| Author | Message | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Bob_thompson |
Just saw this on speed channel and only a tenth place finish in Formula extreme but Congradulations to Ciccotti (spelling) for this fine finish on a Buell at Laguna Seca. Can anybody tell me about this class and why a Buell can be competitive here and not so much in other classes? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Smoke |
10th isnt real competitive against 600's and 749's. etc. i'm glad they are there racing though. need more horses somehow tim | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
Tenth is very competitive... You have to remember that these aren't superstock 600's. They are HIGHLY modified 600's. The FX Buells run 1350cc's and pushrods. You can't expect a 600cc pushrod V-Twin to compete with a 600cc IL4. Also, tenth is their worst position thus far as I recall. Keep in mind too that they aren't "factory" teams. They do get limited amounts of support from Buell, but they aren't factory backed like Duhamel and Zemke are. More horses will come. This is their first year (and they missed the first two races). I'm sure they will do well next year. With the way Buells are selling compared to previous years I think that Buell is JUST starting to make their mark on motorsport. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
You have to remember that these aren't superstock 600's. They are HIGHLY modified 600's. The FX Buells run 1350cc's and pushrods. You can't expect a 600cc pushrod V-Twin to compete with a 600cc IL4. So the 600's are highly modified, what does have to do with the Buells? They too are highly modified. And why cant you expect a 600cc pushrod v-twin to compete? Folks seem to think the valve train isnt an issue. Ducati has 749cc V-twins which are competitive..granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what? The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better? I think its bs when excuses are made, I think they could be competitive, or at least more so than they currently are. Just need to figure out exactly what the limiting factors are. If its rpm related, then why not come out with a new motor that has a different top end on it...hell OHC's have been around for a long time now & it wouldnt hurt the "mystique" of the brand to go that direction. If its not valvetrain than what? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
With the way Buells are selling compared to previous years I think that Buell is JUST starting to make their mark on motorsport. Have you actually researched that? Buell sales have been pretty consistent for the last few years, neither up nor down...although for 2004 they are actually down a bit compared to previous years. We will leave the Blast out of this but if wanted or needed they can be included. Now these are shipments of units to dealers, not actual numbers of bikes sold. 2004 Qtr 1- 2186 bikes 2003 Qtr 1- 2356 bikes Qtr 2- 1804 bikes Qtr 3- 2393 bikes Qtr 4- 2231 bikes 2002 Qtr 1- 429 bikes...remember the XB wasnt available during this time frame & the dealers had nothing but leftover tube frames to sell. Qtr 2- 2006 bikes Qtr 3- 1933 bikes Qtr 4- 2519 bikes As you can plainly see the numbers dont support your claim of bike sales being up. They are in a deadheat for the most part with previous years. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rocketsprink |
Squid, for someone that has a Buell that you don't ride, you sure post a lot. Plus, why do you have to ride everyones a**? I don't know what your experiences are, but maybe YOU should race, or are ya a " bench racer ". The valve train has a lot to do with it. Put a IRL or Cart or Nascar up against a Formula 1 car with a little 3 liter motor a I WILL BET THE FARM the F-1 car will KILL them all! It has pneumatic (sic) valve train able to reach 19,000 rpm! Still has 800 horsepower, but that ability to rev that high is what makes them the most advanced cars in the world. Don't tell me that another car that redlines at 10,000rpm has a chance. Same with the Buells. I will agree the need a motor that can rev higher, but the don't have the money and resources that the factory teams do. Plus they don't have the years of experience. Their time will come. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| 99x1 |
"If its not valvetrain than what?" Someone (?) once told me it is the piston speed - the long stroke causes the piston speed to be near the limit. At high RPM (6000 rpm?) the Sportster piston speed is almost at the limit for the engine to last (4500 fps?). There is an article at V-Twins. ("This longer stroke, however, increases piston speed per engine cycle, causes greater side-loads on the cylinder walls and decreases maximum rpm's.)" I think to match the 600's high RPM HP with a long stroke, pushrod engine the powerband would end up kinda narrow? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
Rocket..I own 3 bikes so even tho the Buell is broke I still manage to get around. And race? Where does that have any validity on ones opinion or thoughts? I have competed in quite a few track days? Hows about you? You know for someone who lives in the area & supposedly rides a Buell you dont get to many events or rides do you? Maybe you would like to tell the Ukes group what a complete @ss I am..oh wait, we just all rode to Greenbay & had a great time together without you. BTW, HP is HP, all depends on what rpms the power comes in at & if you have the proper gearing to pull it. Maybe you had better tell Aaron that since his ancient Buell is pushrod operated that he obviously cant go as fast or faster than a Busa because he cant run to 12,000 rpms. Christ, I post something which actually praises the Buells & I say I think they could be competitive & yet still someone has to cry. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
"granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what? " ??? Nimrod, you have to understand that's an ignorant statement... There's more than one way to skin a cat. Why should everyone use the same one just because ONE of it's stats makes it look like it's achieving more with less? How about the fact IL4's have four pistons and FOUR TIMES as many valves? Oh, yeah... and they're water cooled. You ARE a squid my friend. Keep your eyes glued to the stats page and maybe next year you'll get 50 more RPM's and three more horse power. Maybe you'll hit 172.2? "The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better?" Torque multiplication... Get a clue. You obviously watch too much NASCAR Dyna. Try Speed GT Championship, European GT racing, V8 Supercars, ALMS, DTM, etc. Maybe then you'll begin to understand racing. There aren't any excuses being made Dyna. You just don't get it. Just because you choose to follow the beat of the same drum that everyone else and their friggin brother follows doesn't mean it's the only way. Learn a little bit about American racing history or just racing history in general and look at all the classes throughout that have multiple engine formats. Assclown. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bads1 |
You guys crack me up!!!This topic has been talked about over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over,mam I got to stop I'm getting to sound like a broken record.M1 and Rocketsprink,the bikes are competitive.Nothing against Buells riders there awesome and there proving it but Team HONDA,Suzuki are in this and have been in this for reason to win and thats the final word there factory and they have the best riders that get payed to win. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Xblue9r |
official definition of nimrod = mighty hunter | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
M1..thanks for the derogatory comments. Notice I didnt call anyone names. I guess the first thing you do when you cant win is insults. Whatever. And torque multiplication is why they arent finishing better? Get real. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
"M1 and Rocketsprink,the bikes are competitive." That's what I was saying... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
"thanks for the derogatory comments" No problem... Uhh, go figure out what torque multiplication IS and yes, that's why they aren't fighting for fourth or better. As far as not calling me names I could care less, you're comments were less than productive and against Buell. Beyond that, they were made from an obviously uninformed point of view. "Ducati has 749cc V-twins which are competitive..granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what?" So what??? Statements like that expose your ignorance. If you don't like Buell's then walk away or keep your posts to your stated reason for staying. I can accept that Buell's aren't the be all end all of race bikes but I can't accept people like you who will rip on them every chance they get. Grow up. Where did the 749's place anyway? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
Where was there any rip on Buells? You love to read 5hit into things. Have a nice night jagoff. Happy? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
Taken from your first post - "The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better?" And your third - "Christ, I post something which actually praises the Buells & I say I think they could be competitive & yet still someone has to cry." Where exactly were you praising Buells?? Line it up and twist Dyna... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better In case you havent figured it out, thats a question which nobody has answered. If you know so frickin much why dont you go work Hals race team? Im sure they could use your years of expertise. Nothing slanderous at all, just a question. And praise...right here I think its bs when excuses are made, I think they could be competitive, or at least more so than they currently are. Just need to figure out exactly what the limiting factors are. Notice I said they could be more competitive than they currently are. Never said they suck, couldnt race etc. Dont bother responding, im done with your argumentative closed mind. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
"Dont bother responding, im done with your argumentative closed mind. " Oh yeah, that'll win... I don't have a closed mind Dyna... You continuously point out the fact that Buells aren't the cats meow. I can handle that. I agree with you (when it comes to the engine). The problem is that you do it in a derogatory fashion and NEVER point out their strengths. You're very quick to point out the strengths of your R1 though... Why is that? Is it because you've made a lot of friends around here and just want to stick around fer them? Riiight... It's because you enjoy bashing Buells because of your X1 (or whatever the heck it is). If you think I'm reading this into your statements you need to go figure out how to convey your intended meaning while using the english language. More than one person has called you on it. More than two even. I'll accept the fact that the main reason you like to stay around here are the acquaintances you've made but the fact is... You can't help but put Buells down. Why is that? "The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better In case you havent figured it out, thats a question which nobody has answered." I don't believe they have as much HP... I could be wrong though. You still need to get a clue as to what torque multiplication is... Can we agree that the IL4 600's have more than 1/2 the torque and rev to more than 2X the RPM's? There's your answer. Torque multiplication. The quintessential advantage to high RPM engines. The reason that high torque engines need a displacement advantage. I certainly don't think I could help HAL's one iota. I'm quite sure they have professionals on the job. That's beside the point though. The point is that you like to pick on Buells because of your experience with the mother ship. I'm sorry for your experiences, really. That doesn't give you a right to blast Buells. Maybe if there was something to blast about? Tenth is pretty close to their worst finish yes? Their average finish while racing? "Ducati has 749cc V-twins which are competitive..granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what? The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better?" You are comparing apples and oranges... Pushrods and testastretta. I know you're more intelligent than that so what can I assume your motive is? Maybe to make the point to those less informed about the inherent drawbacks of certain engine designs that Buell can't build a competitive engine so they have to use a crutch (extra displacement). If I'm wrong please tell me... What IS the point of making that statement Dyna? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Anonymous |
