| Author | Message | ||
     Grndskpr |
What do you suppose would happen if they tried to air cool your R1? It'd rev to about 10K MAYBE... That question would be better directed to Team Obsolite, a team who runs vintage bikes that are more like museam bikes than race bikes, i thought the old Honda air cooled 6 cylinder 250's/350's ran higher RPM's than that, but they were pure race bikes, they were also air cooled, but i doubt they had much of a life span R | ||
| Socoken |
So, are you saying that Buell's can't make more power because air cooling is a limitation? Also, last I looked the Buell XB frames were pretty small, and very narrow. no, not at all. i was merely stating why IL4s need liquid cooling for more reasons than v-twins, and why IL4s need liquid cooling to reach full potential as racebikes. i never made any connections or comparisons to the XB. the XB is very narrow, and i never said otherwise. i merely stated that IL4s need to be very close together to be narrow enough, and that increases the demand for water cooling. "The Katana & Bandit run old GSXR engines, that were the s**t when they first came out. Do you think they weren't at the edge of piston speed then? Can you find a fully faired GSXR1100, maybe a few years back?" i never said all IL4s were water cooled, i never said all IL4s needed to be water cooled. i just gave a list of reasons why i thought modern hi-po fours used water cooling. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Let's not forget this race where a Buell placed SIXTH in Formula Xtreme race: Kosco Buell Rider Cracks Top-Ten in Season Points Despite Missing First Two Rounds BRAINERD, Minn. (June 26, 2004) - Kosco Buell/Innovative Motorcycle Research rider Michael Barnes had his best result of the season with a sixth-place finish aboard his Buell Firebolt at the Lockhart Phillips USA Formula Xtreme race during the AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship Series at Brainerd International Raceway. The strong showing moved him into ninth in points. | ||
| Mbsween |
Okay can't resist, I'd like to see the Buells finish on the podium just once in year 1. They're getting close, especially on favorable tracks. Lets not forget how long it took Yamaha to be competitive in MotoGP. Same for Suzuki. Kawasaki and Proton ..... who knows? Seems like a good percentage of the winning bike still comes from above the tank, I'm sure there are a hell of a lot of Yamaha fans who want to ask Biaggi how bad the YZR-M1 is now. In the meantime, they are doing extremely well for a 1st year effort. And they've got me watching formula extreme, which I really never cared about much. But talk about entertainment, I'm going to buy surround sound just to listen to the races. I love it when they show the pack going past the stationary camera, no missing the Buell there..... | ||
| José_quiñones |
This is an oldie but a goodie, and still relevant, from gazette9.com
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| Crusty |
Now, let's hear all the "Knowledgeable Geniuses" without engineering degrees tell us why Erik is wrong and how they know the right way an engine should be designed. | ||
| Outrider |
Crusty...If it weren't for dissent and the continual search for a better way, where will the future geniuses come from? Just wondering, not criticizing your comment. | ||
| M1combat |
Well Crusty... I'll only say that there is no "right way" to design an engine. You look at what you need out of it, and choose the design components that will best suit the needs and the available money. I think I prefer an air cooled twin on the street. I have to say I think I would like OHC's as well, but I'm pretty sure I can live w/o them just fine. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Again, the emissions tests are a true measure of what everyday life is like, the way the governments have set them up, so they measure start-up and all these kind of things...to get the vaporization of fuel to get clean burn, Lets work on this part shall we? Has anyone done emission tests on a Buell after installing the race ecm? The XB12's dont seem to be as needy as the XB9's or the tube framed bikes were. Those bikes just about required the race ecm in order to operate the way they should have. Are the bikes purposely lean from the factory to pass emission tests? Where as the perceived competitions bikes dont require "race ecms" to function properly. Maybe the stock the ecm is just a bandaid & nothing more? Anyone have the proper setup to test emissions before & after? And no gut feelings...hows about actual proof in the form of printouts. | ||
| Court |
>>>Anyone have the proper setup to test emissions before & after? And no gut feelings...hows about actual proof in the form of printouts. As I seek excitement in my life....I am torn....900 numbers or emissions test......900 numbers or emissions test. Gads...how can I decide! Greg, I KNOW you have a life. Now ACT LIKE IT before I fine you!  | ||
| José_quiñones |
It depends what you want that engine to do. Erik answered that question himself when he said: "Now, maybe under optimum situations, you design an engine for racing, to work at a certain temperature, to get the peak efficiency out of it, yeah...but for all-around-use engines? Air-cooleds are wonderful." For a street engine I have no argument. But as he said himself, if you are going to go racing, well, you better design a race engine. What they have tried to do to date is race a heavily tweaked street bike engine against purpose built race engines, a very tall order. If they want to race oranges, build an orange. The VR1000, for all its faults, was an orange. edited by josé_quiñones on July 12, 2004 | ||
| José_quiñones |
