| Author | Message | ||
     Viros |
Motorcyclist Hard numbers: 03' SV 650 72.5RW @8750, 47.2ftlb @7250 & FWIW 03' XB9R 78.2RW @7250, 61.8ftlb @5500 05'Fischer MRX650 77BHP @9500RPM, 52ftlb @7500RPM (crankshaft #'s) I like the Fisher somewhat but would like it more with RC51 kind of power(regardless of where the motors made)... It would be interesting to see what a supercharger would do to the Fisher... then again I wonder what Buell might have in 2005??? edited by viros on February 20, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Viros, You are comparing actual dynomometer measured performance at the rear wheel (SV650 and XB9R) to an advertised engine BHP, at the crankshaft. That is a completely invalid comparison. Either compare based upon advertised engine BHP or Dyno measured RWHP, but not both. The Fischer will likely produce dyno measured rwhp in the high 60's, or if very lucky, the low 70's. The XB9R's engine is advertised to at 92BHP if I'm not mistaken. | ||
| Viros |
Thanks for pointing that out Blake, I made the correction. | ||
| Rocketman |
Dan Fischer has stated American demand will soak up all the bikes he can build. Only later, after its initial success is he intending to sell world wide. Why can't you read the same info as I and why do you have to interpret it different, in a manner suggesting the Fischer is somewhat a joke especially since it has what you describe as a 'knock off' engine? Is it because Fischer has made remarks that upset Buells foot hold on American performance bikes? Seems you really do see it as a threat to Buells crown but I wouldn't worry to much Blake, I doubt that's Fischers intention. Never the less this is a bold concept for a retired bike racer to undertake and he appears to be on the right track. Using Korean power shows great business sense, its only problem being trying to convince bull headed ignorant onlookers that Korea can build capable motorcycle engines. I for one wish it well and more so because it boldly goes where no one has gone before - Korea. Rocket | ||
| Court |
>>>Is it because Fischer has made remarks that upset Buells foot hold on American performance bikes? Rocket: Good point. I know that the Fischer dealers, announced two years ago, in New York City have really cut into Buell sales. I used to see mostly Buells on the streets, but now I can see, just from a drive through town, that Fischer, just as they said, is saturating the market.  Please..... | ||
| Brucelee |
Rocketman loves to argue and be right! Unfortunately, he can't do both! Blake 1, Rman, 0! | ||
| Brucelee |
BTW-I am wondering what is American about this new "superbike"? | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Based on the tank shape I predict one of the first available accessories will be a wearable carbon fiber groin shield. I almost shot milk and rice crispies out my nose when I read this. I have to stop surfing while eating breakfast. As for the Fischer, I like the way it looks but the lack of power and high price is sure to doom it. They had better get an engine that will compete with the other bikes in that price range or this company will be out of business within a year or two of product launch. If I want a 600cc crotch rocket I'd get the CBR be done with it. A 600 is not a superbike it's the low end of the sportbike world. That class is dominated by bang for the buck with a high fun factor and a good power to weight ratio. | ||
| Thunderbolt |
}I don't see Mr. Leno being prone to buying a Korean based motorcycle. Who actually knows (other than Jay himself, i suppose) whether he'd be interested in the bike. Not me, but it is my guess that's the type i bet this limited run is being aimed at (rich enthusiast). fortunately time will tell with this one, no need to argue about it. as far as this bike being korean based, you are obviously trolling with that one. was the first buell japanese based? didn't it use a yamaha engine. totally ridiculous. I don't see any prospective SV650 customers plopping down and extra $4K for fancy bodywork, a Korean engine, and an improved suspension. this bike is almost certainly NOT aimed at the prospective SV650 customer. however, there are PLENTY of SV650 owners who DO dump thousands of $$ into their bikes for improved bodywork and improved suspension. Now, if they were to supercharge it, that would be a whole other ball game. my guess is that they are indeed trying to figure out how to get the supercharged bike into production. duh. Looks to me like the pointy rear portion of the fuel tank would hit me right about in the solar plexus when tucked in. That can't be good. LOL. it does look pointy. i'll give 'em the benefit of the doubt and guess that they have indeed sat on it though. i can't wait to do the same. I doubt very much that a 56.1 inch wheelbase with 24 degrees of rake and 4 inches of trail is going to yield anything close to "best of class handling". I agree that it's silly to try to guess whether or not a bike will have good handling from a spec sheet like the report seemed to do. BUT i also think it's just as ridiculous to discount it for the same. doesn't the world killing honda motogp bike have a wheelbase LONGER than 56.1"?? again, time will tell but i am betting they know they need better than 100rwhp to compete and with that in mind certainly like what i see so far. | ||
| Blake |
