| Author |
Message |
    
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 10:18 pm: | 
|
I don't see a vast difference. What if you made the simple and realistic substitution that they were breeding dogs instead of just owning one? What then?
Kids, dogs, and pools are consistent with the zoning for the property. You may not like kids, dogs, or pools, but you'd lose in about 23 seconds in court.
If they were breeding dogs, they would be in violation of property zoning.
But, YES, you hit the nail on the head.
There was a community not far from me that was making local headlines because Wal-Mart wanted to build a store, but locals were dead set on blocking them from coming in. Wal-Mart was planning on buying an apporiopriately zoned commercial plot. My opinion is the same now as it was then - If you don't want Wal-Mart to build a store, then YOU buy the property before they do.
So if I want to build a dump or junk yard next to your house and YOU can't afford to buy the land to keep me from buying it, you're ok with that?
What do you think your home value would be the day after I announced my intentions for MY property? Do you think the bank would forgive the difference in property value between what you owe and what the property is now worth?
Correct - but noise is noise, no?
Noise consistent with zoned home usage is different that the noise produced by a commercial venture. Part of the reason there is a requirement for different zoning based upon use.
Now if you chose to work on your Harley at 2:00 in the morning, even though it's consistent with home use, you'd probably be compelled to cease and desist by the authorities.
I suspect they would as well - but - what if I wanted to put up a wood fence and my neighbor was some deforestation nut and it offended them?
He'd be SOL.
Seriously? I can put any muffler on any engine - and you know that as well as I do. ATVs and dirtbikes can be PLENTY loud, and sport bikes can be reasonably quiet. I don't think this argument can be made without knowing the particular machines in question.
A 250-650cc single running on a wooded lot (see surrounding land in track picture) isn't going to put out anywhere close to the same sound as a 1000cc on an open track and full song.
You really think he would require EVERY rider on his course to run only stock exhaust? Do YOU only run stock exhaust?
Most track enthusiasts aren't running stock machines. I'd bet the majority of the 100+ bikes in his garage aren't running stock exhaust or stock states of tune.
But - as with MANY things with government regulation - where does it stop? Where I live, dirt track racing is pretty big, and lots of people have race cars that get worked on - which means they get run in these garages, located around other homes. Should neighbors dictate hobbies?
I just see the possibility of this getting pushed way too far.
I'm not a big fan of more government regulation (as you know).
This isn't a matter of government regulations. This is a matter of balancing the property rights of individual citizens. There is no real regulation here.
I don't really worry about what my neighbors are doing. What they do in their house is their business. My next door neighbor's biological mother sends her pot in the mail. While I'm not a pot smoker and view it as illegal, I don't see that it is my responsibility to turn her in.
The problem is that most people don't operate with the common sense God gave a screw driver. I care about my neighbors. I look in on them to make sure they have what they need. I help them carry stuff in or out if they need it. I'd loan my car to any of my neighbors any time. The problem is that we can not assume that all neighbors will operate with the same level of concern we do. If you have a neighbor who is a dick, what do you do? What is your recourse. If they have the right to do whatever whenever, you either have to take it or you have to seek outside mediation. It isn't about maintaining the lives of others. It's about ensuring that what your neighbor views a reasonable and normal doesn't infringe upon you.
In the absence of any clear law or regulation, your recourse is as is outlined in this story.
I love motorcycles and would LOVE to live next to a track that I could use anytime I wanted. Not everyone would.
If this guy were a stand up guy, it wouldn't have come to this. I suspect that he took the "it's my property, I'll do with it what I want" attitude and it landed him in court. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 11:27 pm: |
|
If I were in his neighborhood, I would vote to approve it.....with restrictions that would be clear and carry fines. The local government could set it up as long as it didn't violate laws or ordinances.
Rulings could say something like it may be allowable with the following type of limits; to have time constraints, blocked out days(like holidays, Sunday's), limited noise out-put, limited number of participants and or bikes, no grandstands or bleachers, no concessions, no fees charged, no profits gained from audio and video production, proof of insurance, no signs, no public restrooms, home septic only, donations and fees paid to local fire and emergency services, no commercial zoning, listed with government agencies as private use only.
