| Author | Message | ||
     Cityxslicker |
Youre right, I learned to shoot because my Grandfather taught me at the age of 5, because someday you might be called into war, because everyone in your family has served. Since the War of 1812, there has been at least one member of my family in every generation that was documented in the service as carrying a gun and fighting for what is right, fighting for America. That flag at the gate is there for a reason. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Buellgrrrl, apparently, has never been to Baltimore City where a body a night is dropped from gunfire. Gun usage is alive and well in the hood. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Ok, here is my ammo: http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/08/gun.control .poll/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/16/guns.poll/index.h tml http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25391991/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24036160/?displaymode= 1006&previewmode=1 http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights- Examiner~y2009m3d9-Democrats-still-dont-get-it-on- gun-rights-says-Rasmussen-poll http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-02-26 -guns-cover_N.htm | ||
| Chellem |
Well, I'll confess I didn't read them all, but that top one - on CNN besides - pretty much tears up Buellgrrrrrllllllls "demographic reality". Oh well. Better luck next time. For those who don't bother with clicking and what-not, here's a pertinent clip: " Since 2001, most Americans have favored stricter gun laws, though support has slightly dropped in recent years: 54 percent favored stricter laws in 2001, compared with 50 percent in 2007, according to Gallup polling. Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll." Recent being early April of this year. Huh. So it's not just rednecks with their huntin' licenses shootin' cans in the ever-shrinking woods? Imagine that. ->ChelleM | ||
| Court |
>>>Those rural areas have traditionally provided our best mechanics as well as hunters, etc.. Huh? I live in the largest city in the United States and the most densely populated. Also, perhaps, the city with the most guns in the United States. Where do you pull this ridiculous stuff from? (Message edited by court on April 17, 2009) | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Actually, I think Buellgrrl has a point. In my completely unscientific- anecdotal experience, I know fewer shooters (fewer hunters as well.) Yes, I know lots of 'gun-nuts', lots of hunters, lots of military. But I can't deny that the numbers of those as compared to when I was a wee lad have shrunk. Even back in my bumfk-backwoods-podunk hometown it's noticeable. Are there shooters? Sure. Are there as many as 20 years ago? I'm not sure but I think no. Hell, I used to go to school with a shotgun behind the seat of my truck just in case we decided to get together after school and shoot clays. We had a rifle team. (And I don't mean those gun twirling cheerleader types either.) We had pistol and rifle matches weekly. The first day of deer season saw the male student population drop about 50%. Like I said, I have no stats and honestly don't feel the need to go scouting around for them. Just from my gut feeling, I can't completely dismiss Bgrrls' theory. Is the Constitution a living document? Sure it is. Was it intended to turn on a dime and change with every passing fad? No. There is a process that allows it to evolve and thankfully that process only comes into play rarely and during times of great pressure. To deny that the constitution is a living document is to assume that that it was created in it's current form. Amendments happen. The 18th comes to mind. It was created by man, practiced by man, and defended by man. As such, it is not perfect. It is not supernatural. It will change... eventually. In our lifetime? I don't know. Will it be better or worse? I don't know. Is it the best framework for a system of government known to man? Absolutely. | ||
| Spatten1 |
This pains me, but Buell Girl is right about this. Statistically our population is becoming more urban and suburban, and less rural, by the percentage of population. Also city folks and suburbanites tend to be less enthusiastic about guns, also statistically. It sucks, but it's true. Even if hunters or rural gun enthusiasts increase, the urban population increases more, and so do the urban voters. The only chance we have is that the senate gives out of proportion representation to the less populated states. I think the framers had this well thought out. I have to drive way too far to take my kids hunting but I still do. My neighbors don't bother with the hassle. We're gonna have problems in the future. | ||
| Chellem |
Even if we concede that there may be fewer hunters in the country, based on anecdotal evidence that some are personally witnessing less hunting and the fact that there is less wild area to hunt upon, the basis for her argument was that the second amendment was going out the window because fewer people are hunting. Because hunters are old and kids aren't into it. Because once this generation of gun-lovers dies off, no one will step up and replace them. That's our harsh reality? I don't see the direct line there. Hunting and protecting oneself are two completely separate events, often requiring completely different weapons. Just to refresh everyone's memory: You guys don't know it, but you're losing the demographic battle. The overbearingly staunch defenders of the 2nd amendment tend to be in, to put it politely, the autumn of there lives. By the next presidential election, there number will have dropped by over 10%. The young people who will replace them in the voting booth have no positive relationship with guns. They have no place to hunt, the guys at the local firing range turn them off, and they largely live in cities where guns are seen as a problem rather than an asset. Sorry, that's the reality, and the demographics aren't going to change soon if ever. (Still waiting for a link supporting these demographics, BTW.) The statistics quoted in the above article from CNN DO NOT bear out this theory. Voter attitude toward the 2nd amendment and gun control is changing - but it's not going toward more control, quite the opposite. Never mind the recent spike in gun and ammo purchases. So for whatever reason people are buying guns and more interested in protecting their right to bear arms - even if they're not actively hunting with them - the "demographic" does not seem to be dying out or even in the autumn of their lives. Hunt or don't hunt. I don't hunt. But I still want to be allowed to protect myself, and so I still want to be permitted to own a gun. ->ChelleM | ||
