| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
There's a young girl in my place of work purchasing a first new bike. She wants a CBR600F4i, which I think would be a lot of bike for a newbie rider (zero experience). The 600 class isn't what it used to be. I tried to steer her towards an SV650 for a sporty alternative, but no luck. Opinions? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I refused to sell my 2003 ZX6RR to a brand new rider. A bike that could hit 100 in 3rd before you hit the end of an onramp is not a newbie bike at all. | ||
| Glitch |
Opinions? When she's not looking, steal a plug wire. | ||
| M1combat |
Or two... At least convince her to buy good gear before the bike... | ||
| M1combat |
Let her know how much the fairings and that sort of thing will cost WHEN she drops it in a parking lot. She will. | ||
| Whodom |
Zero experience? IIRC, a CBR600F4i is over 100 RWHP. NO WAY. Tell her what several riders with extensive experience (one a 3-time iron butt completer) told me: (1) Take the MSF beginner course. (2) by a SMALL USED motorcycle. She may get half-way through the MSF and find out she doesn't really like motorcycles, so ~$150 is a small investment to save ~$2000 ($7000 purchase price for new bike less $2000 depreciation when she tries to sell it 6 months from now). If she gets through the MSF and starts riding, she may find out she doesn't like it that much, or she doesn't have time to ride that much. She may find out she wants an entirely different kind of bike from what she originally thought. If she starts out on something with 100RWHP, one sneeze might put her in the hospital or the morgue. Even though I was 46 years old when I started riding, I followed this advice and I'm glad I did. I picked up a Buell S3 AFTER I'd ridden my small used (1983 Honda VT500 Ascot) for 2 years (and ~15,000 miles). I would be supremely careful trying to ride a CBR600 now. I shudder to think what I might have done if I'd started out on one. Tell her she can buy a decent used bike, ~500 cc for ~$1000-$2000. If she's set on a sport bike, how about a 500 Ninja? Ride it for a year, sell it for just about what she paid for it. THEN buy the crotch-rocket-from-hell or whatever she wants to ride at that time. (Message edited by whodom on September 21, 2004) | ||
| Mikej |
http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcmax/mcphotos/max5-1.html  | ||
| Tucsonxb9s |
What Who said. That's just nuts. Those bikes are a handful for even an experienced rider. She really needs to think about learning to ride first and I'm not talking the MSF. Get a solid year or more under her belt before getting something with that much HP. Even a SV650 has enough to get her in trouble. | ||
| Doughnut |
I have to agree. I took a MSF class; learned on a 250 Nighthawk,(awesome little bike), and my first bike was my S2. I never had any real issues, but I think I would have felt more comfortable and secure starting with a smaller bike. | ||
| Dino |
If you could reprogram the computer to red-line at 5K an F4i would make an excellent beginner bike...well, other than the ergos and the seat, and all that plastic waiting to get creamed. | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm sorry but I disagree. The current crop of 600's are just so easy to ride that no one has to get into trouble on one. Someone buying a 600 as a starter bike must have enough brain cells to understand what they're getting into. Like I always say, the throttle works both ways. The only way to learn is by experience and a CBR600 will offer plenty of experience to the inexperienced rider. We have to protect our pastime, not scare people away from it. At the same time making people think who know no better that motorcycles are dangerous unless in the hands of the very experienced is just hammering another nail in the coffin of uninhibited motorcycling. Tell the girl to get the best she can afford, and enjoy it, but point her firmly in the direction of riding with the experienced and not to be lead into temptation until she is sure she's got the handle on what the bike can do. Wish her well for having some balls, and remind her, training is not a bad thing, and track days are a great place to enjoy the steep learning curve if she wants to ride a fast bike fast anytime soon. Rocket | ||
| Koz5150 |
My first bike was a 700. It was plenty fast. Thing is, it's not the bike, it's the mentality of a rider. I think a 600 is jsut fine to start out with as long as she has her head screwed on straight. If she doesn't, she can easily hurt/kill herself an any 250 on the market. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, You have been away from being a beginner for far too long. A current 600 is a monster motorcycle for a beginner. Vicious powerband, no torque, awkward riding position, wildly expensive bodywork, etc. Rick_a, if your friend wasnts a 600 she must want to look cool. Tell her to get an XB9SX CityX, and get a low seat if she is under 5'7". She will love it, it will be forgiving, and she will get all kinds of attention! | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Rocket your words are wise for the most part. The only thing I disagree on is the lack of throttle control. One of the hyper600's takes very little throttle to get a new rider over their head very quickly. The 600 class used to be the perfect class for a beginner to start, grow and expand, and there are still 600's out there that do that exceptionally well, but the hyper600's don't. | ||
