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Rocketman
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I was wondering if circlips differ in size between manufacturers of piston products. Are all circlips of a certain wire gauge or do they differ between manufacturers? Specifically Buell \ HD \ aftermarket?

Perhaps someone could tell me if a stock Buell circlip is the same wire gauge as a Wiseco circlip?


Digital verniers anyone?

TIA, Rocket




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Bomber
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket

While I don't have my engine apart at present, I can answer at least part of your question -- circlips are, in fact, different from manufacturer to manufacturer, even if it's for the same engine application . . . . ie, the chances of a Wiseco clip being the same gauge and dia as an HS item for the same engine is pretty small
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Jrh
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 09:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket...for what it's worth...i just pulled a clip out of a Buell stock T-storm piston(about 350 miles of use on it)and get .060".I checked 4 brand new clips from JE T-storm pistons,all were .050".Also the JE clip package has a part # printed on it but under it is printed(.782-.793)I might be completely off but i wonder if that's a range of cir-clip diameter that company uses these particular clips in.So maybe there's even a "preload tension"to be concerned with.
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Jrh
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Something else maybe interesting.When i had a set of stock bore JE t-storm pistons fitted in a set of S+S cylinders(the cyl came undersized so the pistons could be fitted,machined precisely),for reasons i won't get into,i ended up not using the JE,ordered a set of stock bore Wiseco t-storm hoping they would be the same exact size as the JE.The Wiseco,s were .003 too loose in the same cylinders and could'nt be used,eventually we re-bored and used .010"over Wisecos.
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Hoser
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sean :
What Jrh said , .060" for a stock wrist pin retaining ring , I have a bag of them sitting in front of me . Wiseco ret. rings , I have some of those too , .059" , the diameter is smaller on the Wiseco clips too .896" , stock is .916". Wiseco part # CW20 for replacements.

I have some Wiseco T storm pistons +.020" and cylinders fitted to these pistons , as well as a Cometic top end gasket kit on ebay .ca right now , if anyone is intested , the cylinders are the 2001 and up 1200 XL version with machined fin edges , these cylinders are an improved / updated version of earlier cylinders which have been known to have liners that separate from the cast aluminum and do not stay round or straight.

For anyone that is interested , go to ebay.ca and do a search for item # 2463867691

Here's a pic of them...............

PistonKit
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Rocketman
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks kindly all. I'm working on a theory at the moment and need a little more info.

Jeff you can help me greatly by doing me a huge favour as it seems the info I require is sat right in front of you.

If possible could you install a Wiseco circlip into one of those Wiseco pistons and let me know how much the clip sits up out of its retaining groove? A nice quality close up pic would be nice too. Please, ta, thanks man!!

You know Jeff, I was saving my pocket money for new Milleniums. Ebay you say? Hmm, better have a look.

Thanks again fellas, Rocket
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Hoser
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'd rather not sacrifice a clip . I'll just go out in the workshop and get a piston that is sitting there with the clip still in one side ..................................................

Okay , Im back

I.D. of wrist pin bore = .793"
I.D. of installed clip = .750"

A difference of .043" , half of that is .0215"

Those cylinders / pistons on ebay may not sell ,no bids yet , there is no reserve either.

I just tried my little cheapo digital camera , the batteries are dead , it EAT'S batteries !! , I'll try tomorrow with fresh batteries.


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Rocketman
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jeff, are the above measurements taken from a Wiseco piston and clip? If so what are they doing sat in your workshop? Enquiring minds need to know!

To clarify, are you saying the exposed portion of the clip sits a shade over 20 thou out of the groove? By this I am referring to the part of the clip that would keep the wrist pin in place if it were to move sideways.

I checked your Ebay listing. The Wiseco's I'm replacing are flat topped so there'd be a compression issue, squish issue too at +20.

