| Author | Message | ||
     Dino |
Recently, on another Badweb thread, one of our number posted comments critical of "zero tolerance law enforcement." That got me thinking. Now, as my friend, Ferris, could no doubt attest, thinking can be a painfully slow process with me; so please bear with me. Lately, I've noticed a distressing trend here in Central California. Drivers in urban settings are becoming alarmingly lax when operating their motor vehicles. Speeding, changing lanes without signaling, driving while distracted, etc. When a high percentage of drivers are operating their vehicles in this manner in close proximity, accidents seem inevitable. Further, people are failing to obey various other sections of the vehicle code, tires protruding past fenders, window tinting forward of the B-pillar, tinted covers on headlights, and, gasp, failing to install the front plate on cars and trucks. (Yes, you are required to do so in California.) At any rate, I believe that the time has come to take a "zero tolerance" approach to such lawlessness. Now, you may say that pursuing such a policy will stretch our already over-burdened city police forces to the breaking point. I've considered that. I suggest that we can remediate that problem by supporting the police with deputy sheriff and Highway Patrol officers that are now needlessly spending their time patrolling the twisty byways and backroads of our local rural areas. For goodness sake, what lawbreakers and evil-doers do they expect to find out there??! Well, is there any support for my plan out there in BadWeb land? | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
Yes, zero tolerance is the answer. My Marines F@#$ up and say things like, "But I just threw a bottle through a window... Why am I being jailed for 45 days?" I'm flabberghasted! Do parents really raise children this poorly? To treat such things so lightly? I've gotten where I am in my career because I've kept my nose clean. If I can they can too! So no sympathy here. I recommend maximum punishment. Thus, my thinking is the same for society. If people don't have the moral fortitude to do what's right, then they must be made to do so. To bend the law instead is ridiculous to me... | ||
| Brucelee |
I could not agree more. I live in San Diego and think the CA drivers are the worst I have ever seen. Actually, it isn't even close. The CHP guys I meet with at the local cafe tell me they have never been stretched so far on manpower and need to focus only on the worst offenders. Fortunately, the CHP on bikes are a bit sensitive about issues that would hurt bikers and get a bit testy with those assholes! | ||
| Dasxb9s |
A young man helped his grandmother move over a weekend. He attended his high school the following Monday. Observed in the bed of his truck was a butter or table knife that had fallen from a box. He was suspended from school for a considerable amount of time for bringing a knife to school. Zero tolerance leave NO latitude for circumstances beyond the intend of the rule. Someone honestly tell me that his suspension contributed to preventing violence in the school. hypothetical... my son the "A" student carrying a 4.0 GPA is jumped by some kid in the hall for what ever reason the kid did not like him. If he lays on the floor and lets the kid beat the s**t out of him he stays in school. If he defends himself in any way, he is suspended for fighting. Zero tolerance is a lame way of correcting a problem. Just as it seems people claim they are not responsible because of XYZ. and use that to defend them self and avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Zero tolerance removes the responsibility to investigate the incident and find the facts. Zero tolerance removes all flexibility that is needed for fairness! | ||
| Anonymous |
I`m a PO for the NYPD and unfortately i know all too well about about zero tolerance days. The days are declared by the mayor office for the police to issue summons even the slightest infactions. WHY??? Because big cities have realized that summons create money for the city, and lots of it. On zero enforcement days cops are sent out with supervisors to make sure that any possible violation results in a summons. I feel embarrassed to be a cop on these days. Here are some of the most common violations that are written on these days: Open alcoholic container (even in a bag) Riding a bicycle the wrongway down the street Jaywalking spitting on the street Riding a bicycle on the sidewalk Disorderly conduct (for yelling) Begging on the street Sleeping Sitting on a milk crate (illegal in NYC !!!) Tresspassing (sitting on the steps of a bldg) Littering Unleased dog (or lease less than 6ft) These are just a few of the BS summons we are forced to write. In ALL cases these people have to go to court to answer the summons and the fine is determined by the judge. The fine for the first offence is between $100 to $1000 dollars, or anywhere in between. Many violations are even more like: Audible car alarm (more than 2mins) $2000 Honking horn $450 to $3000 Last year the city made 1 Billion dollars from parking tickets alone. This year they are on track to make even more. Because the city puts up parking sign that are so confusing to read and understand that even i can`t figure them out sometimes. People blame the police for all of this like i`m getting a percentage of the summons. I`m just the dumb smuck that gets stuck having to do the dirty work. While the city gets rich. Sorry, i just had to vent. | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh and every year when it comes time for a pay raise or cost of living increase the city tell us they are broke sorry. Maybe next year... Our last increase was 2002. How many Deptments have cops that have salary`s so low they can qualify for welfare? But everything is always our fault | ||
| Bomber |
