| Author | Message | ||
     Featheredfiend |
http://www.superbike.it/results.asp?p_S_Campionato=SSP&p_Anno=2004&p_Sessione=Q1 A They probably forgot to tell Lanzi to rev it to 15k. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
Qualified 16th, finished 4th. Nice job by Lorenzo Lanzi and the 749 in the rain, well done. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Apparently the track was dry so even better for Ducati, well done. | ||
| Blake |
Way cool JQ; thanks for posting pertinent results. Nothing like an actual race to shut the mouths of naysayers. Bet against Ducati? Not me. | ||
| Blake |
But of course the race results have nothing to do with the rev-limit/piston-speed debate. Just a great result for a first race of a new bike with a new rider and a new team. WOOOHOOO! | ||
| Featheredfiend |
But they have everything to do with the poor showing of Team Honda. Don't count on it again. If the 749R shows itself worthy, expect a re-evaluation of its' 25% displacement advantage. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
Yeah, Honda did have a horrible weekend, with crashes, jump starts and bad tire choices a plenty. Valmoto Triumph qualified 20th, finished 26th, DNF with a mechanical. | ||
| Blake |
One of the 749's DNF's too.  FF, Are you saying that if the 749R proves competitive that WSS will change the rules to make it uncompetitive? Considering that the superbike rules used to give the twins a 33% displacement advantage, I see 25% as a fair and possibly inadequate allowance. Maybe they should limit the number of valves and throttle bodies allowed on the IL4's. After all they have a 100% advantage in those areas, not to mention the # of cylinders. Here's a good one that will do much to aid Ducati's quest in WSS... No valve springs allowed. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
One of the 749's DNF'd too. Probably over-revved it to 16K.  Yes, I too expect to see Honda to better next race. I'll still be routing for the Ducatis! FF, Are you saying that if the 749R proves competitive that WSS will change the rules to make it uncompetitive? Considering that the superbike rules used to give the twins a 33% displacement advantage, I see 25% as a fair and possibly inadequate allowance. Maybe they should limit the number of valves and throttle bodies allowed on the IL4's. After all they have a 100% advantage in those areas, not to mention the # of cylinders. Here's a good one that will do much to aid Ducati's quest in WSS... No valve springs allowed. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
Blake, Just for review: I'm rooting for the Duc, also, you can rout if you like. The 749R is the only motorcycle, in Ducati's present line up, that I would consider. I felt the same about the 748R. I'm biased. The '49R, if it truly is competitive, should be so from the git go. Ducati is not re-inventing the wheel with this bike. My comment concerning displacement is based on Superbike history. If Ducati hones this machine into a dominant player, then, yes, I expect a re-evaluation of the displacement advantage. This is just logical. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
They do get the extra 150cc's but they also have to carry 8 extra kilograms than the 600's. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Ducati claims 140 hp at 13,000 rpm for their WSS spec 749R. They don't mention redline. Trap speed at Valencia for the 749R was 263 km/h, the fastest recorded during the race. edited by josé_quiñones on March 01, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
FF, You are rooting for the Duc?! This is the same guy that disparaged the SS Duc in prior posts, saying... and...