Rocket, You certainly like to put words into my mouth. I never suggested the Fischer was a "joke." I'm simply stating my opinion wrt its viability in the marketplace here in America. Based upon its configuration it will be competing with the bikes that I listed and maybe a few more. Whether you personally would like to see a Korean based motorcycle succeed in the market is of no meaning here. What I am saying is that using a repackaged Korean version of a Japanese SV650 engine will have a HUGELY negative impact on its ability to sell for the advertised price. Why? Look at the Korean automobiles selling in America (Hyundai, and Kia); they sell cheap cars for cheap prices. Some are packaged in cool looking bodywork, but they don't sell to collectors, and they don't compete with the higher end brands, neither are they priced to do so. In America "made in Korea" holds the connotation of "low end and inexpensive." That applies to more than vehicles, look at LG (Goldstar), and Samsung electronics. Good stuff, but cheap, not high priced. Mr. Fischer, from where I sit is trying to package a cheap product in fancy plastic and charge a premium price, and all from a completely unproven brand-new moto manufacturer. I simply am disagreeing with your claim that the Fischer will sell and succeed because it is a limited production hand-built bike. It is not. It is slated for mass production and it is using a Korean clone of a Japanese engine. How appealing is that to the $10K sport bike market? Answer, it is not appealing at all. Whether it is initially slated for export has nothing to do with the issue of mass production. The Buells succeed here in part for three reasons... 1. Because they offer competitively priced products that are very very different and innovative that excel in certain areas of performance. 2. They are seen as being substantially American. 3. They have a huge dealership base with HDI standing behind them. I'm not sure you could take away any of those three factors and still have a viable mass produced Buell product line succeeding in today's marketplace. I truly do wish Mr. Fischer all the luck and good fortune. But pragmatically, I don't see a high probability for success; It would be tough to convince me to invest a substantial amount of my hard earned savings in the business. Now, if they initially come out at $10K and sell a few hundred, maybe on the internet, then drop the price to $7,995, THEN maybe they'll have a chance for success. That could well be their plan. We'll just have to wait and see. You didn't respond to my earlier questions... 1. How long do you reckon the folks at Fischer using an existing engine design have been working to get this bike to market? 2. How much capital do you suppose they have invested/borrowed to do so? And I have a new one... 3. What level of quality and reliability do you expect from a new motorcycle being built by a new entrant to the industry, and will that be an ominous hurdle for Fischer to clear? edited by blake on February 21, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Thunderbolt, There are very few SV owners who put $4K worth of suspension and bodywork upgrades into their bikes. The ones who do are serious road racers. The Fischer will need new bodywork for racing. And even with Ohlins, it will also need suspension work. Do you really see a $10K Korean SV650 with fancy fairing and Ohlin suspension being competitive? Like I said, maybe at $7,900, but not at $10K. I do agree, the Fischer at $10K would be aimed more at the XB9R, Ducati 800SS prospective buyers, not SV650 customers. But then, you are taking an SV650 and wrapping it in fancy plastic and adding premium suspension and calling that competitive to the XB9R or Ducati 800SS? I don't see it. The Buells and Ducs are VERY unique. The Fischer is a repacked Korean based SV650. As to the 56" wheelbase of the GP bikes, that as you well know is NOT done for optimum handling, it is done for optimum acceleration. That has been very well documented and even described by the moto press in much detail. In Moto GP, there is a trade-off between optimum handling and optimum acceleration. You damn well know that, and using the RC211V's 56" wheelbase to try to suggest that the Fischer might indeed achieve class leading handling is simply dishonest debating/trolling. Shame on you. We're talking about a street bike that won't see upwards of 130 mph, not a 230 rwhp GP bike that needs to exit a 60 mph turn and wick up to 200 mph as quickly as possible. I guarantee you that if the GP tracks were more technical and tight, the RC211V would have a shorter wheelbase. But using your approach... The performance of 125cc and 250cc GP machines is much more comparable to where the Fischer 650 will fall in the world of sport bikes, would you not agree? What kind of wheelbase do those racing machines have?  The first Buell was not a street bike, it was a balls to the wall AMA Formula-1 racing machine, and it used a British Barton based 2-stroke square-4 engine. It was not a mass produced bike, nor was it a street bike. All Buell street bikes and even subsequent racing machines have utilized American/HD based engines. I to like that another American company is trying to enter the competitive world of sport bikes. | ||
| José_quiñones |