zero tolerance takes the judgment out of the work of Police Officers and Judges . . . . . given that both groups of people are supposed to be intelligent, well versed in their areas of expertise, and be able to work toward the common good, I think zero tolerance is a bad idea . . . . we need people thinking, not reacting | ||
| Curtyd |
I am not blaming the street cop outright. These policies come from above. My position is you NEVER know when you have crossed over into a zero tolerance zone or when the day comes up that it now is a "zero" day. I just think this kind of stuff needs to be publicized, particularly the unsuspecting tourist coming here to Orlando to play. A man complained mightily this AM because when his credit card was rejected the Disney resort didn't even offer him a chance to pay with an alternative means before calling the cops. Guess what? Zero tolerance and behooving to this corporate giant/local employer OCSO promptly hauled the guy off to jail for credit card fraud. This stuff happens every day here and really ruins more than a few person's vacation. | ||
| Easyflier |
Anon, The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus Unfortunately having to enforce the multitude of minor/silly laws just drives a wedge between LEO and the public. My hat is off to the many good officers that are able to exercise good judgement and keep their jobs. | ||
| Blake |
"A man complained mightily this AM because when his credit card was rejected the Disney resort didn't even offer him a chance to pay with an alternative means before calling the cops." So was it credit card fraud or not? If it was, what is your point, that they should let a criminal pay cash to avoid justice?  Anon, Could the zero tolerance have anything to do with increased vigilance for terrorist activities? | ||
| Stealthxb |
Bomber nailed it..."zero tolerance takes the judgment out of the work of Police Officers and Judges" Zero Tolerance Law Enforcement also opposes many of the principles that make this country outstanding. "The American Founders created a society based on the belief that human happiness is intimately connected with personal freedom and responsibility. The twin pillars of the system they created were limits on the power of the central government and protection of individual rights. . . ." --Charles Murray Today's liberals and conservatives have rejected America's heritage of liberty and personal responsibility. I disagree with Easyflier's Tacitus quote and believe that laws are coercive tools many governments use to regulate morality. Problems are not solved by making something illegal. This has been clearly demonstrated with prohibition and the war on drugs. Harsh laws and the threat of jail and fines will not stop drug use. All they do is make it harder to help people. And just as Prohibition created organized crime, today's drug laws keep organized crime alive -- with all the violence and corruption that goes along with it. "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the republic." --StealthXB | ||
| Court |
I am a RESIDENT of New York City and absolutely thrilled about the job the NYPD does. Be mindful, my friends, that no military organization in the world faces the greater threat of imminent danger than a member of the NYPD. Be mind, as well, that the NYPD is many times the population of most towns in Texas and my native Kansas. Training presents challenges that exist nowhere else on this spinning orb. I have yet, in 7 years of living here, to ever feel unsafe on the streets of New York City. Try saying that at 13th and Parallel in KCMO. I know about "Zero Tolerance". I got a ticket for an expired registration yesterday while affixing my new one on...not glued on in time and the TEA told me they'll dismiss it anyway...true, but I have to go through the BS. Also, the NYPD have a distaste for me having a Motorola MaraTrac/Syntor Siren and strobe system, but hey....those tickets are only $105 and the entertainment value, as I get lectured from Houston, makes that worth it. NYPD perfect? Nope. Find me a group of 50,000+ who are? This discussion, like religion or politics, will allow good, valid, supportable points from a variety of perspectives. I sumbit that a good deal of how you "feel" is influenced more by "HOW you receive" rather than "WHAT is transmitted". Just my opinion... | ||
| Bomber |
just as a data point, one can have one's credit card refused if one attempts to make a purchase far away from home without firstt warning the issuing organization that you are traveling . . .(sounds a little like going to Dinsey World on vacation, yes?) . . . it's an extremely valid attempt to reduce losses suffered by stolen/misplaced cards . . .it is not always the result of a fraudulent attempt to use it the lesson to be gleaned here is, call the issuing body before you leave home . . . it may save some difficulties of one kind or another | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
...I suggest that we can remediate that problem by supporting the police with deputy sheriff and Highway Patrol officers that are now needlessly spending their time patrolling the twisty byways and backroads of our local rural areas. For goodness sake, what lawbreakers and evil-doers do they expect to find out there??! Dino, if i'm readin' between the lines right, you're suggesting that we focus all of our law enforcement capabilities on the urban moto-criminals, thereby leaving our bucolic backroads and serpentine canyons free of the fear of instant-on radar? i like it! where's the damn "tongue planted firmly in cheek" emoticon when you need one... FB | ||
| Curtyd |
Blake, it was this man's initial appearance, his first call before a judge after being arrested. The point is when his credit card was declined, Disney called the cops, cops arrested him and no one bothered to ask if he had another way to pay for the room. That was his story, right or wrong, fraud or not, is for a different proceeding down the line. It's kind of significant that he claims no one even ASKED him if he had a another way to pay the bill before carting him away. ARREST first "tell it to the judge" and let the lawyers sort it out IS the policy in Orange Co. | ||
