| Author | Message | ||
     Lemonchili_x1 |
"For a motorcycle/minicycle to be approved, the manufacturer must apply to the AMA, register the machine’s specifications, provide photographs and prove that 100 identical, completed machines of the same model are available for sale to the general public at multiple dealer showrooms throughout all six AMA regions. AMA staff will verify production requirements." Where is this from? I couldn't find it in the AMA tech rules. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I thought this thread was about the S1000RR. World Superbike. Not AMA. | ||
| Blake |
The original post displaying the quoted "rules" is talking about the 1125RR. The author may be confused. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"What makes more sense, starting a new bike racing program in a closer to stock national series and progressing from there, or spending millions to jump straight into World Superbike? The folks at BMW Motorcycle are learning a hard lesson." They had the balls to try it. Stepped up to the majors. Got a few top 10's and are learning with the big boys. Maybe Buell hands out less tire pressure gauges, back packs, laptop bags and locks.......dumps the gimmicky marketing BS, which has to cost millions....and heads out on the road to compete with little to no contorversy? Just an idea. I'd be happy to see them field a Factory AMA team to start. NO REASON NOT TO IF THEY WANTED IT BAD ENOUGH. Let's also not forget that Buell is a little more than 200 hard working people...they're owned by Harley. That gives them 9000 more employees to help them out. Lemon...page 87 of the ama regs. "Chinashop read this article with the head guy from AMA. Right from the horses mouth and proves your line of reasoning is wrong." Actually you just showed that I was right....he admitted to bending regs to allow this bike in. The AMA turned down EB's original parts list and he admits that the price tag at 39k was too much in his opinion....but they had to find a way to allow this thing in to allow the sport to grow. He even went on about how they should have changed the rules BEFORE allowing it in. Either way you look at it, Buell got the rules changed and are racing in the AMA. (Message edited by Buellinachinashop on August 03, 2009) | ||
| Jaimec |
And Blake... I NEVER said Buell paid off DMG for the rules changes. Go ahead and search BadWeb. I know the size of the company and it would be a ludicrous assertion. However, DMG is an AMERICAN company, and they want to increase the popularity of the sport. No better way to do that than to get increased participation from an AMERICAN company. Since Harley isn't about to put a CVO Ultra on the grid at any time soon (nor is Victory about to put a Hammer there) then DMG is going to bend over backwards to put Buells on the grid. Marketing, pure and simple. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
I'll be interested to see how BMW are doing this time next year in WSBK. I think it's impressive that they've gone straight to WSBK with a new team and a new bike. Aprilia are doing pretty well in the first year of the RSV4, but they will have some experience from the RSV1000. I'll also be interested to see how 1125RR's are doing 12 months from now, and the KTM RC8R's in the German championship. In a year or two it's possible there could be quite a few manufacturers, maybe as many as 6 or 7, in both WSBK and national championships, which would be very cool  . Note Buell isn't the only manufacturer to be given "special allowance" by the AMA for parts not normally allowed by the Superbike rules. Does anyone know if it's possible to buy an S1000RR or RSV4 yet? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
So let me get this straight, DMG wants to increase viewership and attendance so badly that it unfairly changed the rules to get Buell, an American company, into the mix at the cost of pissing off fans resulting in decreased viewership and attendance? And then, at the peak of this viewership rebellion, allowed a "cheater bike" on top of it all? Would seem to be self defeating, wouldn't it? Could a better characterization be that they wanted to create a racing outlet that encompassed more than just IL4 engine configurations? Why is no one complaining about Aprilia? Could it be because they aren't winning? How much of a CC advantage would you have to spot me if I wanted to race a super single? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Fat, its pretty obvious they want an American bike in American Motorcycle Association events. Did they change the rules to fit them in? I'd say so. | ||
| Spatten1 |