And in the tradition of Bimota, Cagiva, Sachs and yes even Buell, they are using someone else's engine to get them started. Greg asked if I was tired of my Japanese V-Twin. Refinement, smoothness and bulletproof reliability are never tiring, you should try it. The added piece of mind when I go riding long distances of not having to wonder when it's going to break down is very liberating. Would I rather buy a SV650 and build my own up to these specs, or just get this bike, a true limited production exotic, with a Korean version of a well designed, refined and bulletproof engine wrapped in an American designed and built Frame & Swingarm with links to Harleys Fabulous Disaster (the VR1000), awesome bodywork designed by a Brit, with the best suspension components available in the motorcycling world and assembled in my next door state of Maryland? Unless HD/Buell pulls something better than what they have out of their hat this year, the choice will be easy for me, I'll let you all know how it holds up. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Another thing, everybody is hung up on the Horsepower on this thing, nobody seems to notice that the "claimed" 367 pounds dry weight and 392 pounds wet weight, which would be 50 pounds lighter than an XB9R. The performance #'s might be more similar than you think. | ||
| Dynarider |
Im not so sure they dont have a 1000cc version as well. In the article it says this "The bike on display is the third prototype in the series". Note the word series, now does that refer to simply a series of prototypes or does it refer to Fischer offering up a series of 3 different bikes? Either way there is no way I would plunk down $10K for 70 or so hp in a supposed superbike. It sure is sweet looking tho. Pop in a rotax or even the Suzuki 1000TL motor in that thing & it would look like a major winner. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Jose no engine is bullet proof and if you really belive dry weight is 367 and wet weight is 392. do the math ...the fuel is 4.3 gallons I think I read and then you got oil....just like all claimed numbers who really knows. just my thoughts..... put the 1k engine in their and then we are talking about something I think. | ||
| Blake |
The added piece of mind when I go riding long distances of not having to wonder when it's going to break down is very liberating. Until it does.  a true limited production exotic No bike with a Korean knockoff of a Suzki engine will EVER be considered an "exotic", at least not in the present. Please. It's interesting how a completely new bike is perceived by some as already possessing world beating attributes. Wrap a little star wars looking plastic around a Korean version of an SV650, slap on an Ohlin suspension, and voila, you have a "true limited production exotic"? Funny too how one would automatically assume that a Korean version of Japanese engine automatically deserves the accolades of "well designed, refined and bulletproof." And despite popular perception, not all Ohlins suspension components are "the best suspension components available in the motorcycling world." Neither does the use of said components guarantee superior handling. I do agree, the power is certainly competitive with an XB9R or an SV650, or a Duc 800SS. JQ, I never would have predicted you falling for something so unproven and plasti-covered and Korean based. What leads you to think they will be "limited production"? I'll certainly be interested in seeing/riding one if/when they actually become available. | ||
| S320002 |
José, I have tried it. My first bike was a Honda CB400F (the original production café racer). I have owned Japanese bikes since then and have enjoyed them all, but none as much as my Buell. I have made several cross country trips on it, some of them in excess of 5,000 miles, and ridden it on many of the nations race tracks. My Buell always gets me there and back. | ||
| Rocketman |
Those Korean's, up north they got the A bomb. What makes you think they can't make a good 650cc motorcycle engine in the south? Rocket | ||
| Dynarider |
My little 88 Festiva was a korean car, built by Kia, designed by mazda & owned by Ford..weird relationships there...anyways it was a well built & ultra dependable car. I have 2 friends who owned them as well. Worst problem anyone had was a rear wheel bearing took a dump on 1 car after 90,000 miles. Between the 3 of us we had over 350,000 trouble free miles on those little Korean cars. | ||
| Crusty |
Has everybody forgotten Bimota? They used Japanese engines and made some extremely exotic and breathtakingly beautiful machines. (I know, they also used Duck motors) I don't know of any bulletproof engines. They all break. My Honda 750 left me on the side of I-70 in Kansas. My FLHS did the same in Ohio. My 850 T Guzzi sat in Minneapolis for a month while I had to ride a Greyhound Bus to Louisville so I wouldn't miss work. My BMW had the courtesy to die 11 miles from my house. Last season, in AMA Superbike alone, I saw Hondas, Suzukis, etc., all suffer from mechanical woes. I don't for a minute believe published claims for weight. As Bubba pointed out, the gasoline alone weighs more than the difference between wet and dry. I'll put more faith in any numbers once the bike has been weighed by someone like Motorcycle Consumer News, or Cycle World. Ten years ago, Buell came out with the S2. It used a proven, reliable engine, first rate WP suspension, and had a rigid tube steel frame. Now, Fisher is showing their "superbike". It has a stiff looking frame, Olins suspension and an unproven engine with unknown reliability that's a copy of a different manufacturers' proven reliable engine. As food for thought, the Ural engine was a copy of a BMW engine. Is the Ural as reliable as a Beemer? | ||
| Oldguy |
