| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Okay.....when they were babies (egad....20 years ago!)  I love'em! | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
John we werent perfect, but I also know that if I smarted off to my mom or a teacher then chances are I was going to get popped in the head. Now days the kids will scream they are going to call the cops..we would never have dared to say such a thing. Hell you cant even spank your kid anywhere near a public place or some goody two shoes will call 911 & you will be hauled to jail. Look at that deal I believe it was in Ohio where the women spanked her kid in the mall parking lot & it was caught on tape. They just about had a nation wide man hunt for a damn spanking. Give me a break. | ||
| Court |
The idea that you are going to beat (convince me that spanking is different from beating) anyone and change a bahavior is rediculous. Now, before you start, I received and gave my fair share. I just always marveled at how I felt like I was spanking to assauge my anger, not "teach" them. I quit and have never regretted it. I'm not prescibing, just stating. The incident in the car, if it was the one I saw on the store camera, was a beating rooted in anger. Court | ||
| Easy_rider |
A friend of mine has three kids. He noted that one only understood being spanked. Another you could beat all day and get nowhere, but could't stand being sent to spend time in her room alone. The boy fell apart if you just looked at him cross-eyed. That seemed to me to support that all kids react differently. It pains me to spank my daughter as it did my stepson before. After a warning and timeout, or if it's behavior that has resulted in a spanking before than punishment is immediate and sure. The result is that I generally have little problem with the kids listening to me. Pammy. No need to apologize. Your opinions are welcome. Though I don't know you I expect your spankings would be too! I may as well go all the way out on limb -- I believe Blake is holding your hickory..... | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
And no visble marks or bruising were left on the child at all. The women was upset & half of her lame swings didnt even make contact. There is a huge difference between a spanking & a beating. I certainly dont advocate it as a cure all by any means, but sometimes mere words & speeches from the parent arent enough to convince. Why is it considered ok to use positive reinforcement for a job well done but negative reinforcement is frowned upon? There comes a time when sometimes a person just needs to have their ••• beat. | ||
| Pammy |
Let say Dyna and I are in the mall parking lot...I have misbehaved and not followed the rules he has set for me. We are both adults mind you....He has layed into me with a "well deserved" spanking...would the cops be called, if witnessed by a passer by? You betcha! Should women(or men) who don't listen to reason be "spanked into submission? Is it allowed by law? Not anymore. How are children ever to learn that they are worthy beings deserving of respect if they are not taught? That Blake....such an upstart | ||
| Pammy |
"The woman was upset"...what was it she was trying to "teach" her child? Half of her swings didn't make contact? Maybe she shoulda used a bat. My ex husband smacked me so hard once it disabled my ability to close my mouth or to see clearly and it knocked me to the ground. I was unable to right myself for about 6 or 7 minutes. Guess what....didn't leave a visible mark or bruise. I, however have vertigo and TMJ for the rest of my life thanks to his lesson. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Should women(or men) who don't listen to reason be "spanked into submission? Is it allowed by law? Not anymore. But we are "spanked". Think of it like this, as a child the only way to punish them is either with holding something they enjoy, such as TV or a favorite snack, or sending them to their room etc. When that doesnt achieve the desried results than sometimes a spanking is brought into play. Now bring it into the adult world...you are speeding & are caught by the police. Do they just tell you "no no, that was dangerous"? Nope they give you a ticket & you pay it, then your insurance company finds out & they raise your rates which costs more money. Kids dont have money to take away as punishment so it wouldnt work on them, but as adults its the same as a spanking. Hell you know you were speeding, but why get punished for years by your insurance company as result of it? Screw off at work & its quite possible you will get a 1-3 day suspension...well not you since you are the boss but you get the point. Its more negative re-inforcement. Dont do it or we will suspend you & you will lose money. Hell I think I would much rather have a spanking then take away 2-3 days pay or get some huge traffic ticket. | ||
| Road_thing |
Yeah, gray and bare scalp... ...that's me, all right! rt | ||
| M2me |
I've got to agree with Pammy on this. I'm going to put on my psychologist hat for a minute. I think people who grow up with spankings generally turn out violent. What they learn is that to deal with conflict you reach out and hit somebody. Most wife beaters grew up with dads who beat mom. They learned that behavior. Pammy, what's your beef with Blake? Want to beat him? We all do! Just kidding Blake!  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