Greg, I don't think any bike, XB, R1, whatever, with an aftermarket ECM, Powercommander, etc would pass the tests. Granted, twins (air or watercooled, check out some stock Aprilia dyno charts to see the classic midrange dip) do suffer more from the stock tuning needed to meet the EPA requirements, but they are all affected by it to a certain degree. The valve in the muffler of the 12s does help this out a lot. But to be in total control of the F.I. you have to go aftermarket. But none of these aftermarket parts would pass emmisions testing. When the government finally decides to not allow "off road use" parts to be sold anymore then we'll talk. edited by josé_quiñones on July 12, 2004 | ||
| M2me |
I finished in 6th place (12 total teams) in my fantasy baseball league's first season! This is the first time I have ever played fantasy baseball. I feel that I was competitive. I was only 13 points out of 5th place (I finished the first season with 5,531 points). No, I didn't win but I'm not a loser. For a long time I was stuck in 11th place before I started making some moves. I gave them a run for their money. By now you're probably asking yourself, "What does anything of this have to do with Buells and Formula Xtreme?" Well, just this: Buells are competitive in Formula Xtreme! Are they in 1st place? No, but they are competitive! Hopefully, through hard work they could end up on the podium someday. The second season starts July 15 after the All Star break. We'll see what I can do!  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
I don't think any bike, XB, R1, whatever, with an aftermarket ECM, Powercommander, etc would pass the tests. Jose, I agree completely with that. My point is that sure the bike beats the emissions regulations, but at what cost? We know they run lean without the race ecm, we know everyone & their brother with an XB9 or a tube framer has the race ecm & that fattens the mixture up so the bike runs the way it was actually designed to run. Its sorta like those dry weights the manufacturers love to boast about..who cares? I cant run the bike dry so give me the real world figures. Same with the ecms, everyone who can afford it is going to swap anyways to get the performance that was intended so the low emission deal is a joke being played on the EPA. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I agree, unfortunately that's the way the rules are written right now and they way manufacturers, Buell included, play the game: they sell you the bike tuned to the way that makes the EPA happy and then they will gladly sell you the "off road use" accesories that let it run the way it really wants to. Like I said earlier, at some point some future government will decide to no longer allow "off road use" equipment to be sold to people without racing licenses (ie us regular customers for street use). At that point, watercooling, fuel injection, unremovable air filters/mufflers/ecms etc will be rule. | ||
| Spike |
Dyna, I'd agree with the FI tubers needing the race ECM to run properly, but the XBs? As long as they're set up properly the stock XBs run flawlessly. Sure, they could benefit from a little extra fuel, but so could every other stock motorcycle I've ever seen. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Here's the official Buell Press Release from Laguna, without comment: CICCOTTO SCORES TOP TEN FINISH AT LAGUNA SECA Barnes Crashes Out after First Lap Mishap in Corkscrew MONTEREY, Calif. (July 10, 2004) - Hal’s Performance Advantage rider Michael Ciccotto finished 10th aboard his Buell Firebolt in the AMA Lockhart Phillips USA Formula Xtreme race held at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca. Unfortunately Kosco Buell/Innovative Motorcycle Research rider Michael Barnes crashed out on the first lap. The race was later interrupted by a red flag for track inspection and clean up after Jake Zemke’s Honda started trailing smoke. Ciccotto qualified ninth for the 17-lap race and finished 10th after running as high as eighth position early in the race. Barnes qualified 10th but failed to score any points after he crashed in the corkscrew on the first lap. He was unharmed in the incident. The race was won by American Honda factory rider Ben Bostrom, with Honda riders Miguel Duhamel and Zemke benefiting from the red flag to make repairs to their bikes and finish on the podium. “The combined AMA and World Superbike event at Laguna Seca is always a high-profile race, and it was exciting to see our Buell dealer teams out there turning lap times that would have earned them a qualifying spot on the World Superbike grid,” said Erik Buell, chairman and chief technical officer at Buell Motorcycle Company. AMA Formula Xtreme is a class open to highly-modified motorcycles with 600cc four-cylinder engines or larger-displacement V-Twin engines. The next stop on the AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship schedule is July 23-25 at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course near Lexington, Ohio. | ||
| Benm2 |