Whadya mean there's no reserve? Starting bid $600 <grin>

Thanks again

Rocket

edited by rocketman on March 04, 2004
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Hoser
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Sean :

The piston is a Wiseco , I have a new standard set , a used standard set , and those + .020" ones, all thunderstorm. The used ones are out of one of my own engines , it had developed a " strange sound " , the rods had a little too much side clearance , one wrist pin bushing was at the service wear limit , so I decided to freshen it up. I'm changing to an S1 crank , tomorrow I plan on balancing and trueing the crank so assembly can begin. Those used standard pistons , I had difficulty removing the pin on one of them , a ridge of aluminum was preventing the pin from coming out , I had to carve the ridge away , a retaining ring probably would not stay put anymore , so I'm not using those pistons. I have seen this many times on a variety of Harley motors , it's a result of "tolerance stack up" , rods slopping around , the wrist pin can move axially and pounds the retaining ring against it's groove.

Yes the exposed portion of the clip sits a shade over .020" above the groove.

I decided to not put a reserve on those parts , thats the price , one bid would get them , $ 600.00 Canuck dollars is a fair price for what is there , and if no one buys them , the racer guys I help eventually will grenade something and need them .

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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jeff, that is what has happened in my motor. The wrist pin on the rear cylinder has moved axially to the point where it has come into contact with the clip. Here's what's bugging me. According to the invoice written up at time of warranty repair, new Wiseco clips were fitted. This has been done somewhat clumsily with slight markings evident on both sides of each piston. These marks suggest new clips were used. Here's the good part. The clips stick out of the groove by only a few thou. I've not measured yet but I'd guess no more than 5. The wrist pin has worn a sizable tapered hole to the inside of the piston wrist pin hole leading to the wrist pin getting past the circlip. The wrist pin traveled axially enough to allow it to fall out of the opposite side of the piston wrist pin hole thus leading to a snapped S&S rod.

Wiseco Piston
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 08:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

(tangent alert) Hoser, just go to your local electronics store and pick up a cheap recharger and a set of NiMh batteries. You should be able to get the charger and the batteries for $30 or less. The Rayovac charger is the one you will probably find, and it charges slow but is actually quite nice.

Digital cameras draw huge amounts of currents, and just crush anything but NiMh or LiIon. All the headaches of NiCad are gone with NiMh.

We now return you to this most enlightening discussion about pistons.

Rocket... sorry about your engine man... makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it : (
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Swampy
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What happened to that piston? Did the wrist pin seize?
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Hoser
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That's nasty !! , I almost want to start a "show and tell" , I have pictures and samples of similar or worse rubble . Stuff like that is collectable , and can be used to build a "wall of shame" display . Some one should start a thread where dealership staff can "confess" , tell the truth , spill their guts ,share thoughs about how things "really " happen . Many here would be surprised to know what really happens .
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Hoser
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bill: Thank's for the tip !

Rocket: was there any warning prior to failure ? or did it happen in a split second at some ungodly RPM .
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

From your description Rocket it sounds as if the wristpin itself was undersized. Both in lenght and diameter.
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well we are 110% certain what caused the failure. When I say 'we', I am referring to the gentleman who's rebuilding the crank for me.

The circlip was the cause of failure. The clip sits a shade over 6 thou proud of the groove. Worse still, it is not even tight in the groove. At first glance it appears so but when you prod at it one can clearly see there is some sideways movement of the clip.

The Wiseco wrist pins have quite a defined taper on the ends. Due to axial movement of the wrist pin the tapered end has hammered at the circlip pushing it further into the circlip groove. Eventually the wrist pin has got past the clip.

Was there any warning? Yes there was. I was out riding with a mate on a Ducati. We were heading for Squires Coffee Bar about 2 miles out of Sherburn in Elmet. Just out of the village I heard a knocking noise so I stopped immediately. My friend asked me what it sounded like. "Big end" was my reply "but it can't be that she's got an S&S crank in her", so I rode about a mile to Squires were I spent the rest of the afternoon and late into the evening removing primary covers drive pulley covers and lord knows what else in an effort to find something. Later that evening I decided to ride her home. I was pretty convinced the crank was not the problem but if indeed the big end bearing had failed my experience of such matters told me it would get me home, all be it noisily. I kicked her into top as quick as would allow and proceeded at about tickover speed. I got about 3 miles from Squires when she locked up.