John, I will agree with most of what you say, but there is a huge difference between spanking a child & beating them. By spanking im meaning a swat or 2 on the butt with your hand & thats it. Nothing thats going to cause distress or anything, but enough to let them know who's boss & its the preceived threat that it could hurt more that will hinder future outbursts hopefully. Believe me when I say I know the difference. My ex wife could not control her temper & one day I caught her hitting my oldest daughter who was about 4-5 years old at the time...she truly was enraged over nothing & had no control over herself. I grabbed her in mid swing & pushed her against a wall & told her if I ever caught her raising a hand to either one of the kids again she would answer to me, not the police. That was the end of that, she never did hit or spank the kids again...negative re-inforcement works. | ||
| Pammy |
If you read my rather lengthy posts above, youwill see that I am not against negative re-inforcement. The cop didn't spank you...you instead suffer a real-life consequence for your actions. The same thing should happen to children. The quick way out for the parent is a spanking(that'll teach them younguns). The responsible way out is to be consistant with your limits and show them real consequences. Sometimes I wish I could spank my employees. Now there's a different topic. Which consequence would be worse and long remembered. Say you are a rowdy kid who has used my brand new trailer as a paintball target. I smack you and tell you that you are a moron. Or I spend 3 days as your drill sargent while you scrub my trailer and wax it. Then spend the next 2 days picking up cigarette butts and pulling weeds by hand off an acres worth of commercial property.} | ||
| Pammy |
If you raise your hand to me or any being(I don't spank my dogs either) I must say my first assessment of the situation would be..." he is trying to hurt me". Because that is exactly the result, when you strike someone with force, the intent is to inflict pain. Why not use a tazeror a cattle prod, similar to the way farm animals are kept in line. I brought my children into this world without any choice on their part. And I refuse to treat them with no more regard than some would treat a farm animal. My children are better than that and I treat them as such. This does not mean life without consequence. | ||
| Cj_xb |
I believe it was in Ohio where the women spanked her kid in the mall parking lot & it was caught on tape. My problem with that incident is that she actively looked around to see if anyone was watching before she hit that child !! WHY would you have to look around to see if someone was watching ?? If you don't want someone to see you do something, you KNOW it's wrong !! That wasn't just a spanking, she was PISSED off and she accomplished nothing, but to make that child hurt and feel unloved, that's my opinion. I'd much rather see a parent explain to a child WHY they are being spanked, assure her/him that it's not out of anger and actually hurts the parent to do it, and be consistent !! If you beat the crap out of a child, or spank them, because that child got on your last nerve, you are not using spanking as a teaching tool, your just pissed off !! And like Pammy said, not hurting/spanking children doesn't mean they don't suffer the consequences and learn !! Yeah washing and waxing that trailer, picking up cigerette butts for 3 days etc, would absolutely work better !! Spanking is only a quick fix, the child may stop what they are doing out of fear, but I don't think it teaches them anything that's lasting, and having them feel anger towards you for hurting them isn't helping the situation !! My boys turned out alright, and it wasn't because I was perfect, I just loved them to death !! God knows we didn't do everything right !! I'm not saying it's wrong to spank children, Lord knows I survived many, but I personally don't like it !! CJ | ||
| Kelly |
"The incident in the car, if it was the one I saw on the store camera, was a beating rooted in anger. " this could be the first time I've agreed with Court. | ||
| Peter |
Interesting thread here. Basically I have to agree with Pammy, although Easy's point about different things working for different kids also holds a lot of water. When I hit those teenage years, there was only one teacher in the school that I had any respect for. I failed all my classes bar his. In that one I got Distinctions. All the other teachers tried to reason with me. Parent's had to come to school and talk with a councellor or the headmaster. Various promises/bribes were extracted and tried, to get me to be a good boy. In this bloke's class (I still remember his name, and it starts with Mr!), if you were not there when it was supposed to begin, the door was closed. You would knock, and then wait. When he had finished showing everyone what was needed from them to start, he would open the door and ask for an explanation for your lateness. Then you'd sit and he'd explain to you what he'd told the others. No disruption to the class. If you wanted to push your luck with him, you got the cane. It was already illegal by then, but I KNOW he still had one in his office. I saw it more than once. My point? That guy had my respect, because he had the brains to deal with me the way I needed to be dealt with. I was not afraid of aggression, and turned my nose up at reason, so I needed an authority that was bigger and stronger to keep me in line. My sister, however, was an art student. Reason worked very well on her. If she had got smacked, whoever did it would have lost her respect. People are different. My son is very stubborn, but I think is afraid of violence. He knows that if I count to three, he will get a smack. That's the rule, but I think I've only ever reached "three", two times in his life. He doesn't need the smack to behave. I'm finding, as a parent, that the trick is finding out what pushes the kids buttons. What worked on me, isn't going to work on either of mine. | ||