| Vegasbueller |
I agree with the MSF course too. I would beg her to do that before doing anything else. I have been riding since I was 4. (almost 30 years) I went a few years off the bike, and I have to say I got a LOT out of the MSF course. We had a squid in the making in the class I was in, and the instructor humbled his butt a few times, and I think that made an impression for the better on him and everyone else in the class. | ||
| Easy_rider |
I had a late-80's 600, and even though it was about even in a quarter-mile with the S3 (probably a little quicker) it was an easier ride. I haven't been on an F4 but I expect some things are the same -- tame until about 6500 and a beast after that. It's not like a twin that will jump no matter what the rpm. If she stays below 6000 she should do relatively well. That being said, highly recommend she take a class and recommend she start with something a little tamer that doesn't have the temptation of using the power for evil and the potential of getting away from her. | ||
| M1combat |
A person needs to learn throttle control before they try 100RWHP. It's not that it can't be done, it's just that when she gets into a situation there's no telling what she'll do with her right hand. Or the front brakes. At least start on something where if they lock the front they just low side. that doesn't include any modern sport bikes that I know of, even the 250's, but it's better than the alternative. I agree, maybe Rocket hasn't been a beginner for too long. I see your point though Rocket, but it's not always about what you choose to do in what seems like a rational situation at the time. "Heck, there's 61 miles of straight road ahead... Lets see what happens..." Vs. "HOLY FLYING CRAP BATMAN!!! A FRICKING SKUNK JUST RAN OUT IN FRONT OF ME!!!! STOP!!!" Too bad she's mid corner (doing 45 in a fifty-five) and just grabbed a tad too much brake. Just a tad... Wouldn't be a problem for most of us with experience, but she'll tense up and tank slap. I say the best way to preserve our hobby is by NOT selling too much bike to a new rider. Nothing makes a headline like "20yr old girl killed by guard rail" No skid marks, No sigs she even reacted... She just froze. Just incase someone was wondering - I don't say any of this because she's a she... I think women probably have a much better chance of surviving a 600 as a first bike. It's that whole lack of testosterone thing. The problem is, it only takes one moment of not knowing what to do. She pulls in the clutch because she feels tense about "something" and then it materializes... A truck running a red from the left. She revs it up to get past. Ooops... I forgot to let out the clutch... I'll just do that now. Yeah, she's on her ••• because she wasn't expecting the response from the bike... etc... etc... etc... | ||
| Koz5150 |
Besides opening the bike wide open on a straight road, I haven't read anything that couldn't happen on a 250cc "starter" bike. I still believe that your brain is your worst enemy as a new rider. | ||
| Rick_a |
She's going to take the H-D Rider's Edge course...she also wants a "crotch rocket". I learned to ride on my S1. The toughest thing for me to learn was to overcome the top heavy feeling in slow parking lot speed corners. I rode like a raging arsehole then and still do now!  | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
...1/4 twist on a starter bike generally equates to a 2500rpm increase, 1/4 twist on one of the hyper600's equates in a 5000+RPM increase. | ||
| Mikej |
Keep us posted on how she does if you don't mind. Always interesting to watch beginners progress. | ||
| Midknyte |
We had a squid in the making in the class I was in, and the instructor humbled his butt a few times Vegas, How'd he do that? | ||
| Dino |
I agree with M1. It's not just about acceleration. Koz, I doubt that many (any) starter 250s have the ability to flip the bike right over the front wheel if you squeeze the front brake lever too hard with two fingers...a 600RR sure can. Get careless with the clutch with too many revs on the clock...flip the other way. I agree that 600s aren't all that dangerous, once past the stage that just about anything untoward can cause a panic reaction. Until then, and that may be one month or five years, they're too much for a novice. | ||
| Rocketman |
Koz hit the nail on the head. Riding any size bike safely, even when going balls to the wall fast doesn't start with training, it starts in your own head. Mental adjustment beats the hell out of training. Sort your head first and the riding will come easy, and be a hell of a lot safer. Rocket | ||
| Dino |
Okay, Rocket's convinced me. Rick, tell her to skip the F4i and go straight to the Tuono.  | ||
| M1combat |
