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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through May 21, 2004 » Which is a better engine xb9 or xb12? « Previous Next »

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Jwz7
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

hi,everyone!i would like to hear some of your thoughts on this.it seems to me after reading alot of posts on this site you can get more performance
out of the xb9,if i'm wrong please let me know.i
can't seem to find much info on the 12.this is
the weekend i hope to be a new buell owner.
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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jwz

er, depends (I know, just what you wanted to hear)

9s have been out there a little longer, so there's a little more development work done for them . . . . .

although I don't own either of em, I've ridden both . . .. .best description I've heard is that the 9 is a small block V8, and the 12 is a big block . . .are you a big block or small block kinda guy?
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M1combat
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

MY OPPINION...

Well, the 9 revs higher than the 12 but has less power and torque in stock form. That's really the only difference. Both get to roughly the same top speed (about 135, speedo should read about 142).

I think the race teams use 9's as a base because of the higher rev limiter (but I think they have a way to raise the rev limiter anyway). I think the rev issue is a moot point myself as I believe someone at some point will make an ECM that will remove the rev limiter or at least make it adjustable.

I guess it all comes down to the stroke. The 12 has a longer stroke and will make more torque (a VERY good thing).

Most race organizations believe that the best engines will be as over square as possible (more bore than stroke) because HP is the king of the racetrack. HP comes with revs and the longer the stroke, the less you can rev the engine at the same wear rate. It really seems though that Buell has found somewhat of a sweet spot concerning the stroke vs. bore issue wrt the 12 vs. the 9.

If you leave it stock I think the 12 is the way to go. If you do some serious mods I think the 9 is the way to go but ONLY because of the rev limiter. Again, I think that someone will make an ECM for the 12 that will make this a moot point.

I think the 9 makes a better track bike (in stock form) and the 12 makes a better street bike (in stock form). I do think however (I have no experience with the issue) that one could still make better lap times with the 12 as it does have more power.

Next...
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M1combat
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Concerning Bombers post... I'm a small block kinda guy but ONLY because they are lighter and can help a car handle better. Either is capable of producing the power needed for a race car. The weight issue is pretty much a non-issue with the XB engines. I think there is only a few pounds difference.

Taking the FIA GT championship as an example...

Most teams that use a large displacement engine (above 3.5L) use a "big block" style engine. These would be the Viper and Marcos. All the cars make close to the same power, they just move the rev limiter around. The Viper revs out at about 7K, the Lamborghini (last years) revs out about 11K. They both turn VERY similar laps. One rides the power, one rides the torque. My personal favorite is the Lister which uses a Jaguar V8 and is right in the middle having good torque for corner exit and good power for speed.

I think that because most people aren't going to build a race bike... The 12 is the way to go because it has more torque for corner exit.
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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

me, I love torque . . . .ever since my 455 GTO, I've been a believer in that cult . . . I'm still trying to find a good logo from the Baldwin Locomotive WOrks to use as a tank badge

that said, if I could choose any original Cobra to own, it would be the small block . .. . .

hey, consistancy is for silly people!
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Mikej
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Define your needs, then find the tool that fits them. Sometimes more power has unexpected results. ; )

http://www.4dintsys.com/jmw/rr/lcloco1x.html

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Bads1
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

M1 Hal's is using the 12 motor now to the best my knowledge
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Mikej
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hal's also has a trapdoor tranny of sorts that is something to consider if you're taking your's down to bare frame.
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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

wow! that had to leave a mark
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Mikej
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Too many beans in the steam me thinks.
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Road_thing
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bomber:

How 'bout this for the tank?



r-t
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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thang, having started my career with Aliis-Chalmers, I'm figuring a Simplicity brand sticker may be more appropriate {grin}
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jwz7 it depends more on what you intend to do with the bike. Since I have a 12 and had a 9 I can tell you what "I" liked about each and where I prefered them to each other. The 9 was decent for around town but I felt it to be too buzzy on the freeway. The 12 excels around town and cruises sweetly on the freeway. The 9 on a track was a dream. Very easy to control throttle input due to the lighter hit of power. Made slow speed corners easier and sweepers just that much more fun. The 12 was fun but it seemed to take more brain power to run it on the track. Had to watch the power a bit more. Slowspeed corners tended to be a tad unnerving when the power would comeon. Admitedly I wasn't used to an engine that wants to lift the front wheel of the ground while your at the apex of the corner cause you rolled on the power a tad fast...heh...Sweepers, the 12s power just seemed to make the bike ride the line harder and faster. But overall I like the 9 for the track and very tight twisty roads and the 12 for everyday life.
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M1combat
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

So... BadS1 - Are they using the stock 12 crank or something custom? I would assume something custom and lighter. I'm very interested in knowing the bore and stroke they run as well as the RPM they tend to shift at. As far as them using the 12 engine... Aren't the cases the same for the 9 and 12?