| Blake |
What about dipping them in hot wax or making them rub grandma's feet or staking them out on top of a fire ant mound. Had a good friend growing up whose punishment was to have his head shaved. Very effective. What about the judicious exploitation of pressure points? | ||
| Blake |
How about feeding them ipecac or some jalepenos and a mild laxative? | ||
| Rocketman |
What have the past couple of generations taught the kids? Violence on the big screen, little screen, and video game. A rock 'n' roll star friend wrote this line.... 'switch off your TV switch on your mind' some 20 years ago. In a world full of TV dinners, never was it more appropriate. A great start in life is for the family to sit around a table at meal times, and keep up the habit always, without the presence of a TV set nearby. A simple function teaching family values, seemingly lost to a modern generation. The key to a good life is in teaching. The arts, history, and of course great music, is what will always shape our futures. War is the stumbling block of every generation. Taught at an early age and usually inspired (and masqueraded) by wise quotes about freedom, but is in fact always the product of a few greedy men. Greed exists in the education system too. Some in teaching are in it for themselves more than they are the kids. It pizzes me off when I hear off local authorities funding three managers into a special force to deal with under performing schools, when the first thing these managers do with their several hundred thousand pound budget is buy three brand new company cars. Merc's fer chrisakes. Those bastardios want running out of the education system immediately! In my town there are at least 5 McDonald's. The latest one arrived about 18 months ago, on the back of about 5 trucks. Plumbed in, up and running within a week, just in time for the new 20 million pound Endeavour School they've opened right across the road. I kid you not. Is my local authority charging McDonalds big rates to sit on that site? You can bet on it. Teach your kids 'money isn't everything'. Rocket | ||
| Pammy |
Exactly Blake...Jalepenos don't leave a mark. I remember my Mom putting soap in my mouth once for telling my brother that I hated him. Did it make me stop hating my brother? No way...it made me hate him more. Then I plotted on him and relished in every moment HE got in trouble. Is that the goal my beloved Mother was after? You can believe is most certainly was not. Do you think it was the words that offended her most? No, she did not want me to have feelings of hatred for my brother. She did nothing to bring us closer to that goal...only stopped the words... I have never had one negative thought against my Mother because she was the most selfless, caring, sympathetic, soul put on the very face of this earth and I would give many years of my own life to have her with me today...did she spank those feelings into me? You better know, by God, she did not. She showed me unconditional love and ultimate respect even when I wasn't so respectful. She set example in my life of supreme tolerance and a true goodness that would be impossible to measure. I can never live up to her image but I learned so much from her and I strive to give my children the same respect that was shown to me. I show my children strength and independence. I let them know that though wishes may not come true. Dreams, if persued with heart and soul, do. And anything is possible if the desire and the goal are very clear in your mind and heart. Life has too many rules...I stick to the basics. But my resolve doesn't waver and my mind doesn't change. I don't bribe and I don't reward bad behavior. I live for my kids without losing myself. That may not make sense to many. I don't do anything that I wouldn't want my kids to do. That includes putting my hands,in anger, on another living being. When my daughter has spoken to me harshly in anger or frustration or whatever else may be going through her frazzled teenaged mind, I sometimes willl grab her and hold her tight and ask her if she really does hate me. She will stop her tyrade and look at me and say NO of course she doesn't(duh) and tells me she is mad and the reason why and maybe it doesn't involve me. Point is...she realizes what is happening and the behavior that is making me unhappy stops(that IS the goal, right?) and maybe she will think(because she will THINK) twice before she does it again. Now if the same situation happened and I smacked her(on any part of the body) would the result be the same? I think not....the words would stop right then(although with my daughter, I think things would escalate from there) but I would not have done my job. What is my job? To guide and teach my children all aspects of life. I don't see my job as a period of tolerating them til they are out of my house. Am I delusional? Maybe, but not where my kids are concerned. Do I think they are perfect?