No worries. I've got the new cases, bearings, oil pump and more. My gentleman crank builder is heading to Huntingdon Beach next week and he's picking up a set of new S&S rods and pin for me whilst he's over there. Just need a new set of Milleniums now. Seems like a good time to give her a capacity increase.

Thanks all.

Rocket

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Jb2
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 08:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket,

Can I have your trashed piston for my collection? : )

JB2
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Vr1203
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My rear cylinder was ruined by a lost wrist pin clip . The piston was melted in the groove area. The wrist pin machined a rather large groove in the cylinder.
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Easyflier
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Have Teflon (Delrin?) buttons fallen out of favor?

It's been almost 30 years since I hopped up a V-twin but I used the buttons to keep the wrist pins in. They never failed and created the kind of damage that Rocket experienced.

I know that there have been a lot of advancements over the years that I'm unaware of so if it's a stupid question please be gentle explaining it to me. : )
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Hoser
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Easy :

S&S sells the teflon buttons , but to the best of my knowledge , they only fit pistons with a full skirt , these Wiseco pistons would not support the use of buttons. I built a Shovelhead stroker not long ago ( 5" stroke /yikes ! ) and used S&S buttons with the pistons in that engine.

I'm gonna gather up some photo's and snap a few more of busted shit , so we can collectively display a " Gallery of crap " , I've seen enough of it over the years , that I have become "acclimatized" , many of the mechanics out there who have done a number of "autopsies" on piled up engines and transmissions find humor in it. In a large shop when a a pair of heads are removed , revealing a meltdown , the guffawing can be deafening !
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Easyflier
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hoser,

Thanks, I wondered about that because they sure seemed like the way to go to me. Never dawned on me that they would not work with certain types of pistons. Apparently my old stroker used full skirted pistons too. I know I sure appreciated not having to install those damn circlips.
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S2pengy
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Some pistons (Jahns) even require 2 circlips on each side.. You talk about a pain to remove.....
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Reepicheep
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Please do Hoser, I would like to see some. There is something about seeing a mangled blown engine that speaks of the harnessing of power and tension that is motorcycling.
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Rocketman
Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jim, consider it yours once I've finished using it for reference etc.

So where's my compilation CD mate? You're seriously in fear of receiving Vol 2 of Rocket's Rock Favourites beforehand unless you hurry up <grin>

Rocket
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1320
Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The Axtell kits (JE Pistons) all come with teflon buttons...
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Jb2
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket,

You're closer to getting that disc than you know. Hope you like. I'll be lookin' for the piston sometime in the next year or so. There's a space reserved on the shelf when you're ready to let it go. (There's also a slot in the file cab for your latest compilation.) : )

Ridin' Red, JB2
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Phillyblast
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket - free tunes
full disclaimer - it's all former or current band-mates and I played on some of the tunes.
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Rocketman
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Tunes dudes? This is my thread , now get back on topic, ya hear!!!!!

The replacement S&S rod and pin set are ordered. My friend collects them in the next few days when he visits Huntingdon Beach. The exchange rate is that great they're costing a measly £200. No tax. No shipping. My Buell luck is clearly changing - at last.

Rocket
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Phillyblast
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Geez Rocket you brought it up : ) So back on topic - teflon or delrin buttons can't be used on anything but full-skirted pistons? Or does it just vary depending on the application?
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Steveshakeshaft
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'd be interested to know where to get the buttons from please?

Steve.
steve_s@ukbeg.com
www.ukbeg.com
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

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Rocketman
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

S&S gave me a phone number for a shop in Huntingdon Beach. Huntingdon Beach is where Pete, the chap who's taking care of the S&S crank for me, has family. Pete was due a visit in March so I contacted a shop called American Rider and spoke with a guy called Teaspoon. Teaspoon ordered the rods from S&S on the strength of my phone call. I'd told him to expect an Englishman calling in a couple of weeks and he'd pay in cash when he got there.

Pete arrived back in England last week with my new rods.

Here's Pete and look what he has in his reach. This man is clever.

Pete

Life's good today.

Rocket
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