| Author | Message | ||
     Blasterd |
Guys, I have made numerous adjustments to the clutch over and over according to the manual and the advise of others on this board but have had no luck. I had to park the bike and hitch a ride to work due to the fact that it is sticking in gears now and I don't want to cause any more damage. I guess I am to the point where I am going to have pull the entire clutch to see if there is problem internally. Before I do that is there anything that could be wrong in the tranny? I checked the primary chain and it is in spec. If I do have to pull the clutch, is there anyone that would feel the love and loan me a clutch spring forcing screw and a spring compressing tool? I will pay for shipping. Ken | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
I think you should pull the clutch basket out and check the detent plate. I think the last thing you should do is open up the clutch basket at this point. There is just a stupid little clip that holds on the detent plate. If the shift pins on the shift drum pushed out it probly broke off the little clip. That might be why your stuck in gear b/c your detent plate isn't in contact with the pins and not turning the shift drum. I went ahead and updated the shift drum with the baker smooth shift kit. Thats just my guess. edited by phatkidwit1eye on May 11, 2004 | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
This is what mine looked like. It's not a great pic, but you can see where the clutch basket was cutting into the detent plate.  | ||
| Jst |
Blasterd, When I pull my clutch I use a large (2"-3"  snail clamp and put a piece of 1/8 steel bar with a 3/8" hole in the center across it. Then I use the stock clutch adjustment nut to put pressure on the bart. This rig will compress the springs enough to pop the C clip and remove the basket. | ||
| Buelliedan |
sounds like the detent plate is rubbing inside the clutch basket to me as well. Quite common problem with the Sportster trans if ridden hard. | ||
| Blasterd |
Has anyone else used anything like Jst is explaining or does everyone use Harley specific tools? Ken | ||
| Reepicheep |
Blastard.... You don't have to take the clutch apart to remove it... it comes off as an assembly with the rotor and primary chain at the same time. Is the clutch working? When you pull the lever with the engine running, does the bike stop moving forward? If so, the clutch pack is not your problem. I would be looking at the detent plate first, the drum pins next, then 5th gear drive assembly. You can pop the seal inside the front sprocket on the belt drive side of the bike and inspect some of the bearings inside the 5th gear drive assembly. You would have to remove a couple covers (easy) and put in a new seal when you are done (cheap). You can't see that much of the bearing (if it is still there), but if it has failed badly you will see lots of little pieces of the part formerly known as a bearing falling out. | ||
| Blasterd |
Reepicheep, The clutch works in regards to when you pull the lever it does what it is supposed to. When I shift it goes into "neutral" no matter what gear I am shifting into. What tool do I actually need to check the detent plate? A snap ring compressor? Ken | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like it is not your clutch then. Just pull the rotor and clutch and primary chain together as a unit. The magnets on the rotor will fight you, but after you have smeared sufficient oil on everything you own, dropped enough tools into your pan full of primary fluid, and pinched your fingers enough times, it will allow itself to be removed. It's a learning experience the first time you pull the stuff off, but it's not really that big a job. Impact tools are helpful, but not necessary. A cheap breaker bar (2 foot or more long, 1/2 inch drive) from harbor freight will work. You *should* use a 1/2 inch drive torque wrench to put it back on (again cheap at harbor freight), but the torque specs for that thing are high enough that you can calculate how far out to stand on your breaker bar to get it close. Have a scrap piece of aluminum bar handy as well to fashion a locking bar between the sprockets. I have a thick piece of aluminum U channel stuff that I smashed flat into a bar on a vice that has served me "well enough" for 3 or 4 pulls now. I don't think you need anything special to get the detent plate off, it is not really a snap ring, more of a stamped metal clip. You do want a new replacement clip though. There is also an updated detent plate. I think they started going in part of the way through 2000, my 2000 M2 had the new style, you probably have it as well. Regardless, when you get in there, you will probably need some parts anyway, hard to say what, so I would get it apart and give it a lookover before going to my friendly local Buell dealer. Once you have the thing apart, it's pretty obvious how the things work together, and you can excercise it and see what is and what is not working. And if it feels like a lot of work to get to the detent plate, be encouraged, once you get that far you are only 5 bolts or so from having the entire transmission cartridge out and on your bench... exceptionally cool stuff! | ||
| Blasterd |
Thanks Reepicheep, you have been very helpful. I am going to start this weekend. I have a 18" socket bar with a 1/2 inch drive do you think it will get the job done? I will also be pulling the rocker covers since I have both leaking pretty well, Dave S hooked me up with the parts. I can't wait to get the black Cyclone going right again, wouldn't you know when the summer hits, the Cyclone breaks. Ken | ||
| Reepicheep |