(part of me does)No. But I do hope they are perfectly armed to handle life and all that comes from it. You know...I am going to tell you this last story and then I am going to let it go...really... I don't remember all the details of this particular situation. But my daughter wanted to do something and I said no. She whined and she pleaded and pitched a tantrum and the answer was still no. I ignored her more the louder she got until she finally became silent. She retreated to her (nasty) room and all was quiet in the household. I thought she might be pouting or having her own private, angry, time or some such... Well about an hour passed and out she comes, notebook in hand. She brings it to me and shows me the book with an oral presentation to accompany the plan she has outlined in this notebook. She has given it much thought and realizes that I must not understand the ramification and or reward of this thing she so desperately wants to do. She was calm. She was very clear and her explaination was precise and covered a lot of detail, let me tell you. I was so proud of her and of course I gave in. How could I not. She was applying the lessons in life she had learned in my household. From then on she brings a presentation(oral or written) before she even asks for something. Cut the tantrums to almost zero(that IS the goal, right?)Do you think I could have spanked that into her? Doubt it very seriously. I apologize once again for taking up so much space (and time for those who would actually read my crap) and will try to refrain from doing it again. As you can tell, My tolerance for violence, especially against children(and animals) is VERY low....I would be the "goody two shoes" on the phone with the cops if I witnessed a spanking like Dyna talked about above. As a matter of fact, you would have seen me in the video ,as well. I would have been the big gal(with burlap underthings) restraining the woman until the cops would arrive. (Message edited by pammy on September 09, 2004) | ||
| Pammy |
Oh yeah, I just remembered...My Grandma would give you a BIG spoonful of castor oil if you were "too sick" to do your chores. We never knew how she could tell you were faking it. | ||
| Cj_xb |
When my daughter has spoken to me harshly in anger or frustration or whatever else may be going through her frazzled teenaged mind, I sometimes willl grab her and hold her tight and ask her if she really does hate me. I never had girls so don't know what works with them, but I'll admit as a mother of boys I used tears, and that worked too !! When it got to a bad point, I'd cry and my son would get frustrated at me, but would always say "ok, ok mom I'll try harder, just PLEASE stop crying" !! Worked like a charm, although it probably wasn't the right way !! I agree different things work for different kids, and parents as long as you love em, I don't think you can go wrong !! CJ | ||
| Bomber |
very engaging thread -- gotta admit that I'm pretty much with Pammy and the others here that do no advocate corporal punishment -- the vast majority of time I was on the receiving end, I didn't do whatever it was I was being punished for (but things even out, I got awy with SOOOO much!) -- I spent one, count em, one dinner sitting in a locked car as my folks enjoyed a dinner in a nice restatraunt -- I don't remember what exactly I did, but I never did anything to get THAT punishment again! sign in an eatery in Door Country Wisconsin "This is not a kindergarten -- please control your children or you will be asked to leave." I've seen this enforced by the owner, and I make it a point to eat there when I'm in the area I also, like Pammy, don't beat animals -- of course, growing up in a hosue with Boxers will help you understand how hittin em won't work (they will think you're playing until it hurts, then they'll thiunk you're stupid unitl you get bigger, and they'll let you know that you've crossed the line) my only child (a girl -- 19 years) is well behaved, respectful of others, honest, forthright, and an all round good person -- last time she was popped was a light swat that she didn't notice through diapers . . . . she understands, and, like most folks, enjoys/desires the approval and company of others, and behaves accordingly as CJ sez, people arrive on the planet hardwired to a great degree, and different things work on different people, but I've seen way too much violence beggetting violence to think that will change anytime soon . . . . . | ||
| Thunderbox |
"Spare the rod and spoil the child". There is absolutely nothing wrong with corporal punishment if used properly. Beating a child or anyone else is stepping way over the line. I was spanked when I was a child and I spanked my daughter when it was required. She has grown to be a fantastic person who respects others and and thier property. She does not have any children yet but I am sure if you asked she would support corporal punishment with her children when required. Say what you will but those who have advocated not using any kind of force have to take responsibility for the ill behaviour in the kids today. If you think our society has better behaved kids than say 25 years ago you must have your head up your behind because nothing is further from the truth. This is the direct result of too many psycologists who think they know everything there is to know about child rearing. If you take a subjective look at nature you will see that when the offspring don't tow the line the parent or parents apply some form of physical force to correct the actions of the offenders. They rarely hurt the offender but they learn hard and fast which way the line is towed. Those who go overboard and beat their children should have the book thrown at them as far as I am concerned. No excuse for a beating. Some kids don't need a spanking. I did and my parents realized that. I have never thought I was being maltreated in any way shape or form. | ||