The problem is the Magnitude Koz (/edit and Rocket). Little mistakes turn big real quick on something like a modern rocket. It's not the speed... It's the responsiveness, the power, the ergonomics... It's not conducive to learning how to deal with traffic and hazards. It's entirely different on a motorcycle than in a car obviously... A person's mind really ought to be used to the whole two wheel counter steering idea before they hop on something with less than 30 degrees of rake... It's like putting a brand new pilot in an aerobatic plane. Everything will be so touchy they'll fall off the ball in no time... They'll knock themselves off the ball. (Message edited by M1Combat on September 23, 2004) | ||
| Vegasbueller |
Midknyte: Usually just by answering with one of his little smart A** quips, with " and you'll be dead" Or "Does your mom have good life insurance on you". | ||
| Rocketman |
I disagree with that too M1. Why would they? Put it this way, your comment makes sense on paper but in reality we all adapt. My first few days \ weeks on the 916 were a little like you described, so I learned what the bike was doing before I had the confidence to push it really hard. That learning curve took me not so long. For sure a novice or person with no experience will probably take a lot longer to get dialed in, but what's holding my experienced arse back was my head, not my ability, and that's the same thing that will hold the novice rider back for longer, until they too gain the ability. Sussex police rider Simon Labbett has studied three years of fatal crashes. His results suggest the psychological profile of the skilled sports bike hedonist makes him by far the most likely to have a fatal accident. When Labbett studied all 55 accidents he discovered 37 of them concerned 25 - 44-year old men on sports bikes in open country on summer weekends. Most dramatic of all, in 92% of the cases rider error was the main factor. Yet when Labbett canvassed the opinions of 256 riders at bike meets, he found two-thirds of them blamed car drivers. The reason? "In town, careless drivers are a problem," said Labbett. "So riders think they are the problem on open roads, too. That's a myth." Two week-long speeding studies point to a cluster of what Labbett calls 'sensation-seeking' sports riders. "Our attitude survey shows they have a different psychological outlook - as if they're using bikes as an outlet, rather than having an enthusiasm for the general motorcycling experience." "In these crashes, lack of control isn't always an issue," he said. "It's more the attitude of the rider. I think training is useful, but the most important thing is to address behaviour." Rocket | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Rocket the anology of you and your 916 is a good one for getting used to a new bike, however prior to the 916 you already had some experience riding. You already had the basic concept of what you needed to do and think about in order to ride. You weren't still in the process of thinking twist for gas, clutch with my hand, brake with my hand shift with my foot while learning your throttle control. All that was already instinct. Take my anology earlier, on the regular 600's like say an SV650, if you grab 1/4 throttle it might be a 15-20 horse jump in an instant, but you grab 1/4 throttle on a CBR600 and that can be a 50-60 horse jump in an instant. You add the brand new rider tendancy at target fixation when the bike does something unexpected because their brain freezes in trying to remember what bodypart needs to do what. My only problem with a BRAND NEW rider starting out on one of the hyper race reps whether its a 600 or an R1 isn't the handling aspect, its the amount of power on tap in an instant. In your quote above the author doesn't touch on whether or not his subjects are brand new riders or riders that have been on the road for awhile. A rider with experience is just as dangerous as a rider with no experience if the behavior is as you pointed out, and with that I will agree with you 100%. I still remember a friend of mine in Hawaii, brand new rider never ridden before. He ran out and bought a TL1000S and over the next 2 weeks, he flipped it 3 times. The third time into the back of a car. In all 3 instances, it was a lack of throttle control. The first two times, he was simply trying to gas it to go around a slow car, only to gas it WAY to much by simply whacking it WFO. Revs hit the powerband and WHAM. The third time, he tried to panic stop, grabbed the brake and clutch without rolling off the throttle, then when the rev limiter hit, instead of rolling off the throttle he let go of the brake and clutch at the same time. Now the last could have happend if he was riding a bike with half the power, true, or it might have simply managed to lift the front wheel high enough to hit above the cars bumper. Not actually flip the bike onto the trunk. | ||
| Blake |
Bottom line is that the ergonomics and performance characteristics of a repli-racer are not helpful for a beginning rider. A new rider needs to be able to spend most of his/her concentration on the basics, not on how much their wrists hurt or how gingerly to apply the front brake. The closer a motorcycle's ergonomics and handling resemble those something with which they are already familiar, like a bicycle, the better. No bike with a frame mounted fairing is a good beginner's bike. IMNSHO  |