That'll probably do it... especially if you are not above a few whacks on it with a hammer, or just jumping on the dumb thing. Sears has a nice selection of "really big" sockets for reasonable prices. I also got a set of metrics at (of all places) KMart. When the nuts get that big, the metric versus SAE question gets kind of academic, they are close in size and there is a ton of bearing surface for either to get ahold of. I believe auto zone also rents electric impact tools as well... but you should be able to get it off. Follow the manual, it tells you which nuts turn backwards | ||
| Blasterd |
Guys, Update! I pulled the primary and although I haven't pulled the clutch basket, I did find out the problem. When I was looking into the transmission case, I noticed something stuck to the magnet on the primary drain bolt. It looks like it is half of the detent plate clip and I found the other half in the front of the primary. Thanks for all the advise guys, great call! Ken | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
When you get your clutch basket off make sure that your shift pins are not pushed out. If you have some spare cash it might be a good idea to upgrade to the baker shift drum. The baker doesn't use a clip it actually uses a bolt to hold the detent plate on. Also make sure when you go to put the detent plate back on you have the correct drill bit so you can adjust it properly. If you do get the Baker piece make sure that the top of the shift arm(lol..I think thats what it's called) isn't coming in contact with the detent plate. I could not figure out for the life of me why I couldn't get it into 4th gear. I ended up having to grind a little bit of metal off the arm to clear the detent plate. Glad you figured it out.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Fantastic Blasterd, that is the easiest thing you could have had gone wrong, and easiest thing to fix! Make sure you have the updated primary chain tensioner while you are in there. | ||
| Blasterd |
Already have it Bill, that was taken care of last time I went into the primary. Ron, how much did that Baker kit run you? Ken | ||
| Captainkirk |
Not meaning to hijack your thread Ken, but while we're on the subject....I'm gonna have to go back through and read all of this post. As I mentioned in the Old School Buell post, I had some trouble downshifting the last two rides which escalated today into a big problem. I couldn't get it to down shift at ALL to the point where I thought I was in first at a stop light and when I was clear to turn and let out the clutch it quit- I must've been in third. I nursed it home (UPSHIFTING-no problem) got it on the lift and pulled the primary cover. There was some metal on the drain plug but everything looks good. Anybody else run into this? Could I have bent a shift fork? I've had no trouble shifting at all before last week. | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
If I remember it was about $279 bucks. When I got it I spent some time polishing the crap out of it and I filed down a few raised lips. I probably didn't need to but I'm just picky like that. | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
Capt...I dunno but maybe you could check your clutch cable and primary belt to see if it's adjusted correctly. If you have a manual you could adjust the clutch as well. This is just a shot in the dark but, if your clutch isn't fully disengaging you might have a problem down shifting. I think the reason you can upshift is b/c your kinda power shifting it. Can you down shift your bike while it's not running? You should be able to rock your bike back and forth and down shift when it's not running. Like I said it's a total guess on my part and I very well could be wrong. Hopefully someone with waaay more knowledge then I have can help ya. edited by phatkidwit1eye on May 24, 2004 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Kirk... Sounds like 5th gear drive assembly, the internal bearings. I had the exact same thing, and have blathered endlessly about it in the knowledge vault. How do you set your belt tension? Following the manual is probably what torched mine. Note that I was able to get mine to "clear up" after the first time I did it... but it was a fools fantasy. It worked OK again, but what really happened was that the bearing cage was destroyed, and the leftover parts became a plain bearing on the transmission shaft, making a mess of it. Replacing the bearings in the 5th gear drive assembly is a hassle, replacing either shaft in the tranny is a lot worse. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Looking with a mirror, I can see the shift detent plate is not square with the end of the shift drum, and it looks like the snap ring is crooked in the groove and/or bent. The shift pawl has dropped in between the detent plate and the drum. At any rate, it's not right. What size impact sockets are needed to get the clutch drum and front sprocket loose? On the front, 1 1/8 seems too loose, and won't go on the clutch drum nut. By any chance could they be metric? If anyone knows the size, please let me know ASAP as I'll pick up some new impact sockets after work. Also, the front nut is R/H thread and the clutch drum nut is L/H, correct? When I get to the bottom of this I'll definitely post pix. Reep, I hope you're wrong about the 5th gear thing, but just in case, how much harder is it to get the gearbox out once the primary sprockets are off? edited by captainkirk on May 24, 2004 | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
