| Author | Message | ||
     Whodom |
Speaking of "classic oil pump drive gear failure", is there a consensus here on this issue? Is it limited to any specific Buell models (year or type), or can it happen to any Buell? What's the lowest mileage at which this failure has occurred? Is it more likely to happen to Buells ridden in colder climates where the oil is going to be more viscous for longer? | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Supposedly it wasnt supposed to happen to bikes newer than 00's. Yet mines an 01 & it looks pretty apparent that this last blowup is indeed oil pump related. | ||
| Outrider |
"Classic" may have been a poor choice of words on my part. I don't recall any specific pattern concerning to whom or what exact models (other than X1's and a few M2's) it happens to especially in reference to riding habits, climates, etc. All I know is some fail with relatively disastrous results and that the part can and should be inspected on a regular basis. I believe Reep cited 10.0K miles based on his experience. Made an appointment at Hal's to have mine replaced at 10.0K miles and upon inspection, they told me mine was fine and they had special ordered the parts for me. That saved me a bunch of bucks I had already willingly contracted to pay. Was further instructed to monitor the oil light. If it goes on and you have oil, chances are you lost the pump. Don't ride it, tow it to a dealer. Incidentally, the Tech at Hal's was reported to be a former Buell line manager that was heavily involved in the engine department. Quite a credible individual, good presentation skills and I am more than confident he would have loved to do the work if I had needed it. Blake also had a good suggestion for monitoring the engine internals and that was to send your oil off for analysis periodically. Never got around to that but will someday. In my case, I don't beat the bike so the likelihood of my experiencing any failure is low. I just like to replace failure prone parts with the upgraded versions when available as cheap insurance. In essence, I hate the thought of getting stranded in the middle of nowhere and facing an engine rebuild. | ||
| Mikej |
Bill, What was/were the recommended parts, if you have the list handy? Was it basically the Zippers product, or a H-D one? While I don't really beat my bikes either, I do occasionally hit the rev limiter. Thanks. | ||
| Bomber |
I checked my gear aat 20k+, and no abnormal wear patterns wear evidenced . . . . in reading of the failures, I've been able to determine no commonality in them -- that,, of course, doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I've not been able to see it | ||
| Whodom |
Outrider- you mean check it at least every 10k miles or it has failed in as little as 10k miles? | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
First time home in 23 months. Looks good dont it  Not quite the shape I gave it to them in. Like to know where all my parts are. Better have an answer tomorrow. Box O parts...well some folks have always considered the tube framers "kit bikes" Notice the missing gear & all the pretty little teeth next to it. 2 of the pushrods are still usable. Missing tooth Another cam with more teeth missing | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
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| Reepicheep |
Geesh Dyna, was this all just another stripped oil pump drive gear? Thats what it looks like to me... like that thing just stripped out, and the teeth proceeded to rip up the cams. I can see some pretty heavy wear on some of the teeth even from here... That totally sucks... it's an easy thing to inspect for if you know to inspect for it. A pain in the ••• to remove and replace, but much easier then dealing with a trashed engine. All the other history aside, I am sorry for you. That sucks to look at.  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
2 years of paying for this pile of broken parts...and some folks wonder why I am a bit disgruntled??? BTW...the oil light never came on during any of this. So this Was further instructed to monitor the oil light. If it goes on and you have oil, chances are you lost the pump. Don't ride it, tow it to a dealer. wouldnt have made any difference. Maybe particles get into the switch & keep the contacts closed..or open..however it works..& as a result the light never comes on? No extra noise, no light, nothing. Just riding along & then nothing. Will play around a little bit this weekend with it. Going to drop the pump & see if its hung up. Appears to be tho, I cant turn the gear by hand right now. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Given the nature of the positive displacement oil pump on our bikes, if we have lost the oil pump, we are already well and truly screwed, and no amount of quick shutdown and towing will prevent serious cam / pump damage. Wonder how the pushrods got bent? | ||
| M1combat |
The cams skipped a few gears and let the piston bash the valves? | ||
| Outrider |