I don't know... I guess the way I see it is that if you plan on building a race bike you're going to replace so many parts that it doesn't matter which you start with. I see the 12 as a better bike for the street because there's more torque. After a rebuild that uses the stock crank the 12 seems to me to be the better bike for the street because of the longer stroke. I say get a 12 but I don't know what your plans are.

Keep in mind, the XB is NOT a straight line bike. It's made for turns.

Anyone else care to offer their 2c?
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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

reliable sources say that the cams in the 12 are the same dimienions as all other XL and tuber cams, but that 9 cams (and the cam case) are different . . . . ..

just another data point
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M1combat
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Reeeeeeallllyyyy? Hmmm....

If that's the case (no pun intended), then it makes the choice easy. Go for the 12 and learn throttle control for the track.

It just seems to me that the major deciding factor should be the torque. The 9 sacrifices torque. I think that by the time I'm ready for a rebuild there will be an ECM solution that will allow me to adjust the rev limit.

Also... I very rarely take my 12 beyond 6K anyway.

Keep in mind... I'm not as well connected or informed as some on this board and I have zero track experience (on a bike). From what I can tell though, the 12 makes a better street solution.
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Soundman
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Bomber,
You mentioned a 455 GTO for torque. I thought you would dig this.
Sorry to get off topic

Bob's goat 2

Seems alot of Buellers have similar interest.

Soundman.......

edited by soundman on May 06, 2004
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Mikej
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The sound you just heard was Bomber falling off his chair onto the floor.
Nice car!
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Tucsonxb9s
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Here's the other thing to consider...cash. If price is a concern, the choice is obvious, get the 9. If price isn't a concern it does make it more difficult. My thinking is, for the price of the 12 you can get a 9, add the race ecm, K&N, 12 airbox, and the pipe of your choice and still have money left over...plus you won't get those silly orange wheels!

Wycked & M1 and everyone else with a 12, I'm just kidding!
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Soundman
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks Mike,
I hope Bomber is ok.
It's a good thing the rust does'nt show up in the picture. I think it is the only vehicle I own that actually runs.
Back on topic.......
GO FOR THE 12, Torque it baby!!

Soundman......
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Brian I will remember that when I clean your drool off my rims next time...
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Boomerm2
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Soundman - Sweet Goat!

My friend has a '65 with a 389 and the Tri-power manifold. It's an awsome car.
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Dyna
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

M1 Hal's is using the 12 motor now to the best my knowledge

And exactly how many factory parts are left in it?
Wouldnt make a difference to a race team if they started with a 9 or a 12 since they are going to 1350cc's or more anyways.
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Darthane
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jwz7,

There's only one person who can really answer that question, and that's you. You'll find people here who ride and love both engines. One is not better than the other - it's personal preference. FWIW, I would like someday to go with Erik Buell's setup (I think Wycked also has both of these) - a XB9R and a XB12S.

Without sinking a lot of money into it, the 12 makes more power, hands down. There's no replacement for displacement, as they say.

However, I recommend you find yourself a willing dealer and ride the following - XB9R, XB9S, XB12R, and XB12S - then pick whichever one tickles your fancy the most.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Had Darthane, Charlieboy now has my 9. The taxman slapeth hard...
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Darthane
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Doh! That sucks.

I'm considering a third bike when I get back from Japan. I know a guy who's looking to get rid of a '98 S1WL and another looking to offload his '99 R6, both for about the same price. Decisions, decisions...perhaps the clincher will be which one I can hide from my girl longer...LOL...I don't think she'd be happy I spent the Hawaii money on another motorcycle!
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Bigj
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The 9 is a better engine.
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey Darthane...I know where there is a low mileage '03 ZX6RR for sale.....
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Darthane
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Heh...I'd love the S1WL, but I'm seriously considering the 600cc. -=shrugs=- Just be different from the Buells.

...yeah, but for how much?
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

heh...$6000 but for you I would give you the badweb discount so say $5400 : D
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Darthane
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 11:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, don't hold your breath - that's about $2000 more than I'm looking to pay.

...so what was this thread about again, anyways? Oh, yeah - my bike can beat up your bike.

I love my XB9R. You go have fun, now, ya hear?
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