Things can be worked out, it is just a matter of getting the four parties involved to work together. Those would be local government, land owner, opposition, and legal people. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:15 am: |
|
I haven't heard one person on here talk about ZONING!! there are land use zoning laws in most counties in most states. If it is a light agriculltural and residential, then a even private racetrack can be restricted under some zoning laws.. Under some of the peoples argument here, i could buy some land, build a trash transfer station and screw all my neighbors for the simple fact it was my land and i could do with it what i wanted. I wouldn't want someone amking an ass load of noise if i spent a ton of money to have peace and quiet in the country in my dream home. On the other hand i would use common sense and try not to piss off others around me if was to build a track around my field. It is common respect! Maybe it is also common sense.Idon't for sure,but it seems like both are in short supply these days |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:18 am: |
|
Ahem. Two posts up.  |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:28 am: |
|
i see that now!! i tend not to read long ranting posts. Sorry
After reading it i do agree with what your saying
(Message edited by tom_b on June 29, 2009) |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:30 am: |
|
One post up even! |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:41 am: |
|
Growning up we used to mud bog in the fallow fields. The farmer let us use them, let us run circles in our trucks out there, had bon fires, way too much drinking, and of course alot of tailgaten fun.
The neighbors sued. A whole generation of the town grew up not knowing about the Mud Bog Kegger parties.... Its sad really. You know there aint anything else to do out in the middle of nowhere.
He got even with them by getting FAA certification to use the fallow fields for rough terrain landing practice. Gawud the whiners love it when the big green Hueys come in for touch and gos.
If you ever out Wild Rose Prairie way and see the Chinooks comin in, you found our ould stompin grounds. |
Toona
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 09:00 am: |
|
There is a difference between using a garage for it's intended purpose and exceeding property use. If you were attempting to run a commercial mechanic's shop out of your garage, your neighbors would have the grounds to seek injunction.
I'm disagreeing with you on this one Ft.
I'll preface my disagreement with the fact that the town I live in doesn't have zoning.
That said, I bought a COMMERCIAL building that was vacant for 3 years. It is located on one of the main roads in town, with a large furniture warehouse 4 blocks up the road from my shop (read LOTS of trucks 18 wheelers etc) traveling on said road.
My "neighbor" across the street (same side of the road as me) is a GOOFBALL and makes it as hard on me as he can. The street we share is one block long and a dead end. My kids ride a 90cc 4 wheeler at the back of my property. I can't tell you how many times he has called the police, I've lost count.
I have a tenant that rents off of me that does V-Twin repairs. He complains about his customers coming and going, (remember he lives on one of the main streets in town). He complains when the MC customers park at the end of the dead end street to unload bikes off a trailer (past his property line). It is coming to the point where the next time my "neighbor" complains, I will be calling the police and file a harassment charge against the "neighbor".
My "neighbor" did have the ability to purchase my building and chose NOT TO. I did. I have now added tax dollars to the local revenue, employ people - so does the MC shop. I'm in the process of remodeling the building. I keep the grass mowed, side walks shoveled when it snows etc.
I can't put one tire on his gravel driveway without him complaining, but yet when it comes time for him to park his camper trailer, he HAS TO drive across my property to be able to park it. But he thinks that's okay. Can you say double standard?
My "neighbor" has no grounds for a legal injunction against myself or my tenant. What we do is legal. Where we do it is legal. He is just a hard headed jerk that just doesn't like having us there and does his best to make us miserable. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 09:24 am: |
|
There is nothing to prevent someone from calling the cops even when no crime has been committed.
I'm assuming that there has been no action taken against you by the local government, correct?
You are operating a commercial build in accordance with the zoning for commercial property.
You can't fix crazy.
Now if you had bought a lot in a residential neighborhood and put up a commercial building and began operating commercial activities in an area not zoned commercial. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 09:47 am: |
|
If they were breeding dogs, they would be in violation of property zoning.
How so?
And how is a private racetrack not in accordance with zoning? We don't know the sepcific laws, but how can something like a paved surface completely change the use? People buy tracts of land for ATVs and no one has an issue with it - why is this THAT different?
So if I want to build a dump or junk yard next to your house and YOU can't afford to buy the land to keep me from buying it, you're ok with that?
If the property next to mine was zoned to accomodate as such, who am I to tell the next owner what he can and can't do with it? This would be the same thing as "What if someone bought the empty residential lot next to yours and put up a house". Who am I to say they can't?
Noise consistent with zoned home usage is different that the noise produced by a commercial venture. Part of the reason there is a requirement for different zoning based upon use.