| Court |
The urban / rural thing has little to do with it once you get past the "gun rack in the pickup" stereotype. Having lived in Kansas and New York City has given me a keen sense of how gun ownership is viewed in two distinct areas. Gun sales (legal sales) are at record highs . . but then . . so are illegal which are nearly all to young people. | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
I firmly agree that the second amendment is NOT about hunting or sporting. However, you have to recognize it was the hunting/sporting/NRA lobby that has been defending gun rights all these years. Yes, there are those that don't hunt that desire to arm themselves - but that portion of the gun-using population has not been the majority in the past. It was the hunting/sporting group that did the heavy lifting in regards to defending the 2nd. Another way to look at this is that both Chellem and Bgrrrl are correct. If the defense of the 2nd amendment continues to rely on the hunting faction as it has in the past, its days are numbered. As a percentage of the population, I can't believe that the hunters aren't on the decline. As those recreational users fade, the 'personal protection' and 'liberty defenders' had better step up. Chellem seems to think that they are. That's great. I for one haven't witnessed this transition so will bow to the experts. Personally, I fall into the self-defense and anti-tyrany camp myself. Haven't hunted in years. Don't have much desire to kill anymore. (but don't mistake lack of motivation for lack of ability)  this olde trooper still knows to keep his powder dry. Ya'll have a good one! Thats all I got to say about that. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Randy/Greenlatrine (isn't Greenlatrine an oxymoron in ecospeak?), "2 months in political time is like 20 in technology time." You are obviously WAAAY behind the times. The current crop of politicians have the ability to change directions faster than a blow fly stuck between two window panes. G | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Court, I hope you're right. Can't say I have much experience in the 'big city.' Guess I'm still a victim of the stereotype mentality. | ||
| Cochise |
Seems like Buellgrrl got her/himself a dictionary with the word Demographic in it and wanted to try it out on us here uneducated folks | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Iam a genXer and ever since I can remember a handful of people I know are active hunters and hunting is season is big news in Ohio. I do not hunt nor does anyone in my family. I was introduced to guns by the constitution and a general desire to have a tool to keep myself and family safe. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Buelliegrrrl, Repeating your moronic statements over and over again won't make them true. Lots and lots of young people shoot guns and thank God they do. Trolls don't want us to bear arms? Back under the bridge, trollb****, the billy goats are armed! | ||
| P_squared |
The demographic for the DFW area skews the argument. Lawful gun sales & CCW permit requests from 1st time gun-owners are through the roof. All from those 'yuppy suburban scum'. I talk to folks all the time who have never before owned a firearm, until VERY recently, who have 'migrated' here from all over. Maybe they're the exception to the 'rule'? Or more likely, they're the next wave of 2nd Amendment defenders. And before someone goes nuts, let me explain a few things about DFW: 1) Majority of the Dallas portion of the population in the 'burbs are NOT 'native Texans'. 2) DFW population has been growing pretty significantly & steadily (1 of the fastest growing areas of Fortune 500 company headquarters) So, a lot of folks moving to the state from all over the place, buying guns & ammo like you wouldn't believe, and getting CCW permits like they're the 'it' fashion accessory. Yup, it's good to be in TX.  | ||
| Aesquire |
The lack of new hunters has increased the Deer accident rate. The demographics are depressing. Fewer farm kids, fewer family farms, fewer people with a clue on real world ecology. There is no legitimate sporting purpose for cities. They pollute, cause unnatural social strain, have a higher crime, murder & suicide rate. etc. etc. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Based on my local perspective, central Maryland, one has to drive a fair distance to do anything with a gun. I can't walk down the street to the woods and hunt or target shoot. However, my local gun shop has been selling all types of firearms at a blistering pace for years and I bet the majority of those sales are for self-defense. I hear what Buellgrrl is saying and it sounds logical but that doesn't mean she's correct. Sometimes, things are counter-intuitive. If one looks at gun control over the past few years starting with the election loss of Al Gore and the passing of "right to carry" laws in 40 states the trend is in favor of gun owners. Gun sales are up !! | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Isnt this all just carry over from the angst of loosing the "Harley Davidson is over the Hill" arguement? I got a gun, and a bike, you can have one when you take the other from me. Now go pander your silly syllogism elsewheres | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
And when Obama doesn't take your guns away, what else you gonna have to whine about? Change happened, get with it! | ||
| Aesquire |
And when Obama doesn't take your guns away, what else you gonna have to whine about? I will thank the gods of your choice that I was wrong. Nothing would make me happier than for Barack Obama & his admin not to be the totalitarian A-holes they told their base they were going to be, and have been in the past. Thrilled. Change happened, get with it! Bull crap. Do not go gentle into that dark night. Rage! Rage! against the dying of the light. | ||
| Court |
>>>Change happened, get with it! Actually . . it didn't. Change was PROMISED . .. but so was:
No have materialized; in fact the opposite appears. Even the leaders of foreign nations, when Obama showed up wanting only two things, blew him off. | ||
| Dbird29 |
David Axelrod, White House Senior Advisor, on "Fact The Nation" said the AWB was not dead but just waiting for a Congressional consensus to allow it to be brought up. Time to make sure there will be no Congressional consensus. | ||
| Aesquire |
The "reset" button given to Putin that actually said "overcharge". The slam on the British PM with the DVD's & no joint press conference. Multiple declarations of good intent & peaceful wishes to Islamic radicals & the universal response from same that he's an idiot sucker to be destroyed. Now not getting the Prez. the word that the book given by Chavez is NOT Chavez's egomaniac autobiography to be responded to with Barack's multiple Autobiographies, but a public declaration of loathing for the exploitation of the S. American people by European Colonialists & N. American devils. ( and public speeches declaring the latest U.S. leader to be a fool & a sucker.....Before & after the stupidly hopeful meeting. damn I hate it when he's right ) Why do any of the State dept. cretins still have a job? Seriously. What's next? Nuking the Duchy of Grand Fenwick? | ||
| Dbird29 |
OMG "The Mouse That Roared" reference. Haven't read that book in 30 years. That is a Dennis Miller caliber reference.  | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Nice to have you guys around to bring up the tail end of the parade of progress and provide some humor. FWIW I looked up some numbers on concealed carry permits issued. Here in MN. after 5 years barely 1% of the population has applied for a permit. As for a sudden surge in interest in guns & ammo, no where near as many permits are being renewed as were issued 5 years ago... Clearly concealed carry is not the kind of mainstream issue that swings an election. The numbers out of Texas are even more striking, as Texas provides more data on applicant demographics. Their stats are telling- white men make up about 35% of Texas population, but hold over 70% of the concealed carry permits. Men hold over 80% of the permits, and the most previlent age of a permit holder? 60! If the republican party thinks they're going to make a comeback on the issue of gun access, they're badly mistaken- those old white guys are already voting republican and they're getting close to their life expectancy anyway. Among the demographics the republicans need to gain support from- youth, minorities, and women- gun issues aren't important and if anything the republican party's love affair with the firearms fetishists is driving these voters away. | ||
| Court |
Thank goodness that folks who voted for Obama are heading to the Republican party and he continues to befuddle them with more broken promises. He tried appointing another guy last week . . OOOPs . . .another person under investigation for corruption. You couldn't fuqthings up this bad if you tried. | ||
| Loki |
Buellgrrrl, using CC stats from Minnesota is very misleading. It is an OPEN carry state! So yes the CC numbers will be lower. Give us the real numbers on the total permits issued/renewed. The process is also subjective to the jurisdiction one lives in. With the way the local Sheriff/Chief of Cops works with or against the process of obtaining and renewing a permit. I am a native "puddle jumper" and watch what happens back home in regards to this. As a transplant to Arkansas, we are a shall issue state with regards to CC. In the past two months, just short of 10,000 new CHCLs were issued. You really want to compare numbers? Use just the six states that do not allow any form of "open carry". Then narrow those six down to just the ones that openly allow "concealed carry". | ||
| Court |
And . . if you can . . try to estimate the huge number of folks who just carry anyway. It's a right that the shall not be infringed upon so you can be that number is significant
You CAN make a law that says I have to carry it on my right or left. You CAN NOT make a law that "infringes" on my RIGHT to "keep and bear arms". It's fairly simple. Of course. . . there are laws that say we must pay taxes too and over 50% of the Obama appointees missed that memo, | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Buellgrrrl, I have read about you here many times, even one well placed link to AVD board, and all I ever find from your posts is nonsensical BS. Truly, we all have our moments of ridiculous statements, but I think you live constantly in that moment, regardless of what you think or seem to "know" I am gonna let you in on a little secret ok? Minorities, women, young people of all categories move through life and go from liberal to conservative as they make more money and see their money shoveled out to those that don't work. Period. Only those that are born to it and rarely those that made that money themselves stay on the liberal path. If you think guns and the 2nd Amendment will not swing elections, wait for 2010, this is history repeating itself again, just like in 1994, I was 24 then and that is when I moved from being a bit more liberal in my views to more conservative in my views. Why? Bill Clinton and the democrats passed the assault weapons ban in his first two years of office and Newt Gingrich and the rest of the neo-con's of the day produced the contract for america. They were right, and look what happened to this country once they were able to take the Congress back in 1994. We boomed in many areas, we had a budget surplus as late as 1999 and all was well with the world, in most cases. I don't think you are really as dim as you come off...but I could be wrong on that, but truly look at the cycle that has been our political system for 200+ years, he(Obama) is a one term President at best, if he can make that without impeachment. Guns are what provided the freedom to this country from the British Empire in 1776, and that right to keep and bear arms is held so that no government can oppress the general population because they cannot defend themselves. I think you need a history lesson. Many in fact....from the way you seem to be so happy with our current administration, I would lay a good sum of money that you are one "taking" from the collective fund, not contributing...most bottom feeders are like that I have seen.... |