Yeah, you are a real fan.  I don't think Ducati wants or needs fans like you. As to your double talk... If you had said "dominant" in your prior post, I would have simply said "yep." You however said "worthy." I'll try to explain and simplify for you... Me speak English. Me savy words. You no use word right. You learn words. We maybe talk more good. You say same you think. No more say again different.  JQ, Dang! 140 hp at 13K rpm, eh! For a SS spec bike! And they were the fastest thru the trap! I hope they get the chassis dialed-in and up to IL4 stomping form soon. WOOHOO! edited by blake on March 02, 2004 | ||
| Featheredfiend |
The Ducati Superbikes carried extra weight penalties, also. History. "I don't think Ducati wants or needs fans like you." Don't be so presumptuous. My US dollars, shrinking though they are, are still welcome. I, as well as all Ducatisti, wish success for Ducati, but raising expectations from one race is analogous to buying a motorcycle based on a motorcycle rag's number crunch. In any event, it's enjoyable watching a Bueller revel in Ducati's limited success. And I thought Torque was your mantra. I'm still learning. feathered | ||
| Blake |
When it comes to Ducati factory racing, there is one and only one expectation. Anyone who would doubt Ducati's ability to compete in a series in which they choose to campaign is beyond foolish. "Ducatis limited success"...  That is akin to saying, "Michael Jordan's limited success" or "the NY Yankees' limited success" or "Tiger Woods' Limited success." You defy description. FYI, I was a Ducati fan long before I ever heard of Buell motorcycles. | ||
| Court |
>>>That is akin to saying, "Michael Jordan's limited success" or "the NY Yankees' limited success" or "Tiger Woods' Limited success." Too funny. That is VERY accurate information. | ||
| José_quiñones |
If you bothered to read both sets of rules, you would see that World Supersport Specs are much less restricted than AMA Supersport. Cam timing, gearing, bodywork material are among a few of the key differences that explain the performance differences. In fact, AMA FX rules are much closer to the FIM World/British Supersport Rules than AMA Supersport rules. Two 749s are racing in WSS (and even Ducati is lowering expectations calling 2004 a "Development Year" , will any show up for AMA FX this Thursday? edited by josé_quiñones on March 02, 2004 | ||
| Xb9er |
I don't know who to root for, but I won't be routing. Main Entry: 4root Pronunciation: 'rüt also 'rut Function: intransitive verb Etymology: perhaps alteration of 2rout 1 : to noisily applaud or encourage a contestant or team : CHEER 2 : to wish the success of or lend support to someone or something - root·er noun Main Entry: 5rout Pronunciation: 'raut Function: transitive verb 1 a : to disorganize completely : DEMORALIZE b : to put to precipitate flight c : to defeat decisively or disastrously <the discomfiture of seeing their party routed at the polls -- A. N. Holcombe> 2 : to drive out : DISPEL Mike. | ||
| Blake |
JQ, You are right, I don't know the rules for the different classes. I assumed they were similar. AMAPR forbids adjustment of cam timing in SS? WSS allows superbike type engine modifications? Those people are confused. I'll have to look at the tech rules now to verify that for myself. Sounds awfully strange to me. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Oops, AMA SS allows changes in Cam timing, but not lift or duration. WSS allows changes in timing and duration, but not lift, like the AMA FX rules. | ||
| José_quiñones |
FIM Rules are HERE AMA Rules are HERE | ||
| Featheredfiend |
Blake, My comment concerning Ducati's success was made within the context of the discussion surrounding the 749's solo race. It would be great if Ducati could bring to the marketplace a further improved 749 with its' own bona fide racing record. The 748's sales have depended, at least stateside, on its' close identity to the flagship 916 etc. feathered | ||
| Blake |
I can't get the AMA rules to load. I have a copy of last years. One thing I notice in the FIM/WSS rules is that they require unaltered stock pistons, pins, rods, and rings. Of course Superbike classes allow those to be custom/aftermarket pieces. WSS does allow head porting and valve jobs, a huge difference between the AMAPR rules for SS that prohibit any work on the heads or valves. And as you said, the WSS cams can be custom as long as they don't exceed stock lift. Does FX allow custom pistons, rods, pins, and rings? If not, then as you astutely stated, it looks like WSS is darn near equivalent to AMA FX. | ||
| José_quiñones |
A WSS spec 749 would not be legal for AMA SS, but it would be for FX. from the AMA rulebook:
If it does not mention it, it can be modified. | ||
| José_quiñones |
In terms of restrictions, WSS is between the extremes of the very restricted AMA SS rules and the almost Superbike AMA FX rules, but closer to FX. | ||
| Blake |