Hey Dyna, a frickin pushrod two valve air-cooled motor is as different from a DOHC four valve water cooled motor as a two stroke is from a four stroke. No one bitched in MotoGP when it took a four stroke with double the displacement and more cylinders to beat a two stroke. Air-cooled pushrod two valve motors get great fuel mileage and have much better emissions than a DOHC water-cooled...sounds kinda like the four-stroke/two stroke thing doesn't it? So, just like in MotoGP, there are different displacements for different types of motors in Formula Extreme. BTW, one of the highly touted MotoGuzzi MGS-01s (which also are allowed 1350cc, as are BMW and anyone else who wants to enter an air-cooled twin) was at Laguna and missed the 112% cutoff by about 4 seconds a lap. I believe it was 11 seconds per lap off Barnes and Cicotto, while Cicotto and Barnes were only about 4 seconds off the pole time for World Superbike. So, are the Buells doing well? Definitely. Barnes tossed it away while moving up through the field on the first lap because his tires were cold, or he woulda been right in there too. So, enjoy your cookie cutter Jap bike, you have every right. But don't expect anything but ridicule when you try to put down the Buells, which are unquestionably the best air-cooled race bikes ever made. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bads1 |
Another broken record topic!!! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rocketman |
Whilst we're on names.......Dyna, please don't refer to anyone as 'Rocket' other than me. Thanks. The Buells are competitive. Just not competitive enough. What's the limiting factor? MONEY! Rocket | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rocketsprink |
First, I have other things going on in my life other than riding with "the club". I didn't know if ya weren't able to make it that you are some kind of loser. I would love to go all the time, but ya know what I figured out? THERE AIN'T THAT MUCH GOING ON! I can count on one hand the amount of planned rides that I knew of, so I would hope you had a good time without me. Must have looked odd with the Jap bike mixed in there. But I digress. I don't know s*it. I only grow up in a family where we raced motocross, a father that raced in the Formula Atlantic series, built street rods, drag raced a Dodge Polaris 413 max wedge, so I think I know a little about motors, horsepower, and how they work. I give up. I think I'm done with Brag and this whole thing. Got guys that have rights to the NICKNAME rocket. Nice knowing ya all. Have fun. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jon |
Kudos, M1 and Anonymous. Rocket, when I'm in the mood may I refer to you as, "El Rockeeto"?  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rocketman |
Hey Rocketsprink, I was not insulting you dude! I've had the nickname since I was 18 and I'm attached to it. Just didn't want any confusion when someone refers to 'Rocket'. Hell, I get enough crapola anyway without anyone else's  Rocket | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rocketman |
'El Rockeeto' is fine, when you're in the mood darling! Rockeeto!! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| José_quiñones |
The "competitive" FX bikes are at around 140 HP at the wheel. The most significant limiting factor at this point is the Buells are a good 20 pounds heavier than the bikes in front of them. Anonymous  , You compare the Guzzi bike's lap times to the Buell Rider's lap times, I believe they you need the combination of a rider and a bike to get around the track. I'm sure Bryan F Kovarick is a much better rider than I am, but I don't think he's quite up to the level of the other riders in that class, so to just blame the Guzzi by itself is a bit silly. Anyway, here are the top seven Formula Extreme race trap speeds from Laguna Seca:
Yet that is not how they finished did they? If it was only about Horsepower/Top Speed, Mike C (and his bike) would have finished a very excellent Fifth place. Of course the red flag makes meaningful comparisons difficult between this race and the Superport race, for example. Segment times, final finishing order and other neat trivia can be found HERE edited by josé_quiñones on July 12, 2004 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| José_quiñones |
Rocketsprink Don't go away this is just getting good. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Crusty |
The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better Is that a trick question? What difference does displacement make? It's horsepower that counts. But to answer your question while ignoring the Red Herring, the answer is pretty obvious. Miguel DuHamel, Jake Zemke and Ben Bostrom. Nobody whipped Bostrom this weekend, and Miguel and Jake have won all the other races. It's Buells first year at this level of racing, so I think it's only fair to give them a chance to develop their race bikes. Put a IRL or Cart or Nascar up against a Formula 1 car with a little 3 liter motor a I WILL BET THE FARM the F-1 car will KILL them all! In a 500 mile race? Nascar runs long races every week, and the motors hold up pretty good. Do you honestly believe that a Formula 1 engine would last that long? I think that you're comparing apples and coconuts. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bob_thompson |
One thing everyone may be missing here is to be very competitive you have to have CUBIC MONEY with factory backing. Even the metrics that are privateers are not that competitive. I'd like to know what the Honda organization spends on their racing program. And yes horsepower wins races and is the product of torque times r.p.m. How about a Buell oversquare 4 valve cammer that Eric wants to put in the winners circle. Oh well I can dream, can't I. Eric, are you listening? Race on Sunday, sell on Monday. 'Nuf said. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Smoke |
competive, to me, is occasional top 5 finishes and some battles for 1st and 2nd at some point in the race. not there yet. more money required, possibly. maybe more factory support. i'm glad to see the buells racing, but. tim |
