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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through April 07, 2009 » Here we go...SECDEF at it again « Previous Next »

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Spdkls
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i'm not going to post the whole article, here it is in a nutshell. lets spend money on the fight we have now, so when the next big thing happens in the future, we won't be prepared!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_on_go_ca_st _pe/defense_budget
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Bill0351
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 06:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"The nation should stop pouring billions into futuristic, super-expensive F-22 jet fighters, pull the plug on new presidential helicopters and put the money into systems U.S. soldiers can use against actual foes"

Amen and +1
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Spdkls
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

all the money in the world won't see a IED or a suicide attack.

until we restructure the LOAC, we will never really win. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban do not fear us the way the should. if they did, this would have been over long ago.

yes, we have the best overall military. no one should dispute that, but until we put fear into the hearts of the terrorists, we will just stay ahead.
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99savage
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The F-22 is a money pit. We are getting them at the expense of more able systems (and getting damn few of them at that)

We do need a new ground support aircraft, not another helicopter. A-10 is able but dated & functioning in a role it was not designed for.

We should be working on a smaller & less expensive air dominance fighter.

Do need a new transport but not sure the one on the boards is the one we need.

Hope that somebody actually does a force review staffed entirely by O-5 & 6. Current Flag Officers play Congress like a piano. (Might as well wish for a pony while I am at it.)
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Bill0351
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"Hope that somebody actually does a force review staffed entirely by O-5 & 6"

I would agree if it included at least half E-5 & 6 (E-4 for USMC).
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

We should be working on a smaller & less expensive air dominance fighter

How are we going to build a plane that dominates the sky for less money and smaller, to boot? Unmanned? If you want the best you gotta pay !!

A-10 is able but dated & functioning in a role it was not designed for.

Huh?? It was designed to do exactly what it's doing - close air support. Besides that, the AF is currently upgrading the fleet. What would you like A-10's to do that they aren't?
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Johnnylunchbox
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I present the new air superiority fighter plane.

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Sayitaintso
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Bill, I don't know about your experience, but i wouldn't give a plug nickel for most of the E-5 and E-6's that I ran across while I was in. Seemed to me that the E-6 to E-7 promotion is where most of the bone heads got weeded out. The O-5 and O-6 seems about right though. Seemed like officers had to have a good head on their should to make O-5 and really good to make O-6.......of course to make it past that it was politics and their heads went right back out the window.


Just my opinion though.
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Bill0351
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 11:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Totally the opposite opinion that I have. I met very few officers that I thought had anything but self interest at heart. The officers who made it above Captain seemed bound and determined to forget everything they experienced on the ground and started making irrational theory based decisions that the guys on the ground then had to suffer through.

I have very little use for most of the officers I have dealt with.

The E-6 to E-7 promotion seemed to accomplish the same thing. They stopped being small unit leaders and started being CYOA politicians.

If someone is talking about infantry tools, I want real dirty grunts in on the decisions. The same goes for pilots and EOD. Ask the guys who use the stuff for a living whether it needs replacing or if it's perfect as is.

The M2 .50 comes to mind. I can just see a zillion dollar project come down the line to replace that weapon when there is no reason in the world to mess with it.

Keep in mind, my opinions are from a limited perspective. I have no idea what any of the pogue MOS sergeants are like. I was a grunt, who was trained by some of the finest Marine Corps grunt sergeants you could hope to meet. (I also met some really decent Army guys on my last deployment.)
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Sayitaintso
Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I was artillery, I guess it really has to do with MOS and time in grade.....I was refering to the E-5's with 12 years and the E-6's with 15+...... I'm sure you know the type I'm talking about. The kind that could slip through PLDC and B-NOC but were toast when it came to A-NOC. Couldn't read a map to save their life, always seemed to just barely qualify on the range but sure as hell knew how to bust your balls when boots came unbloused when working.

The place seemed to be crawling with them
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99savage
Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Big problem is the A/F is in love w/ strategic bombing but modern warfare is mostly rifle against rifle – aircraft against aircraft.
Paid a big penalty in Viet Nam by making do w/ aircraft mostly intended to drop bombs, everybody got hurt. Infantry had to depend on very vulnerable helicopters for support. A/F had to settle for a 2:1 kill ratio against the NV aging MIG 15 & 17’s. Big F-4’s were superior in every technical respect & flown by much better pilots but they were big & made black smoke.
In manned air combat the one that gets seen 1st usually gets dead 1st, doubly true if there are more of them than there are of you.
F-22 honkin big & depending on stealth technology that will probably be defeated by the time it is operational & true to A/F doctrine it is designed to carry bombs.
Don't have the statistics right & hand but is so GD expensive we will never be able to afford enough of them to get into a shooting war w/ China or Russia and don't need a high tech platform for anybody else.
Hit the drawing board again – Think the F-16 & the “fighter mafia” (mostly one O-5 who managed to get just the right job @ the Pentagon @ just the right time). The F-16 was designed for air superiority only & incidentally can carry bombs. Air-To-Air nothing would have stood a chance against it.
A-10 was a cold war tank buster. When there were no tanks to bust the A/F as usual wanted to avoid the close air support role & tried to take it out of service. Terrific aircraft but really big target to be loitering around a battlefield where you can not fix the location of the bad guys. Would be terrific if its replacement could land on improvised runways & stay w/ the infantry.
We have a big problem. By an act of Congress the Army can not have fixed wing airplanes bigger the Birdogs. The Army makes do w/ helicopters that are vulnerable, thirsty & expensive. The A/F gives the Army what they feel like giving them which does not include organic close air support or air transport.
The Marines have less of a problem but pretty much have to live w/ planes the A/F selects for their own reasons. (Tho they have done themselves less than proud w/ the Osprey. Neat concept but flying into a hot LZ armed w/ one 0.30 cal!)
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Malott442
Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Robotics are the future of warfare...... Robots could be the first in a room, on a field, in the airspace. A 100k dollar drone is far less expensive than a 250k invested soldier, plus the morale factor. If we divert money into robotics now, the technology will drop in price.

I think that utilizing a comprehensive array of the best performing military would be beneficial in making decisions on the budget. I've known a few E-6's that were E-9 material, but a stupid mistake that they made as an E-3 or E-4 prevents them from ever making E-7. E-7's are not immune from having an occaisional twat in the ranks. Prior enlisted officers usually have a good head on their shoulders, and with 0-6's it is usually a good shot that they are pretty well rounded. This is speaking for the USN only. The most amazing, dedicated, smartest, hardest working person I have met in my whole life was CMDR D.J. Kern. I'm sure he has made 0-6 or beyond by now, but he knew every facet of every person's job on 4 classes of subs, and knew every weld, switch, and valve in all of them as well. He didn't get advanced sooner because he was a sea-loving commander. he would refuse land stations so he could stay on the front line. That brings up an idea-r.... why not an appointed board based on performance and independant subordinate reviews?

I can tell you now, and everyone knows that a person's service record only shows 1/2 at best of who they were. I left the Navy E-5, 6 years with a 3.0 eval (horrible) and 9 medals. 3 NJP's to boot. Why? Because I'm a devout person of character, and didn't allow myself to succumb to the pressures of corruption and stood behind my crew to a fault. I left the Navy because I was too old school. I actually wanted to work and serve in a branch of the military, not be a pawn in some corporate B.S. pansy party.

I have to stop now, I've said too much. NCIS will be sending a sniper out, I've exposed the conspiracy! LOL
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