I'm not from Missouri, but I'll believe it when I can see it in a showroom. It seems like everyone wants to build motorcycles. I wish Fischer luck, but can remember American Eagle, Yankee, Norton (numerous times), Indian (also numerous times) and Excelsior-Henderson were all going to be the next great thing. How many others have there been? There is also the new Vincent coming. Using an available engine is a smart move for a small/new manufacturer. I think Indian and Excelsior-Henderson both proved that you can go through a big pile of bucks trying to build your own engine. A Korean copy of the SV650 would make economic sense if they can keep the quality. Calling a 650 a superbike is a bit of a stretch these days. Even thirty years ago, a 650 was on the small side. And it's interesting seeing all this discussion on a unfinished prototype bike and its spec sheet. Oh well, argue on. Glenn | ||
| José_quiñones |
If Bimota was considered Exotic, there is no reason to not use the same term for this bike, no matter where the engine comes from. A while ago you guys wanted to argue that Buells should be considered exotics, this will be built in less numbers so it will be more exotic than a Buell. No engines are bulletproof, but compared to my S3, my SV is bulletproof. A 90 degree Vtwin, by its nature, will not to vibrate itself to death, so it will be more reliable than our beloved paintshakers no matter who produces it just based on that alone. I agree, until the Fischer bikes hit the street, and is tested, this is just a fun waste of time. However, I'm very glad they're trying and when I said "Finally, a choice!" I mean that's what Buell/HD needs, someone like Fischer or Polaris going after the American built Sportbike slice of the market, it might force them to do things that they like claim don't need to be done or "won't sell". | ||
| Glitch |
There are very few SV owners who put $4K worth of suspension and bodywork upgrades into their bikes. What is very few? I'm not arguing here, just need to know what you mean by very few. There's a very big following for the little SV650. It's a cult bike. There's a group of SVRiders here that have done unreal things to their bikes. If you don't have GSXR inverted forks and an Olins shock, full racing exhaust, and at least a stage two jet kit, they won't let you play, and these guys got lots of playmates. Also I'm not saying these guys would buy a bike that has already had all this done, as we all know, part of the fun is doing it yourself. The SV (to me) is a phemomenon, sure all bike makers want the success that the SV has seen, but I think it happened by happy accident, not by design. The Fischer is a new bike that isn't going to sell a bunch of bikes to begin with. That's the way it is. No new bike has ever jumped into the market and been able to compete in the production area of any established bike maker. Ya just got to hand it to Fischer for giving it a go. The argument of what makes an American bike has been had before about the XB series, because of all the Italian made parts ect. I do agree however that the engine being what it is, and the American consumer being what they are, and Fischer calling their 650 a superbike, and what Americans think (Brits too it seems or at least one Brit) a superbike is, makes their uphill battle an even steeper one. Another note about those SVRider, they are nuts, and most won't tell you how much they have in their bikes, because once it's all added up, someone always asks, why didn't you just buy a _______? | ||
| Spooky |
Another note about those SVRider, they are nuts, and most won't tell you how much they have in their bikes, because once it's all added up, someone always asks, why didn't you just buy a _______? Sounds a lot like a few of us Blast owners. | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
I wish Fischer the best... I agree with the sentiment that more competition from an American company (foreign motor or not) is in order. The catch phrase "Buy American" doesn't apply any longer in our world economy. I'd be more prone to say, "Buy American Based." I agree with the statements made that this is just an initial production run. Refinement may bring an extremely successful production bike. Only time will tell. Either way, I hope they do well. Charles | ||
| Rocketman |
The term Superbike is a reference directed at a given manufacturers 1000cc sports bike - 1000cc being the upper limit for capacity in Superbike racing. The terminology 'Superbike' is sometimes used in reference to larger capacity sports bikes, for example, Suzuki GSXR1100, and likewise these days for 600cc sports bikes because 600cc sports bikes represent the next highest class of motorcycle road racing. Not only that, 600cc is the best selling class and 600cc sports bikes are capable of neigh on Superbike performance. After all, you could hardly call Honda's most recent CBR600 a middleweight. Fischer's supercharged 650cc should put it in excess of 150mph, not far short of Superbike status in performance speak. Then of course, there's always its exotic status, exotic sometimes seen as Superbike status in itself. What's in a name? Rocket | ||
| Crusty |
So, Rocket; if Buell were to put a turbocharger on an XB, and it reaches 150+ MPH, you would call it a Superbike? | ||
| Rocketman |
I would indeed. That's the crux of my disappointment in the XB's, their lack of Superbike performance. A turbo 12S sounds great but I'd prefer a V twin with belt drive twin cam 4 valve hemi heads coupled with a 6 speed transmission. Can you imagine strafing Blades and R1's on a 150+mph 12S? Better still, how about 160+mph? That's what I'd call a Buell Superbike. Rocket edited by rocketman on February 22, 2004 | ||
| Crusty |
I bet that if Buell built it, Motorcyclist would pan it. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Cagiva looks for a new Korea edited by josé_quiñones on February 22, 2004 |