So let me get this straight, DMG wants to increase viewership and attendance so badly that it unfairly changed the rules to get Buell, an American company, into the mix at the cost of pissing off fans resulting in decreased viewership and attendance? You do get it, I was starting to wonder. It worked great in Pro Stock. I think they expect the same results in Sportbike. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Jeremy, AMA has a long history of cutting Harley a break. Dirt track rules to keep XRs the only competitive bikes. Superbikes that were only homologated in Poland. Dragbikes that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Buell and Harley other than stickers. Formula extreme bikes that melted the stock cases and cast new ones out of the same material. The behavior that you don't believe would be productive is SOP and has a long history. | ||
| Rfischer |
"Is it possible to buy a S1000R or RSV4 yet?" No. Tho' BMW will let you fax in a pre-order for delivery in '10. Nothing yet from Aprilia. | ||
| Court |
I confess that I feel somewhat like an idiot . . . I've never seen that BMW, know nearly nothing about it and, who knows why, have no desire to even look for information. I'm an excitement junkie. You know . . . pilot, SCUBA, sports all that stuff and I have to confess that racing has never excited me more than it has this year. I don't follow racing. If Scott Russell and Matt Mladin walked up right now I couldn't tell you which one was which. But somehow I've been caught up in the excitement that DMG has created this year. Bend the rules? I just don't know . . . but if they did, it doesn't seem to bother any of the racers or teams. I mean these guys are so committed to following and acting on what they believe to be right that a couple of them, citing safety, abstained from racing in Topeka. I'm challenged to believe that if they had any concern rising beyond the most rudimentary threshold that they would have expressed it. The only concerns I've seen are in internet chat rooms from, pardon me here, many folks with the fewest facts. Even in view of interviews, press releases and the welcome and warm congratulations of fellow competitors it's tough to build a "Buell is cheating" case anyone would accept. I'm thrilled to see Buell #1 in the points standing, again seeing no protests from other riders beyond "man that thing is fast" and excited to see where Buell is going. I've also enjoyed watching my wife watch the racing. She's leaping and hollering, screaming and a waving . . . last night I asked about dinner was told to "get my own. . . Danny's got 7 laps to go". Whatever Buell is working works on both avid motorcyclists and tiny Wall Street execs. | ||
| Blake |
How is it that here on a Buell enthusiasts forum, some insist on turning a thread about the new beemer superbike around into attacking Buell and or AMA Pro Racing, or motorcycle racing in America in general? WTF is your problem? Really! I want to know! I make a simple statement, my opinion about the lack of success of the BMW racing machine in WSBK, and point out the significant waivers that FIM granted it so that it could race from the start of the season, and some of you turn it into yet another @!#$^% tirade against Buell and American motorcycle racing. WTF? I agree with 2kxr...
and I would add, not Buell. (Message edited by blake on August 03, 2009) | ||
| Spatten1 |
I don't follow racing. If Scott Russell and Matt Mladin walked up right now I couldn't tell you which one was which. But somehow I've been caught up in the excitement that DMG has created this year. If there are enough people like you and your wife to more than compensate for the long-time fans that aren't watching, it is the right formula for the series owners. (I have two autographed pictures of Scott Russell on the wall behind me as I type.) I just don't know . . . but if they did, it doesn't seem to bother any of the racers or teams. That is not an accurate statement. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake, you are correct. I'm bowing out of this unproductive distraction from the topic. | ||
| Court |
I have an autographed helmet that Scott sent me as a favor but gads that's been years ago. If any of the racers or teams are bothered . . . well, they are damn quiet about it. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I have an autographed helmet that Scott sent me as a favor but gads that's been years ago. That would be prominently displayed in my abode. Is it one of the indian chief feather head dress paint jobs? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"well, they are damn quiet about it." Honda America left its two seats on the AMA board. Maybe they left too quietly for you to hear them? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Staying out.....staying out....staying out.... | ||
| Court |
>>>Is it one of the indian chief feather head dress paint jobs? No . . it was the PARKWAY BLUE with gold iridium visor "Barney" helmet. P.S. - with matching purple . . . WWW.BADWEATHERBIKERS.COM shade band. (Message edited by court on August 03, 2009) | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