| M1combat |
"I sumbit that a good deal of how you "feel" is influenced more by "HOW you receive" rather than "WHAT is transmitted". " That's a VERY accurate statement Mr. Canfield. | ||
| Sshbsn |
Curtyd seems to be fighting a one-man battle here. I lived in Orlando for several years and the man speaks the truth. If you look beneath the "Stepford Wives," everybody-grin-and-act-like-things-are-great image the city tries to project, it is truly a frightening place for those who value freedom. | ||
| Dino |
FERRIS - THANK YOU!!! By the time I got to your post I had decided that my original tongue-firmly-in-cheek post must have been so obscure as to be completely unintelligible. It's nice to know that there is at least one person out there with as warped a sense of humor as my own. Figures it'd be you.  | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
hey, i resemble that... | ||
| Unibear12r |
I got it, warped humor is alive in central Cal! The local deputys already spend most of their patrol hours in the burbs here. Two notable exceptions is the Glennville area in early June (Rodeo time) and the Lake area. I heard there is a wild-man up there by the lake who's wanted for having entirely too much fun. He's described only as riding a M/C, wearing just a bright orange thong and a BIG smile. Hmmmm... maybe they got their intel a bit mixed.  | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
naw, they've got their intel pretty much spot on.  | ||
| Denisea |
...such a policy will stretch our already over-burdened city police forces to the breaking point ... Well Dino, as long as we are fantasizing....why not have one or two appointed citizens from every county police those aforementioned twisty canyon roads...keep them safe ya know.  My vote for Ferrisville, who else?  | ||
| Dino |
Unibear - No Sunday morning patrol on Granite Rd...they'll be writing bumper height violations on Chester. Ferris - You took the words right out of my mouth. Denise - We'll be stretched pretty thin, guess we'll have to wick it up a bit in order to cover all those back roads. Can we confiscate and destroy any RVs found impeding progress of traffic? edited by dino on May 28, 2004 | ||
| Dullorb |
"A man complained mightily this AM because when his credit card was rejected the Disney resort didn't even offer him a chance to pay with an alternative means before calling the cops." So was it credit card fraud or not? If it was, what is your point, that they should let a criminal pay cash to avoid justice? Lets look at the sparse facts provided. He used his own card. Well that eliminates most types of fraud right there. Perhaps he knowingly gave a card that is intimately attached to his personal finances in an attempt to defraud disney in some way. The likelyhood of that is so remote that I won't seriously entertain it. A much more likely scenario is that he didn't pay attention to his balance. Perhaps he was negligent or perhaps he has a joint account and didn't realize it etc. The point is that from what little we can see it is unlikely he was trying to do anything illegal. And yet 0 tolerance resulted in him being treated like a criminal. Anon, Could the zero tolerance have anything to do with increased vigilance for terrorist activities? Little known fact: Most terrorists in NY were recruited by people sitting on milk crates. Thank goodness we have 0 tolerance to prevent that from happening more often. And most people don't realize that honor student who forgot the bread knife in the back of his pick up was in high school so, as long as you're not in high school, you don't have to worry about getting suspended or expelled for doing a good deed. | ||
| Dino |
Well, okay, since you guys insist on taking this thread seriously: "Let it be remembered that civil liberty consists, not in a right to every man to do just what he pleases, but it consists in an equal right to all citizens to have, enjoy, and do, in peace, security and without molestation, whatever the equal and constitutional laws of the country admit to be consistent with the public good." (John Jay) edited by dino on May 28, 2004 | ||
| M1combat |
Uhhh, that guy was a Federalist right??? That pretty much rules him out of the possibility of having said anything to benefit the common good. I'm sure he had good intentions though. FEDERAList... BIG government... I'll leave the last one out in an effort to not get B slapped by the administration . I only take issue with that statement because the part about "whatever the equal and constitutional laws of the country admit to be consistent with the public good" is way too scary... I'm all for public good I suppose, but not if it means protecting me from myself (which if you ask ME was a prime interest of the Federalist party, a lot like the Democratic party of today). I could be wrong though... The problem with the agenda that glorifies "public good" is that when taken too far (and we're almost there) it becomes the same thing as oppression of personal rights. It's that point when someone tells me I can't do something because THEY don't feel it's right even though I'm not hurting anyone else. Anyway, sorry for the slightly off topic post... | ||
| Dino |
John Jay - First Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court | ||
| Bomber |
Fedralism = Democrats = BIG gubbmint . . . .hmmmm . . . . . does the reverse follow? republican = smaller gubmint? | ||
| Witch1 |
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin...and I whole-heartedly agree. | ||
| M1combat |
"does the reverse follow? republican = smaller gubmint?" Well, not EXACTLY (IMO) but I think that the tendency to increase taxes and spending is generally a goal/ideology that can be associated more correctly with the democrats. Witch1 - I whole heartedly agree with that as well. That's why I resent "the new deal". |