| Rick_a |
How times have changed. My parents were very old-school. My wife is much softer than I. I am easy on her son because he's, well, her son and I'd like to keep her my wife. He pushes me though...forget it! | ||
| Pammy |
"If you take a subjective look at nature you will see that when the offspring don't tow the line the parent or parents apply some form of physical force to correct the actions of the offenders. They rarely hurt the offender but they learn hard and fast which way the line is towed." May I re-iterate, that I don't regard my children to be animals AT ALL! My kids are reasoning and free thinking HUMAN BEINGS...believe me, there is a difference. When you spank a child...is the goal to cause pain? The deterrent to the inappropriate behavior is the idea that one will be spanked (and that will hurt, smart, sting, whatever adjective you may choose).If so, hurt = pain in my book. If you offend me in any way and I slap you, would you slap me back? If so, why? I would simply be trying to 'teach' you to curb your offensive behavior. Did your spankings cause you to 'tow the line' perfectly at all times? Or just in front of the ones who would cause you to be spanked. I said I would let this go and I will. I just can't believe a rational person reasons without doubt that there is a difference between 'spanking' and mistreating....Is that a point that is relative? | ||
| Thunderbox |
The reason for spanking is not primarily to cause pain. It is a consequence of behaviour. You may think children reason as adults and that is just your opinion. I don't believe a 5 year old reasons as we do or they wouldn't be starting a fire in the basement if you see what I mean. As with every discussion some people take the extreem point of view. You make it sound like every time a child steps the slightest bit out of line WHACK WHACK WHACK. Not so I don't advocate that type of punishment. The comparison to the world of nature was not meant to call any child an animal but like it or not we are after all really animals if you look at the definition. I see putting soap in your mouth was not an enjoyable thing. It wouldn't make you like your brother. Taking away your TV watching time would be a better solution? Somehow I doubt that you would like him better then. We all should know as reasoning adults that the child doesn't hate his brother but is angry because of their brothers behaviour towards them or something the other sibling has done. As far as slapping me, yes I would slap you back because you are not reponsible for my behaviour I am. In the case of a child you are responsible for their behaviour and in some jurisdictions you may be held accountable for any and all damage they cause. Did the spankings cause me to tow the line all the time????? No but in defence of that I can say that I don't need spankings anymore. I doubt if your methods work any better. I know my kid was not perfect, I know I was far from perfect. My parents soon learnt that I was not the reasoning type and needed some real consequence if I was to behave. I got that when needed, not often but not a single spanking do I remember as being a mind bending incident. Where do we stop with the allowable punishment thing. Next thing we know the police are at your door because your child has charged you with illegal confinement because you grounded them for good reason. Or you stole their nintendo. Or you talked to them in a harsh tone of voice. Or heaven forbid held them while you put soap in their mouth. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Here is some information about this subject that makes a lot of sense. Argument #2: Physical punishment establishes the moral righteousness of hitting other persons who do something which is regarded as wrong. Counterpoint: The "spanking teaches hitting" belief has gained in popularity over the past decade, but is not supported by objective evidence. A distinction must be made between abusive hitting and nonabusive spanking. A child's ability to discriminate hitting from disciplinary spanking depends largely upon the parents' attitude with spanking and the parents' procedure for spanking. There is no evidence in the medical literature that a mild spank to the buttocks of a disobedient child by a loving parent teaches the child aggressive behavior. | ||
| Cj_xb |
As far as slapping me, yes I would slap you back Slapping is sooooo wrong, no one should EVER suffer being slapped in the face, bad, bad, bad !! CJ | ||
| Pammy |
"The reason for spanking is not primarily to cause pain. It is a consequence of behaviour." "As far as slapping me, yes I would slap you back because you are not reponsible for my behaviour I am." So getting spanked/slapped is not a true, real life consequence of poor behavior? But that is what you would have your child believe. I am a grown up, thinking and reasoning ADULT, and I am still confused. If YOUR child is presenting me with bad behavior, should I spank him/her? |