Dyna...Thanks for the words of advice about the oil light. Wonder if that is what happened to Tom Dullorb's bike enroute to Newfoundland this year. Will be an interesting autopsy, eh? Looks like I will be doing the pump and gear R&R with the Zipper's pump. Hopefully they will have or can direct me to a source that has a stronger drive gear. Incidentally, Zipper's pump has a screen on the intake to prevent shrapnel from locking it up. MikeJ, will advise when I get confirmation from Zipper's. The last run I had with this was a Zipper's pump and an S&S drive gear via DWD. FYI, Hal's (both Service Dept and Performance Shop) claims the Buell replacement drive gear is the best there is and the only thing they use in their race bikes. Considering they are constantly tearing down those engines, that wasn't much consolation so I continued to investigate. Additionally, considering Dyna's is a 2001 which supposedly had the newer better gear, I am not very confident in that choice. Furthermore, I do not want to have to replace the gear every 10.0K as a part of preventative maintenance. I am not a mechanic and that gets real expensive. Oh well, one good thing. Nobody tried to conceal the damage or evidence. Not to mention that is the best pic yet of the faux pas. Hmmm...Let's take inventory in my garage. A 2000 X1 with a potential oil pump drive gear problem and a 2003 FXDWG with a potential cam bearing problem. Man, I really know how to pick 'em, eh? | ||
| Outrider |
Question...I don't recall reading about the XB's having the oil pump drive gear problem. Did I miss something or are they exempt? If exempt, how did they do that and are parts interchangeable? Be polite. I already admitted I am mechanically declined. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Outrider, the oil drive gear is really easy to inspect. Just drop the oil pump and look up in there with a flashlight, dental mirror, digital camera, crawl on the floor, whatever. You can do it during your next oil change and only add 30 minutes to the job. Last we checked, zippers no longer made that replacement part. Based on somebody elses research posted somewhere around here, I don't think the problem is the gear, I think the problem is the alignment the pump (a result of the machining of the oil pump mating surface on the engine case). A better replacement part would be to keep the factory drive gear, but replace the gear captive on the end of the oil pump with a softer material. That way the gear on the pump would wear (which can be easily replaced) instead of wearing the drive gear (which requires both rocker boxes and the cam cover get pulled to replace). | ||
| Court |
>>>>2 years of paying for this pile of broken parts...and some folks wonder why I am a bit disgruntled??? And worse yet, hearing about it.  Thank your lucky stars you have a job that allows you to park before a keyboard daily and hit web posts back like the Chinese table tennis team. If were me, I'd have fixed it under the old quid pro quo gag order contract. Go get'em...I'm going riding. Court | ||
| Outrider |
Reep...thanks. I recall the alignment post now. Will look it up for future reference. Interesting analogy of which gear to modify for easy replacement. Both logical and humorous. Spock, Cpt Kirk and Scotty would be all impressed. LOL Oh well, until somebody makes a kit or something different, it looks I am just stuck with the traditional fix for preventative maintenance. Ahhh...the price I pay to have two wonderful steeds in my garage. Honestly love 'em both, just a tad concerned at times. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
XB9rski had the oilpump go which melted down his XB engine at somewhere around the 30K mark. He got a new engine and swingarm out of it under warrenty. | ||
| Outrider |
If were me, I'd have fixed it under the old quid pro quo gag order contract. I am speechless. Perhaps a good thing as there appears to be something more than meets the eye. | ||
| Outrider |
Court, Anon, Somebody... In all sincerity, regardless of anything that has transpired to date, how about a nice fix/prevention kit from the factory at a reasonable price. Heck, I would pay for it and the install in a heartbeat just for the peace of mind. Come to think of it, I already tried to and was talked out of it by a very reputable dealer. No implications of responsibility, etc. Just a simple performance upgrade for old guys that love their Buell and want to both keep and enjoy it. Obviously, by merit of the resale market, our bikes are worth more to us than to anyone else and something like this would be a very nice gesture. Thank you for your consideration regarding this matter. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Inspect the gear (you did). This requires a $1 gasket, a couple cable ties, and some teflon tape. 30 minute job. If it is worn, replace it (yours wasn't, don't). This will require a new pair of rocker box gasket kits, a cam cover gasket, an oil pump gasket, a couple magic rivits, exhaust header gaskets, and a new drive gear ($15 or something). It will take a long time, but the work is not that hard, just lots of taking stuff apart. All in all less then $100 worth of parts, probably a good solid 4 to 8 hours of labor, depending on how fast you work. Then go ride the bike for another 15,000 miles. It's not all bikes. Heck, it's probably not even most bikes. To find out if you have a worn gear, you are only looking at maybe 30 minutes labor and less then $5 worth of parts, it's not a big deal. I'm with Court... Ride the bike. Do simple checks and fixes that prevent bad things from happening. Ride the bike. Fix the stuff that breaks. Ride the bike. | ||
