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Clydeglide
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 04:31 pm: | 
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Hate to put this thread back on track.......
check it out....
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2004/Jun/e/n040625f.htm
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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Someone please explain to me why a person needs a 170MPH bike in NYC
Because the throttle works both ways Court.
Whilst I understand the point you and others make it is never the less a negative one for motorcycling. It's not good to base ones judgements on an R1 laying in some armco barrier. That unfortunately tars everyone with the same brush, no matter what bike (size).
There's always going to be deaths due to motorcycles, slowing them down won't change that. I can't speak for the U.S but over here there are more riders killed in urban areas than there are on the open road. On the open road most deaths are due to rider error and excessive speed for the conditions are nearly always a contributing factor. Meanwhile, we should simply accept that some people who ride bikes will die because of them, but that is no reason to restrict, ban or not build them.
The problem over here is in part due to many 'born again bikers' who've not ridden powerful modern bikes ever, in most cases those same riders haven't ridden anything in 10 to 20 years, never mind the modern stuff. That said, experienced riders die too but they are most definitely the minority.
The solution is training and the responsibility of training lies right at the heart of motorcycling, with each and every manufacturer. Manufacturers should put each and everyone of their customers through some sort of schooling. Schooling should involve classroom, road and track teaching. You don't get your bike until you show you're competent.
I also have a more controversial theory on two wheeled road safety. I would like to see motorcycles exempt from speeding laws except when ridden in recognized town, village or built up areas where normal speed limits apply.
Bikers are always going to ride fast on the open road when there appears to be no police presence and the conditions allow. Instead of this being a punishable ofence it should really be the reward for bikers adhering to the speed limits in every town, village or built up area. Exceeding these limits should be where the police impose severe penalties to riders who don't abide. Let's face it, we're never going to slow down unless we see a cop or a speed trap when we're on the open road so exempting bikes from speed limits in this scenario won't change a thing but it will make us adhere to the limits where it's most important to do so - in the danger zone.
Rocket |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 07:14 am: |
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Well, here's my 2 cents for this thread.
I've test rode the Buells and will say that their handling is by far one of the best. I feel I could keep up with if not pass people in the corners. In the straights I could keep up a fight till the triple digits get hit. No, I do not own a Buell yet but I want to some day. I own an old FZR that I've tinkered with. I've ridden an R1 before and would like it but overall I would take the Buell before it. There's just something about the Buell that does it for me. I guess it's because it looks and feel different. I like to be able to go to bike night and not have a bike that looks like every other cookie cutter one there. Would I like the VROD engine in the Buell, hell mother yeah! I also agree that the old sportster engine is not going to suffice for this bike and that they need more power to get it going. Maybe, just maybe it will happen in 2005. I can't see Harley taking on Buell without an idea of what to do with it. I myself tire of the bashing on Buell and vice versa. We all ride, why do you care what someone rides? |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 08:04 am: |
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Rocket...good news. You and I agree 100%
>>>it is never the less a negative one for motorcycling.
Precisely, particularly in the way it impacts my insurance.
>>>There's always going to be deaths due to motorcycles,..
Precisely, my point is that this one was stupid and unnecessary. One PERSON'S (not the motorcycle) stupid judgement will steepen the "motorcycling is a good thing" hill I have to climb.
many 'born again bikers' who've not ridden powerful modern bikes ever
Precisely...the same folks who buy 37RWHP "performance" Sportsters.
I kind of like your "no speed limits" on the open road idea and have offered up something similar in the past that incorporates your schooling thoughts.
I'd like to see a "public road expert" license. It would require some number of years experience, some intensive schooling in operation of the bike, knowledge of the laws and intensive (not like the current open book where everyone gets 100%) testing and biennial certification.
Bottom line, you decide what speed to ride on what road. If you blow it and cause an accident you forever waive your privledge to ride and go to jail for 5 years.
How's that?
Never happen here in America, but in Europe (where you have real training and certification) it might hold some chance.
I always feel sorry for people who die on motorcycles, even the stupid ones.
Court |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 05:55 pm: |
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Rocket, you make a good point. With my M2 adhering to speed limits on a open stretch of "Cornfield Highway" with no visible LEO's or traffic is a difficult, if not impossible mission...especially on a Buell or any big bore sport bike. The bike is MADE to cruise at 80. I couldn't agree more with your push for rider training/education, but as Court said, it won't happen here. Too many yuppies and soccer moms at the voting polls. And you hit the nail on the head  regarding people who haven't ridden for 20 years climbing on board a crotch rocket and lighting the fuse. They don't have the skills to stay ahead of the power curve, and they don't have the knowledge to realize it nor the natural caution/fear that a newbie has. It's a sad thing when any biker goes down, but you have to ride like they're all trying to kill you because they are. Not intentionally, of course, but nonetheless the same result.
Court; the only thing about your idea about losing riding privileges and going to jail for five years....When was the last time YOU got "behind the curve"?  |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 07:13 pm: |
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Dyna - your 10:15 post with the switching out of the President's name accurately describes todays society as well, the difference being with modern communications things are likely to happen at a faster rate.