That's not the point of my question. I have three bikes. I work on them a lot. The work is consistant with what would be found at a commercial shop, but it's not - they're my private vehicles. To someone who didn't know any better, it could look like a commercial venture. Should that be enough to stop me?
And yes, 2am is silly. I'm not trying to advocate I can do whatever, whenever with no regards to others - but lines needs to be drawn.
A 250-650cc single running on a wooded lot (see surrounding land in track picture) isn't going to put out anywhere close to the same sound as a 1000cc on an open track and full song.
You really think he would require EVERY rider on his course to run only stock exhaust? Do YOU only run stock exhaust?
Most track enthusiasts aren't running stock machines. I'd bet the majority of the 100+ bikes in his garage aren't running stock exhaust or stock states of tune.
Again, how do you know this is some 1000cc superbike? All that was mentioned was "Italian Sport Bikes" - maybe this guy is into vintage MVs, and everything is a 500cc single? Maybe those dirtbikes are 250 2-strokes? You can't know the answer to that.
My Buell runs the stock exhaust. My 1964 Harley will by the time the resto is done. The Ninja 250 runs the stock exhaust.
I also don't think we can assume that him and all of his buddies are going to be running full track-spec machines. If that's what they had, they'd probably be actually racing them and not playing around in his backyard. I would bet, more likely, these are closer to street machines that he wants to be able to play on somewhere rather than public roads.
Also, as far as the noise is concerned - I think some people are just unrealistic in their expectations. In the town I gre up in, and where my mother still lives, a 24x7 sound ordinance was put in place several years ago. A typical lawn mower violaited the limits put in place.
If this guy were a stand up guy, it wouldn't have come to this. I suspect that he took the "it's my property, I'll do with it what I want" attitude and it landed him in court.
I don't think you can know that either. If you meet opposition as the very start, what other choice to you have?
I'll be honest with you - I'm buying a new house (hopefully closing this week), and I plan on putting up a privacy fence by the fall. I'm nervous about asking my neighbors. I feel compelled to let them know of my plans because it will effect their views and so forth - but I'm also nervous because if they tell me they don't want me to and get all bent out of shape, it's not going to stop me. It's my yard, and if I want to put up a residential fence on my yard, then I'm going to.
Let's go back to your junk car parked out front example. Many towns have laws against parking an unregistered vehicle outside or on the street - things of that nature. Does that exsist where you are? If not, then the guy was breaking no laws, and I don't think, even as a neighbor, you have any real recourse. What if the guys everyday transportation was a beat up, poor running and rusty 1977 Oldsmobile, which was praked in the same fashion when not in use? Would you feel the need for some recourse?
I understand the angle you're coming from - and I, too, try to operate in a "be ploite and try not to piss anyone off" mode, but there comes a point where infringement on someone elses right to enjoy their property comes WAY after my right to enjoy my own.
(Message edited by xl1200r on June 29, 2009) |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 10:02 am: |
|
How so?
And how is a private racetrack not in accordance with zoning? We don't know the sepcific laws, but how can something like a paved surface completely change the use? People buy tracts of land for ATVs and no one has an issue with it - why is this THAT different?
There is a significant difference between running ATVs and running a paved race track.
Breeding dogs is a commercial operation that would be specifically forbidden under zoning laws for a residential neighborhood.
Now, with 250 acres, the ability to breed dogs would be probably permitted.
If the property next to mine was zoned to accomodate as such, who am I to tell the next owner what he can and can't do with it?
In the absence of specific zoning rules governing land use, the affected residence have only one recourse, legal injunction to provide for a case specific hearing on the intended use. The judge might rule that the use intended is consistent with the land. The judge may not.
If there were no specific zoning restrictions prohibiting the dump, even you'd more than likely seek to have the use reviewed by a judge.
That's not the point of my question. I have three bikes. I work on them a lot. The work is consistant with what would be found at a commercial shop, but it's not - they're my private vehicles
Not true. Now if you had people coming and going all day dropping off and picking up motorcycles, significant deliveries, excess traffic, added noise, fumes, trash, multiple employees, etc., THAT would be a commercial enterprise. I'd bitch if I were your neighbor. Working on YOUR bikes does not constitute a commercial venture. Not even close.
Again, how do you know this is some 1000cc superbike?
I'm sure he will be running only single cylinder 100cc bikes around his track.
Do you really think that out of 100 bikes owned that NONE of them are larger displacement?