Did you notice that FX allows the twins to have unrestricted valve lift? That might pump up the 749R another, oh I dunno, 8 HP or so. Have you ever wondered how it is that a "twin-cylinder" is not considered a "multi-cylinder" machine? LOL. The CMRA rules read similarly. We need to invent a word that means "more than two."... "Multwople"? heheh | ||
| Featheredfiend |
Is anyone campaigning a 749 in AMA SS? feathered | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"Are you saying that if the 749R proves competitive that WSS will change the rules to make it uncompetitive? Considering that the superbike rules used to give the twins a 33% displacement advantage, I see 25% as a fair and possibly inadequate allowance. Maybe they should limit the number of valves and throttle bodies allowed on the IL4's. After all they have a 100% advantage in those areas, not to mention the # of cylinders. Here's a good one that will do much to aid Ducati's quest in WSS... No valve springs allowed. " Based solely on trap speed, I see restrictions in the 749's future. I'm also beginning to sound like you(that's disgusting  ) Now we have parity (displacement) in Superbike I expect similar actions to follow in SS. feathered | ||
| José_quiñones |
None allowed by the rules in SS. They are allowed in FX, but none entered in FX to date. In fact there are not MotoGuzzis, BMW's, or Buells in FX at Daytona. There was one Buell that tried to qualify, but it was not fast enough. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
JQ, Not to patronize, but of all the forums I visit, you've studied and can best condense the rules. It's appreciated. Thanks. feathered | ||
| Blake |
"Now we have parity (displacement) in Superbike I expect similar actions to follow in SS." Then you expect wrongly. You're just another spectator who has swallowed the logic that displacement is the only performance parameter that matters. If they bump the IL4' sin SS up to 750cc, you have one factory with a bike that will compete. So that is not viable. If you lower the twin displacement to 600cc, you have no factory with a competitive bike, so that is not viable. However, if you simply adjust the rules to maintain parity between 600cc IL4's and 750cc twins, well then you have good racing. I agree, JQ is up on the rules. He's thrown them in my face enough to prove it. | ||
| José_quiñones |
But it makes no sense to make the twins heavier than Fours like WSS does. MotoGP has varying weights based on the number of cyclinders, the more cylinders the heavier the minimum weight. WSS should either make them all the same, or raise the 600's up to meet the twin's weight. AMA FX has a minimum weight of 350 pounds for all bikes. | ||
| Featheredfiend |
"Then you expect wrongly. You're just another spectator who has swallowed the logic that displacement is the only performance parameter that matters. If they bump the IL4' sin SS up to 750cc, you have one factory with a bike that will compete. So that is not viable. If you lower the twin displacement to 600cc, you have no factory with a competitive bike, so that is not viable. However, if you simply adjust the rules to maintain parity between 600cc IL4's and 750cc twins, well then you have good racing." Agreed. But rather than displacement adjustment, couldn't it be conceivable that restrictions(intake)be imposed on the 749, given its' superior trap speed? Actually, there is something of more interest, to me anyway, going on here. It has to do with marketing. It's a habit. feathered | ||
| M1combat |
What is the weight limit in Moto GP for twins? | ||
| Blake |
Yeah sure, whatever is needed to maintain close competitoin, but what are you talking about "superior trap speed"??? Was that during the race or off a good draft during qualifying or practice? What was the disparity? Sounds like you are jumping the gun on this to me. Until Ducati starts actually dominating the series, there will be no call whatsoever to do anything to try to slow them down. Why would there be? I think the series needs to play out for a year or two before we'll see any credible trend wrt the Ducati twin versus IL4 issue, and thus any change in the rules to maintain parity among the contestants. I don't understand the weight rules in WSS either. On one hand the Ducs can run high lift cams, but on the other they must carry around an extra 20 LBs (or whatever it is). Well, on second thought, the whole rules situation sounds very "Italian" to me. Doesn't make sense, but they get the job done. Kinda like a 999 running against a GSXR1000. Doesn't make sense, but look who's on pole at Daytona. GO EBoz!!! Ya gotta love it. This may be Ducati's year. I gotta bad feeling about a DNF though. Austin's record on that front is pretty dismal. Maybe the resident Italian crew will have that covered. How about that Miguel. And did you see the new lap record for the AMA SS class at Daytona? Man! That must have been the "Perfect Lap" we all dream about. |