The clutch nut is I think 1 3/8. I dont know off the top of my head what the other is. You will need a deep socket to get the rotor off though. Once you get every thing off it's just a few bolts that hold the tranny in. I think the hardest thing is to break loose the clutch basket and rotor. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If your pawl is screwed up, fix that first. But pulling the tranny is only like 5 more bolts once you get to that part, worth doing just to peek at the insides of that 5th gear assembly... heck, worth doing just to say you did it. It's pretty cool, and you can give the tranny a thorough inspection. I forget the socket sizes, I just measured them with calipers, went to sears, and found two sockets that had the right size holes. Once the nuts get that big, a little slop in the fit is not a huge deal, there is still plenty of bearing surface for the flats. Have a scrap aluminum bar around to cut down into a lock bar between the rotor and clutch sprockets. I typically end up getting them off with a long breaker bar, which I stand and / or pound on, you don't really need impact tools (my crappy impact tool would not touch it, but it only took a couple bounces standing on my breaker bar to get em off). Just make sure you are turning them the right way... One of 'ems backwards | ||
| Henrik |
Captain; please double check the thread direction of those nuts in the manual (can't get to mine now) - it's a Royal Pain when that nut strips out ... don't ask. Henrik (can't remember which one I stripped?? Took a lot of pounding with the impact wrench though  ) | ||
| Captainkirk |
Made the tool out of aluminum stock referencing the picture in the maintenance manual. I think it should work. Family issues kept me from the store but I'll try it out tomorrow. My impact is pretty hefty but if it doesn't work I'll try the Reep bar method. My book says the clutch basket nut is L/H thread so I'm assuming the crank sprocket is R/H (am I right, Henrik?) And I hate to say it but I agree with your philosophy, Reep about pulling the gearbox....because I can.    | ||
| Captainkirk |
Found the problem! One of the drum pins appears to be backing out, which cocked the detent plate and put pressure on the c-clip, causing it to crack, which popped one end out of the groove. This caused the shift pawl to drop off the top of the detent plate and down on the side, where it's worn (and needs replacement). So far it looks like the only casualties are the detent plate and the c-clip. I don't know why the pin is backing out. Questions: 1) Anyone else seen problems w/ loose drum pins? 2) Is there an improved (or aftermarket) detent plate (other than the Baker, which I believe only works with the Baker drum) 3) The c-clip appears to be a bogus way of attaching the detent plate. Any better ideas? 4) Since Blasterd and myself both had the same problem within a week of each other, anybody else having shifting difficulties? BTW, The sockets needed to pull the primary are (front sprocket) 28mm six point deep impact, this is a right hand thread. Rear (clutch basket) 30mm six point standard impact, LEFT HAND THREAD.If anyone needs a primary sprocket lock tool I can get you drawings and dimensions. The one I made worked great.    edited by blake on June 01, 2004 | ||
| Henrik |
Hoser, I think, described this as a fairly common occurrence awhile back. The Baker shift drum, I think, has the pins more firmly attached, and the detent plate is held on with an Allen head bolt, not just a clip. AFAIR, even if you re-seat the pin, it'll likely back out again. Hoser, please feel free to chime in with the correct info here. Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
There should be info about this in the knowledge vault. I remember somebody tried to put threads on the post that holds that clip, and had a heck of a time with the steel. Don't think they ever got it to work. The Baker kit is pricey, but makes the transmission a LOT better. I think you have to pretty much strip down and totally reassemble to tranny to get it in though. I forget, do those pins need to float at all? Any reason you could not just pound them back into place, and tack weld them into position or something? | ||
| Henrik |
I frankly wasn't too impressed with the Baker Smooth Shift kit I put in the S2. Granted I used the new/improved Buell detent plate instead of the Baker - I was guessing that it *ought to* work the same. Of course I may have been wrong ... darn it, and for the first time too But the detent plate mounting is much improved over stock. I don't remember what the deal is with the pins. Can't imagine that they couldn't be welded in place? Would a weld bead get in the way of anything mechanical in that area? Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
perhaps some planetary grade of loctite, instead of welding? also, without the manual in from of my, many folks are referring to the "rotor" . . . . . which part is that, if you can splain? I'm having trouble with missed 1 to 2 shifts of late, and am considering getting in there before it gets worse (or to prove I'm imagining it cuz I'm reading these pesky shifting threads ;-} ) thanks oh, yeah, and a question for Reep, specifically . . . if I take all the required tools for this job and just dump them inot a pans of old oil, will that allow me to skip the "drop everything into the pan of drained primary lube" step? ;-} edited by bomber on May 27, 2004 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Only if the old oil smells as bad as normal transmission oil. Otherwise, it won't count.  The Rotor is the round pan that holds all the magnets. The alternator has two parts, the stator (static not moving part with all the wires) and the rotor (rotating part with all the magnets). edited by reepicheep on May 27, 2004 |