As an outsider/foreigner I've been suprised a few times by U.S. racing series changing/bending rules to allow particular machines, both on two wheels and four. My impression has been for a long time that U.S. racing promoters seem to put as much importance, if not more, on the "it's a show" aspect of racing as the technical aspects of racing. I'm not saying that's wrong, just different priorities, and it's just my impression. The entertainment aspect has become much more important in MotoGP and WSBK in the last 10-15 years. Back to the Beemer: "I thought WSBK rules were 250 bikes before the start of the season and 1000 before mid year for a new bike. They have been in production since February." It's 250 for a "subsequent homologation", 125 for a "first time homologation". 2.9.2.1 FIRST TIME APPLICATION FOR HOMOLOGATION A manufacturer requesting a homologation for the very first time in its existence must follow the procedure below. • The manufacturer must have produced at least a quantity of 125 motorcycles prior to the homologation inspection. The motorcycle must be on sale to the public at that time. • The minimum quantity of 500 units must be reached by the end of September of the current year. • The minimum quantity of 1000 units must be reached by the end of December of the current year. • From 2010 onwards the minimum quantity will be 3000 units. • All motorcycles must be identical to the model to be homologated with the same specifications. • Proof of production quantities must be provided by certified documentation as stated in Article 2.9.2. • The FIM will withdraw the homologation if these rules are not respected. Also: Eligibility requirements • Motorcycles must have a valid international homologation for road use or a national homologation for road use obtained in one of the signatory countries of the 1968 Vienna Convention. • The motorcycles must represent machines of mass production. • The motorcycles must be of current production. • The motorcycles are to be sold for every day use. • At the time of the FIM inspection for homologation, the motorcycles must be completely equipped with all road-using equipment. (e.g. full lighting equipment). • Only the original manufacturer may present the motorcycle for homologation. • The manufacturer must be a holder of an FIM licence for manufacturers. • If the motorcycle is presented with an engine from a motorcycle manufacturer different from the manufacturer requesting the homologation, a permission or commercial agreement must be presented at the time of the homologation request. • The motorcycle must have a manufacturer's certificate of origin. Me thinks BMW are bending the rules on the above, however from another clause: • In case of not achieved minimum production numbers in the prescribed time-limit, all the points counting towards the Manufacturers’ Championship in the current year will be withdrawn and further penalties may also be imposed. (Message edited by lemonchili_x1 on August 03, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Can you guess who supported the impending rules change upping the quantity requirement to 3,000? Shameful. Corrupt. If not corruption, then what other possible reason is there for increasing the homologation requirement from 1000 to 3000 production units? I'm surprised that Ducati agreed to that new rule. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I just took a K1300S for a burn. 175hp. Goes like a Hyabusa - power shifter, electronic suspension adjustment and traction control AND blue tooth tire valves that display air pressure on the dash. Awesome bike. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"...power shifter, electronic suspension adjustment and traction control AND blue tooth tire valves that display air pressure on the dash. " But does it make coffee? Sounds like an awesome bike to ride, but I bet it's a pig to work on. It looks *enormous*, like the USS Nimitz, but longer  | ||
| Danger_dave |
The traction control apparently can vary tyre pressures on the fly. One lump or twooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
" ...then what other possible reason is there for increasing the homologation requirement from 1000 to 3000 production units?" To lower costs? If BMW or Honda want to implement a major change they have to balance the cost of producing 3000 units and selling them all. (Maybe that's why BMW wanted to get on the track this year before they finalise production for 3000 units next year?) While I doubt Ducati are happy about it, WSBK minimum production numbers have steadily been increased over the years. I believe up to the mid '90's all manufacturers had to manufacture only 150 units, resulting in the RC30, the OW01, the ZX7RR and various Ducati SP's based on the 851 then the 916. I think at some stage the number for the big four Japanese manufacturers was increased to 500, but that didn't stop the production of the R7 and RC45. Ducati and other small manufacturers still only had to make 150, resulting in the 996SPS, 996R and later the 999R. The minimum of 1000 units for ALL manufacturers first applied in 2008. While it would be easier for Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawaski/BMW to do a run of 3000 bikes, I doubt any of them are happy about it. I hope it will mean that if any of the manufacturers make a homologation special, ala 1098R, the price won't be sky high and some will end up on the street instead of hidden away in collections and never ridden. | ||