Hmmmm..... More than one way to skin a cat? Anyway, the comments are with specific regards to air cooling, not two valve heads or pushrods. The car manufacturers have gotten the startup emissions under control by putting the cats closer & closer to the exhaust valves, with some being right in the exhaust manifold. Again, cats aren't all bad. They can clean up the exhaust in place of lean stock jetting or FI settings, and they are easily removed for "racing purposes". The automotive aftermarket is FULL of products that allow emissions tests to STILL be passed, including remapped ECM's, cams, intakes, and exhausts. The standard modifications done by alot of sportbike riders is some sort of louder exhaust, and maybe a power commander. These are no different than the mods done to your neighbor's son's Honda civic, but he can purchase parts that don't say "for offroad use only". Performance doesn't have to be dirty, or environmentally unconscious. Too bad about the spec tire rule at Laguna. It would have been great to see Ben Bostrum put it to them for old times sake. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I ain't no expert, but I think a hard ridden well tuned 1200cc aircooled pushrod twin will pull at least 40mpg, maybe 45mpg, while a hard ridden well tuned 600cc inline four will be pulling 30mpg. Would not this translate into proportionally better emissions for the twin? I also know the Buells are basically able to meet the California and Euro emissions tests without a cat converter, but can't think of any water cooled larger displacement bikes that will. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Reep, when I would do track days on the X1 my mileage would drop to the 33-35 range. Around town I would usually average 45 or so. With the R1 around town I average about 41 & if I push it real hard it drops down to 31-32. | ||
| M1combat |
When I push my XB I get around 40-45, and that's running mostly third and fourth gear. When I'm cruising along in fifth I get about 50 or so. | ||
| Art_vandelay |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: Now, let's hear all the "Knowledgeable Geniuses" without engineering degrees tell us why Erik is wrong and how they know the right way an engine should be designed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have an engineering degree so don't know if my comment counts, but... EB forgot to include in his delta T equation specific heat. The specific heat of water is greater than that of air, so even though it's temperature difference might not as great it's ability to take away heat from the engine is much great than that of air. Stick you right hand in 200 degree water, stick your left hand in 350 degree oven. Which one is gonna hurt more? Why? Specific heat. | ||
| M1combat |
But what about 350 degree air moving at 70 mph? Also, if we can get "enough" cooling from air it's better because it allows a system that weighs less. edited by M1combat on July 13, 2004 | ||
| Socoken |
ive been in 150 degree air moving at 70mph, does that count? | ||
| Art_vandelay |
But what about 350 degree air moving at 70 mph? Ok... Now you are cooking. You got yourself a convection oven. You still haven't changed any of the thermodynamics. Your meat is still gonna get cooked quicker in the water. Hell let the air blow by at Dyna speeds. Doesn't matter nothing has changed in the equation. Also, if we can get "enough" cooling from air it's better because it allows a system that weighs less. Well ok. Then why does my X1 (aircooled) weigh as much as a ZX-9(watercooled)? Also 'enough' is never good enough on the track. I love my X1, but I have to add octane boost at every track day. More power? No. So I don't get detonation, because the aircooling isn't doing its job. | ||
| Art_vandelay |
Socoken you get yourself a gold star for that.  | ||
| M1combat |
"Ok... Now you are cooking. You got yourself a convection oven. You still haven't changed any of the thermodynamics." Yeah, I'm not an engineer but I did grow up in Alaska. I've traveled at 70 mph at 30 degrees below and stuck my hand out the window... I assure you, it gets a LOT colder a LOT faster than just standing outside at thirty below. Have you ever heard of wind chill? Have you ever stood outside in a breeze? | ||
| M1combat |
"Then why does my X1 (aircooled) weigh as much as a ZX-9(watercooled)? " Different materials? | ||
| Spike |
Then why does my X1 (aircooled) weigh as much as a ZX-9(watercooled)? Because they're completely different animals, silly. Here's a better comparison, cut all the fins off of your X1's cylinders and heads and weigh the fins. Then compare that to the weight of the ZX-9's radiator, radiator mounts, fluid, cooling fan, cooling fan wiring, shrouds, water pump, hoses, clamps, and thermostat. Then you will have an accurate comparison of the weight of water cooling versus air cooling. Better still- while you have the fins off of your X1, bolt on a radiator, radiator mounts, fluid, cooling fan, cooling fan wiring, shrouds, water pump, hoses, clamps, and thermostat. Then compare the weight to what your X1 previously weighed. I'll agree, water cooling has some advantages, but weight isn't one of them. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Just an FYI cause I DO think its relevent. The RC166 honda 250cc Six made 60bhp at 18000 note that is eigthteen thousand RPM. Reved to like 22000 but I am not positive on that figure. Look at the bore and stroke and the fact it had a 7 speed trans.  The Buells are running against bikes that have a 6th gear. That sixth gear makes a a difference. Also it has been said that the Buells are making 140hp...what are the honda's making? I remember in the first race at Dayton DuHamel said they were guessing the Honda's were making 135hp. Think Honda has sat back and not gone for more power? No I don't think the Buells are making the same power as the IL4's. They are heavier, have less power and are still placing consistently in the top 10? They are doing DAMN good. And has been pointed out, the real "Race" IMHO is between the privateer teams. Doug Chandler and some of the other privateers are in the same boat as Barnes and Ciccotto. Comparing their finishes to the Factory teams is not at all a fair comparison. The Buells missed the first two races due to development, yet Honda had 6 motors and 3 bikes ready for Daytona. That is where the money comes in. Not to mention the fact that any of the Honda's could run down to the local speed shop and find atleast some aftermarket race goodies to bolt on that would add more performance, not something the Buells could do. |