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 11:55 pm: |
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Squid,
Good one on the feminine side comment. You've come a long way baby! 
But Nixon caused the demise of the muscle car??? Dude! The gas shortage and Japanese economy cars killed the muscle car. Good to see them make a comeback.
Blake (past owner of a 1970 Chevelle SS) |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:23 am: |
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Don't forget the everloving EPA---about 1975 cars started aquiring all kinds of bandaid smog controls that killed performance.Remember the NOX kits and Chryslers "Lean-burn engines". |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 01:59 am: |
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Rocket...good news. You and I agree 100%
That's the way I like it
Hey, wasn't taking a pop at you Court, but some people assume all fast riders are idiots. Sometimes we fall off and live. One time we don't. Anyone can get it wrong, make a mistake, and bin it. Even the best can.
I was trying to make the point that anyone who buys a fast motorcycle does not do it with haste. They carefully consider their options, never believing they can't control the power they're about to own. No one is an idiot when buying a motorcycle but you might be one when falling off it. The point is, we all run the same risk and we all at sometime or another fall off, so we should not be to quick to call the person who just died chucking his R1 into the armco because it could have been anyone of us on one of those red mist days - and we all have them (idiots) otherwise we wouldn't buy powerful motorcycles.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 02:33 am: |
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Ah, forgot to mention the training.
Over here one can take the advanced driving test with the Institute of Advanced Drivers (IAD). If you pass, and I understand it is rigorous to the letter of the Highway Code, you get a nifty badge for the front of your motor, so your neighbours and friends get to know you're a safety conscious prick behind the wheel, and you get good discounting on motor insurance but boy is it ever different for bikes.
The advanced bike riding test is very tough in theory and practice and it is the same test that police motorcyclists get to do. This means you are taken to a nice bit of road somewhere in the countryside and you have to ride fast whilst being pursued (read, chased) by a an examiner on another motorcycle.
The benefits? Aside from the valuable training and experience, discount insurance and bargaining power with the 'ole bill' when you get pulled for speeding.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 06:50 am: |
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Well, I must confess. I rode a motorcycle yesterday (for the first time in 14 months) and I drove far in excess of the posted limits.
The good part.....
1) I know my skills are rusty and did this in rural NJ around no other folks.
2) I was on a BMW with a top end of less than 100.
Suppose I should borrow Stephen's Superbusa and take another crack at it?....nahhhh.
It is scary what a person with no training can buy for little money these days.
Court |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 08:11 am: |
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I agree, but experience counts for a lot when buying a motorcycle, even if you haven't ridden one in 14 months. Imagine if you went to your Buell dealer to purchase a new 12S, you tell him the truth, you haven't ridden in 14 months, and he refuses to sell you a 12S until you've taken some training. Imagine if our governments made this training compulsory. There would be little in the way of regulation as no one knows when an individual last rode or what that individuals experience amounts to, so how would this apply to all?
Should we all be trained every year or two or three? Is training enough to satisfy the objective - save lives? Would this mean testing everyone at the end of training - fail and you do it again - and no bike until you've passed?
Fact is, people will still die on motorcycles, and through riding them fast, even when trained, so compulsory training is not a step in the right direction if it hinders once access to motorcycles because the only way compulsory training would work is if we all had to do it on a regular basis under the watchful eye of the powers that be. Not good for ones two wheeled enjoyment.
The only answer is for the manufacturers to insist we be put through our paces, at their expense and organization, every time we buy a bike from their authorized dealer. There should always be access available to non-franchised dealers and their customers, and the private individual, not necessarily at the manufacturers expense on this one, and incentives should be offered to encourage individuals to train. Perhaps structured discount cards for goods purchased, be it clothing, accessories or even bikes, at dealerships.
Every time a biker is killed, whether they acted like an idiot or not, it's probably another nail in the coffin of motorcycling freedoms. Our awareness of such negatives affecting us all should tell us to turn our attitudes into productive pro-biking ones. Our voices have always needed and still do need to be heard. Time for pro-active industry incentives rather than governments calling the tune on what and how powerful the machines are and how we ride them. We should take on the role of self regulation. It's our responsibility.
Rocket |
Jasonblue
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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I have posted this before, but I'm going to do a quick recap as it applies.
Guy I know has NEVER ridden a bike, period. Walks into a Suzuki dealership looking to buy a bike. No liscense, insurance, or experience.
About an hour later he is the proud owner of an 04' Gixxer 600. He can not take possesion of the bike at this time however. Not because he dosn't have a liscence or a clue for that matter, but because it is raining.
He does pick the bike up the next afternoon and by 10 PM the bike is wrecked and he is in the hospital with a broken leg.
Sorry but this guy should never have been able to buy that or any other bike under those circumstances. Furthermore, I think the dealer should be held partially responsible for the incident. |
Mark_in_ireland
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:59 pm: |
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Quote...Imagine if you went to your Buell dealer to purchase a new 12S, you tell him the truth, you haven't ridden in 14 months, and he refuses to sell you a 12S until you've taken some training.