| Jaimec |
Back on topic: The S1000RR is an interesting development for BMW. BMW's specialty has been "endurance racing" for the past several decades. That includes a win at the Daytona 200 by Reg Pridmore, as well as the Paris Dakar. As far as I know, this is the first time they've jumped (with both feet) into balls-to-the-wall racing on the two-wheeled front. Not my cup of tea, though. I use my motorcycles for everyday transportation. Although I do enjoy an occasional foray onto the track and enjoy tearing up a backroad or two, my primary use for a motorcycle is TRANSPORTATION. The fact that Buell has never competed on the world stage in WSBK or MotoGP means NOTHING to me, and meant nothing in my purchase decision. I bought the Buells I've owned because they were intelligently designed to be street bikes FIRST and track weapons second. I've sat on a lot of sportbikes from other manufacturers and I've ridden most of them. If they weren't painful when first settling in, they soon became painful to ride after only a few dozen miles. Nice to look at, but no way would they find a home in my garage. I appreciate BMW and Buell for the bikes they make... bikes meant to be RIDDEN and enjoyed... not as a compensation device for other perceived "deficiencies." The S1000RR breaks that mold for BMW. Heck, even the HP2 Sport would make a practical everyday bike if it weren't so damned expensive! And by the way, from what I understand, the HP2 Sport, a 1200cc motorcycle, is eligible for Daytona Sportbike. I suppose if someone actually ENTERED one of those enormous beasts in the series, maybe the press would find something else to bitch about? To me, DMG is a joke. They have no idea how to run a motorcycle racing series and the AMA series is almost a laughing stock these days. That circus at Laguna didn't help matters. When Erik decides to build a REAL Superbike... an 1199cc version of the current bike that can run with the Ducati and the four cylinder 1000s I'll start paying attention. I won't BUY the bike though, unless it is also comfortable and practical as an everyday ride. I wonder how many EXISTING Buell customers feel the same way? Of course, a true championship winning Superbike would definitely expand Buell's customer base (and not just the few with a racing license who can buy the 1125RR either). But I'm wandering off topic again. | ||
| Court |
>>>BMW's specialty has been "endurance racing" Which is why having all the BMW products drop out of the last Iron Butt was such a blow. By the way, I read that "ALL the BMW's dropped out with mechanical maladies". I do not know if it's true, I read it on an Iron Butt site. Awesome bike for what? What the hell do you do with 170HP? My riding partner has a Superbusa. He was commuting on it daily and finally bought a KTM Duke and a DR-Z400 for the daily ride and keeps the Suzuki for touring . . . but even for touring . . . I have no idea what he does with that power. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
AMA Pro homologated bikes for 2009: http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/RR_ApprovedMoto rcycles.pdf "What the hell do you do with 170HP?" The older I get, the more I realise that somewhere around 100hp is about perfect for me... But if Buell released a narrow focus "Superbike" for the street, it would be tempting... | ||
| Spatten1 |
"What the hell do you do with 170HP?" Please don't take this the wrong way, but that is an old man's question. If you were still 25, you'd know exactly what to do with 170 HP. When I was in my late 20's I was riding a ZX11 and found plenty of opportunities to run it WFO. I took the ZX11 to a Buell demo ride and tried a White Lightning and nearly vomited due to the lack of power. In my late 30's I switched to Buell as I wanted a totally different riding experience, and no longer craved high horsepower. I just wanted something with a bit of soul that still handled well and was not too heavy. My X1 was not so well put together, but the XB hit the spot perfectly. Getting back to the topic, BMW is trying to hit that younger market, and big HP is certainly a good way to establish a reputation, which should eventually be followed by a mass-market Asian manufactured 600, where the volume and $ can be made. Beemer has been a joke to young performance minded riders for a long time with long wheel bases and heavy machines. Now they are doing what it takes to blow the minds of the performance set and really change that rep. |
