may have caused an intake leak that is causing the engine to stumble as it tries to gulp more air then it is able to handle at that RPM. | ||
| Mikej |
Just a thought but does the Forcewinder have the breather slot or did you get one without the proper slot on the flange? Pics are posted on the site here someplace. | ||
| Blake |
Sounds like a problem with the accelerator pump or low speed jetting (pilot jet, idle mixture). I don't buy the requirement for an extended break-in after top-end work. A quick gradually increasing break-in is best. You should be able to run it on the dyno in no more than 500 miles, personally I think if done carefully you can run it on the dyno right away, just follow a gradual increase starting with a 1/4 throttle 1/2 rev limit run progressing incrementally up to a full throttle full rev limit run. Rings need high pressure to seat optimally. If I were you I'd find someone qualified willing to tune the carburetor and timing for you asap. | ||
| Kevyn |
Mikuni | ||
| Spiderman |
Wow looks like the post I tried a few hours ago didn't go thru? So here goes. What kind of cams do you have? Second if you do have X1 cams your jetting should be as follows. 190 main jet 45 pilot nedle (if it is a dynojet kit) at the clip3rd from the top. and your air idle screw at 3and 1/4 turn for the mods you have. Also your dealer needs more training on there dyno jet. You do not need to do pulls to get here tuned in. They should plug the EG reader in the pipe, and run it at idle then in 4th gear at 2,3,4,5 and 6 grand to make sure the AF mixture is right | ||
| Blake |
You mean "Lightning" cams? | ||
| Biknut |
yea, what kind of cams. sounds like to much cam. | ||
| Jst |
I think the dealer doesn't want to take it to redline in the first 1,500 miles. My dealer told me the same thing with Em. I'm betting thats why they think it's to soon to dyno it. | ||
| Kano832003 |
this is what the invoice says: V&H Slip-on, X-1 Buell Forcewinder XR2 92-0 Jetkit BUE M2 T-SLID Andrews N4 Cam 00-03 and the 1500 before the Dyno tune was to make sure everything like the seals and •••• were all set and good to go. | ||
| Kano832003 |
it dose sound like there might be a leak in my forcewinder somewhere and the engine dose sound like it's stuttering but no worse than any other harley and i'm not sure if it did that before the mods (was really quiet and hard to hear). P.S. i really appreciate all the help, it's cool to have a place to go to ask questions like this and not get the run around. | ||
| Henrik |
as mentioned, you ought to pull the force winder and check that the casting is not blocking the vent hole in the carb. Check Aaron's report on the issue Henrik | ||
| Djkaplan |
It's not a leak in the Forcewinder that could be causing your problem. Check for a vacuum leak at the rubber seal around the intake manifold. Spray some WD40 around the area while the bike is running - if the idle changes, chances are you've got a leak. This problem may have occured during the the carb re-jet. Sounds to me like you just need to have the bike properly tuned. Older Buells really aren't the best bikes for riders who don't do there own wrenching and tuning. (Message edited by djkaplan on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Djkaplan |
Just out of curiosity (doesn't have anything to do with the problem), how did who ever did the work for you route the breather lines from the cylinder heads? Did they fab a catch can or feed them back into the intake? | ||
| Biknut |
ok it's not the cam. that cam has good bottom end. also check the ign timing. if there's no intake leak, check the carb. does the slip on have a removable baffle in it? make sure it's in there. | ||
| Kano832003 |
i called the dealership today and they told me that the jets may not have been tuned correctly and that they will look at it and fix it for free. the only downside to this is that i have to wait till next week tuesday to have it done. if you ask me they should make time to look at it since it was probley there screw up, but at least it's gonna get fixed. dose anyone have an after pic of the forcewinder with the bowl vent area ground out with a die grinder??? thinking of doing that to mine but just want to make sure i make the right grind. | ||
| Blake |
 Photo from Aaron's report Old/good configuration on left, bad/new configuration on right Use a die grinder to make the new one look like the old one. Simple.  | ||
| Shotgun |
FWIW, my guess, they left the accelerator pump link or rod off when they reassembled the carb. I've done it myself many times. Without it, the accelerator pump does not kick it so it's a slo go up to revs. It falls out when you turn the carb upside down to change the jets. With it back it, you be wheelie ing up the road, bro. | ||
| Fullpower |
N4 cams on a 1203cc with factory flat tops around 9.8 compression should be rideable down to 2000 rpm, around 2800 it ought to bring the front wheel up. if it is not pulling strong below 3000 you may want to check ignition timing try for around 28 to 30 degrees full advance. and put a mikuni on it. | ||
| Kano832003 |
man...this thing just keeps getting worse. i just got back from a ride and when i pulled in my clutch to stop at a stop sign the dam thing killed and wouldn't start without the choke pulled. i can't belive the dealership could screw a bike up this bad. i paid them the money so it wouldn't get screwed up...i could have done this myself!!! |