Imagine getting your S1 back after 4 years and being told that the dyno chart shows it to accelerate faster from 30 - 105mph in 3rd (euro gearing) than a race tuned R1 in 3rd! I might need some training...toilet training springs to mind! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 04:40 pm: |
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Hey mother sucker, time to update your profile?
Rocket |
R1DynaSquid
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 06:20 pm: |
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Walks into a Suzuki dealership looking to buy a bike. No liscense, insurance, or experience.
About an hour later he is the proud owner of an 04' Gixxer 600.
Jason,
when we bought both the Blast & the X1 the dealership required us to have proof of insurance before they would let us leave the dealership.
But when we bought the R1, it was like "here's your keys, have fun". No insurance no nothing. I did however call my agent on the phone from the dealer while the wife was doing the paperwork & told him what were buying & that takes care of on my end.
I think anyone who buys a new bike & doesnt have both full coverage insurance as well as training is simply a fool. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 07:34 pm: |
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How about the dealers or factories getting together and "giving"(add $100 to sale price) a lousy track day to their customer. Customer gets to see what it'll do and learn something in a reasonable environment with some supervision. Dealer gets to fix handelbars and bodywork when they think they're Valintino. Track day promoter gets possible repeat customers. No legislation necessary. Corporate consciense, Yes. I had my X1 for a year before I knew track days existed. Thank You BRAG. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 08:15 pm: |
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I think anyone who buys a new bike & doesn't have both full coverage insurance as well as training is simply a fool.
You had training for that R1 Dyna?
Rocket |
Clydeglide
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 09:14 pm: |
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Last year my now 83 year old father purchased a 150 Vespa. State of Florida law requires a motorcycle license for anything 50cc or over. He gets his permit, takes the test on the Vespa, obtains a perfect score and recieves his license. He is now licensed to ride his Vespa, a Goldwing, or my Hayabusa. Go figure...
Says the Vespa tops out at 67mph.
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R1DynaSquid
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 09:34 pm: |
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You had training for that R1 Dyna?
23 years of street riding, MSF course graduate, advanced riders course MSF graduate, motorcycle accident scene management graduate, numerous track days, as well as working my way up thru the HP rank of bikes.
Yes I would say I have been trained.
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Captainkirk
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 11:37 pm: |
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A friend of mine (who I also work with) rides. He's been riding longer than I in total miles ridden...yet he's ridden but once this season (a short ride at that). "Too busy" is the reason. Sadly, this is the case with many bike owners I know. A lot of them ridicule me for my usual daily 45 minute rides as not being a true biker because I don't go for once-a-month four hour marathons...yet, in the end, who is more in tune with their machine? I know when something is wrong, or "just doesn't feel right". I know when I'm rusty on the twisties or just plain behind the curve (OK Court, ya got me!)
But I know so many people who drag the bike out twice/three times a year and expect to be proficient with all the reflexes and sensory input they had when they tucked the bike in bed 6 months ago. Which is why they frequently find themselves skewered in the side of a semi or spitting out blades of grass in a roadside ditch. I take my riding seriously, as many of the pilots I know take their flying seriously. I'm sure nobody who posts on this site has the above-mentioned problem, but I'll also bet most of you ride daily, if not weekly...yes? It's like firearms training. You cannot stuff your semiauto handgun under a mattress for three years and expect to function in a rational and calm manner when someone is kicking down your door. Chances are you'll die without ever getting the safety off. Same goes for a panic stop or evasive manuever. Ride often, practice, and expect the worst. And when it doesn't come thank God, pop a cold one and relax. . Don't think by this that I don't enjoy every second of throttle twist...I do. I just realize the inherent dangers that come along for the ride. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 04:48 am: |
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Dyna, I haven't been trained since the very early 80's.
Am I a fool in the context you're speaking?
Should I be excluded from buying a new bike consequently?
Would you prefer we live in a nanny state?
Training can only be a good thing, but lack of it for some should not exclude them from riding what they choose. In any case it's not always the riders ability that lets them down but their momentary loss of common sense. Something you yourself will experience on that R1 at sometime, if not already.
In motorcycling it doesn't do well to brand anyone a fool. We are all that fool at one time or another. That's the joy of motorcycling.
Rocket |
R1DynaSquid
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 08:33 am: |
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Thats a pretty weak argument Sean, come on you can do better. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 10:05 am: |
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And some think we are all fools for riding at all.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 09:23 pm: |
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No that's just it Dyna. I can't do better. Further more, it's the same point I was making to Court.
I don't ride motorcycles to be sensible. If I did I'd have bought a BMW. For me there is very little fun in riding slow or steady unless I'm on a journey going somewhere. When I'm out for a blast I like to ride the open road fast. How fast depends on the conditions. That's the sensible bit. If I end up in a ditch or in the armco I'd like to believe I made a mistake, but that doesn't make me a fool. Might do if I was wearing shorts and a T but that ain't gonna happen.
Rocket |
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