| Outrider |
Thanks Reep, you made that all clear before and I appreciate your concern and your expertise. I ride, I don't wrench. Adding gas, oil and air is the extent of my mechanical interest. So it looks like every time I go in for an oil change, I will pay the extra for an inspection and pray that they actually did it when I venture far from home. Really wish you hadn't ruined the placebo the dealer gave me with the oil light. LOL | ||
| Reepicheep |
No need to check it with every oil change. Check the thing one time between 8,000 and 15,000 miles on your bike. Whenever it is convenient, maybe during the winter. It'll drain the oil to check it, so do it with an oil change. Just check it once. If its badly worn, then you know you have an issue. Replace it every 15k miles. If you get to replace it a third time, count your blessings, that engine went a hell of a long way. If it's not worn on the first check (don't think yours was) sleep well, ride hard, have peace, and never check it again... Your bike is not a serial gear killer. | ||
| Whodom |
So Reep, what do you recommend? Check the gear every oil change, every 10k miles, other? I've got ~6300 on my "new" (to me) 2000 S3 and I'm wondering if it's OK to wait until 10k to check it for the first time. Next oil change is planned for 8k. | ||
| Tucsonxb9s |
It looks like Dyna got the new City X prototype motor for '06....see through heads!! Dang...what a mess. I definitely feel your pain. Good luck in what ever you do with it! | ||
| M2me |
I think people are making too big of a deal out of this oil pump issue. Yes, it does sometimes fail. I first heard about the failure on a Sportster in 1992. But the problem is pretty rare. Check it if you want but I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it. I have always suspected that there was something wrong with Dyna's motor from the day it left the factory. Correct me if I'm wrong Greg but here is what I remember of the story. Drop a valve and get it fixed. Drop another valve and get it fixed. Finally the whole motor goes south. I think somebody at the dealer or at the factory should have raised red flags about this motor. The thing wasn't right. No one should be having that many problems in the first 11,000 miles. It would be frustrating if it was something like a faulty oil pump that caused all the problems.  Oh well, get it fixed and back on the road!  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I am not sure how many miles were on Dyna's bike, but I don't think any of the other failures have happened before 15k miles on the engine. I would not start to worry until then, but it's such an easy check, it might be worth doing at 10k just for peace of mind. I think mine had like 13k when I checked. It was less then 50% gone. I don't know how far it can go before it fails. | ||
| Crusty |
40,000 miles on my 2000 M2, and my gear looks fine. 60,000 on my '98 S3T. No problems with the drive gear on it, either. My '79, '84 or '86 Sportsters had no oil pump gear problems, either. I think there may have been a run of bad gears. It seems that if you haven't had a problem by 20K, you probably won't have one. | ||
| M1combat |
"park before a keyboard daily and hit web posts back like the Chinese table tennis team. " Good one Court . | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Reep....that motor was opened up twice in the first 4600 miles. If the gear had been worn I sure as hell hope they would have noticed it. Only 11,000 on it when it grenaded like that. The cams skipped a few gears and let the piston bash the valves? Nope, the valves never hit the pistons..no sign of any damage at all. If were me, I'd have fixed it under the old quid pro quo gag order contract. And if my warranty had been upheld & not dismissed based on a slip on muffler..it would have been fixed. Real frickin easy to claim what you would have done when its not your bike nor your money. I have been pretty cool about this whole deal for quite awhile now, but seeing those gears & what was obviously shoddy workmanship as well as cheap parts gets my blood boiling. Would have been so easy for the dealership & Buell to step up to the plate & honor their end of the agreement in the same fashion that I have honored mine for the last 23 months by continuing to pay for this thing. I think somebody at the dealer or at the factory should have raised red flags about this motor. The thing wasn't right. No one should be having that many problems in the first 11,000 miles. The only red flags are in their computer system are next to my name because I was & am upset about this. |