Do you really think that owning a track in his back yard he wouldn't take at least ONE of them out on occasion? |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 11:02 am: |
|
There is a significant difference between running ATVs and running a paved race track.
I don't believe there is.
Breeding dogs is a commercial operation that would be specifically forbidden under zoning laws for a residential neighborhood.
I'm still T-minus 4 days from becomming a homeowner, so I'll have to default to your knowledge on this. I wouldn't they would specify dog breeding, but I guess crazier things are regulated.
If there were no specific zoning restrictions prohibiting the dump, even you'd more than likely seek to have the use reviewed by a judge.
You're likely correct - but if the judge didn't rule in my favor, that's where the bitching and moaning would have to stop.
Not true. Now if you had people coming and going all day dropping off and picking up motorcycles, significant deliveries, excess traffic, added noise, fumes, trash, multiple employees, etc., THAT would be a commercial enterprise. I'd bitch if I were your neighbor. Working on YOUR bikes does not constitute a commercial venture. Not even close.
I think you've provided an extreme case, but I see your point.
Can we look at this on the flip side? Your argument DOES hold water - a person should be able to enjoy their property so long as it doesn't impede on other's ability to enjoy theirs.
BUT
At what point does the other's complaining impede on your ability to enjoy your own property?
I think maybe there are two very realistic sides to this, and we've both, based on personal experience, gravitated twoards the extremes.
You've already given your example, here's mine:
When living in my first apartment, once in a while I would have my car and my bike parked in the praking lot in front of the building because the garage I had gotten for the bike was on the other side of the complex. One day, I found a note stuffed into the handlebar of my bike saying something to the effect of, "It is necessary that you take up so much room? Have some respect for your neighbors".
Keep this in mind - our building had THREE TIMES the number of spaces than tenants had cars. About 1/3 of the spaces where right out the front door, the others were a mere 20' foot walk to the spaces that were right next our building.
Also keep in mind I was renting a 2-bedroom unti, and as far as I was concerned, I was entitled to AT LESAT two-vehciles to be parked out front because of this. What if myslef, my girlfriend, and my brother were all living together? That's three cars. GASP!
Anyways, I just got really tweaked that someone I didn't even know felt they had the authority to tell me what to do with my stuff. I drive a compact car on top of it - a small car and a bike??? When most of the cars in our building were SUVs and pick up trucks? Give me a break.
Anyways, that's where my stance comes from. If I'm not breaking any standing rules or laws, then I have no obligation to be a good neighbor, despite it being in my best interest. That's not to say I won't be, just that I don't HAVE to be. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:28 pm: |
|
I hope he gets to build it. The newspaper article implies that the zoning is ok...as long has he uses it with a little common sense (like use it when the neighbors are zipping around on their own toys on their own property on the weekend) and not waking people up or keeping them awake at night. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Fast -
In all my typing, I've been meaning to say exactly that. I think this guy should be allowed to build this thing and use it provided he follow some reasonable guidelines like others have listed. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 01:51 pm: |
|
|
Loki
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 02:25 pm: |
|
This is one of those threads......
A lot more to this story than what is in the article.
After my short research on this one. I would say let him build it. With a few caveats to be adhered to.
1) that no commercial use permits ever be issued or requested.
2) that in the open areas around the outside of the proposed track borders. Be planted with trees to act as a noise buffer.
3) Users not exceed x number of bikes at any given time. No cars or trucks of any type.
4) permitted hours of use per day. days per week/month. Specific days of non use.
Lets face it the man is not going to be out there 24/7 - 365 days a year. Grant the land owner a "conditional use" permit for a defined time period. |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 03:16 pm: |
|
Sorry, I don't get this one at all.
If the guy is that well heeled that he can buy over 100 bikes & build his own racetrack, why the f*** doesnt he just build a house/garage complex next to a racetrack?
Or buy himself a bastard great toy hauler with all the whistles & bells.
I'd have though either alternative would be way cheaper than building his own track, more environmentally & neighbour friendly too.
No sorry, to me it looks like he's trying to ride roughshod over his neighbours & rub their noses in it at the same time. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 03:17 pm: |
|
Theres an empty warehouse that has a collapsed roof, it has sat vacant for 15 years. Me and some of the local MT bikers have gotten in and used it for some fun.
I would love to fill it with dirt and make a proper hoopdee course out of it. BMX style.... with the occasional personal use of dirt squirter. |
|
