| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
If an IL4 wins, they will chalk it up to rider skill and that Eslick couldn't win a race were he not on a "juiced" bike. They will continue to discount Higbee and other Buell teams when they don't win. If they do win, it'll be because of the bike. It's a no win scenario. | ||
| Greenlantern |
If an IL4 wins, they will chalk it up to rider skill and that Eslick couldn't win a race were he not on a "juiced" bike. They will continue to discount Higbee and other Buell teams when they don't win. If they do win, it'll be because of the bike. It's a no win scenario. Ok, which one do you want to be?   | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Neither. Who want's to be a KTM? | ||
| Greenlantern |
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| Court |
>>>were he not on a "juiced" bike. I'd love to see them open Eslick's bike . . I have a feeling that, in addition to the motor, some eyes would be opened. The motor is bone stock. It's nice in that if he had to replace it he could go in any local dealer and pick up a motor. Court | ||
| Blublak |
I have a simple solution to the whole mess.. Let's add two more classes.. we'll call them.. 600cc SUPERDUPERBike.. Anything goes, any type of parts, any tuning. The only rule is you must not use more then 600cc engine displacement. Team that brings the biggest wallet... wins. And. RACE OF CHERRIOS oops.. CHAMPIONS. Each round is run on a different brand bike. Each bike is IDENTICAL ABSOLUTELY BONE STOCK FROM THE LOCAL DEALERSHIP The winner is the team that has a rider that passes the finish line first after 20 laps. The teams each get the bike on Friday when a bike is pulled from the truck and has their number put on it. They then get Friday afternoon for practice and suspension set up. Then the bike is locked back inside the truck until, Saturday when they get their second set of tires and more practice time and then a last set of tires for the day for qualifying. Yep, then back in the truck until, Sunday and they all get a full tank of gas, a set of tires and a green flag. After the race, each rider/team can sign the bike and it's returned to the dealer for sale to joe public (pre-broken in  )} | ||
| Danny_h__jesternut |
First off I do not follow/watch AMA/DMG racing. I quit caring about AMA road racing many years ago. Our national motorcycle road racing orginazation has been and still is the bigest LOL there is. This is the BIG time American racing. Thats the sad joke LOL? If I wanted to see club racing, with a crazy mixed up sport bike grouping that makes no sence I would go to a WEAR/ASRA/CCS club race. But I'll bet not one of the local club racing orginazations would allow this 1000cc vs 600cc. This stupid class offers nothing to any factory, its a everybody looses class. If the twins win, 600s cry displacement Boo Hoo. If the 600s win, twins cry works factories aginst stock street bikes looks bad too. Boo hoo. Nobody wins. So Aprilia's 10 year old 60* v-twin Rotax design must be so much better than Buell's 2 year old 72* v-twin Rotax design, that explanes why Buell gets 125cc on Aprilia? Yes I know the Millie is in house and been tweeked refined jest a bit over the years, but still? So desmo is still that much better that they get an even bigger handy cap? What about KTM? Can I run a RC51? That would be fair its also a 10 year old design? Sorry if I up set/offend anyone/pee-in your cherrios. Jest my humble opinion on the sad state of affairs that American road racing is in.  | ||
| Easy_rider |
And what's the best argument to use against someone ragging on the Buell? I tend to point at the volume of air going through the cylinder. In overly simplified terms, they're equal. There's lot's of ways to get the same job accomplished. A whole lot tougher to make sure the effort is "equal". | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"But I'll bet not one of the local club racing orginazations would allow this 1000cc vs 600cc." You'd lose that bet... WERA rules allow me to run my 1203cc vs 600cc. | ||
| M2nc |
I tend to point at the volume of air going through the cylinder. WERA rules allow me to run my 1203cc vs 600cc. Please, please. Do not confuse facts when someone is in the middle of an emotional rant. If you are trained to think one way and someone comes along and tells you it doesn't have to be that way, it definitely upsets your apple cart. Let them babble mindlessly. By the way, take a look at the rules for the American Lemans Series. Engine displacement does not dictate class. Heck these cars do not even run on the same fuel. Some cars run on alcohol, some on gas and some on diesel. Some cars have 8.0l v-10, Some cars have 6.0l V-8, some cars have 4.3l V-12s, some cars have flat sixes. Some cars are turbo-charged, some cars are not. This series matches rules with other similar organizations around the world that have been going since 1923 and they combined are considered the premier series of all auto racing. So please, if the cagers have been doing this for more than eighty years, why can't motorcycle racing? Just because our vehicles are narrow, doesn't mean our minds have to be. | ||
| Spdkls |
600cc SUPERDUPERBike.. Anything goes, any type of parts, any tuning. The only rule is you must not use more then 600cc engine displacement. Team that brings the biggest wallet... wins already have it. add 200cc's and call it moto gp. | ||
| Hr_puffinstuff |
I tend to point at the volume of air going through the cylinder. In overly simplified terms, they're equal. There's lot's of ways to get the same job accomplished.  i think the real story here is how little the "average" AMA road racing fan knows about racing. the "grip it and rip it" crowd needs to do their homework. | ||
| Xlcrguy |
"But I'll bet not one of the local club racing orginazations would allow this 1000cc vs 600cc." You'd lose that bet over and over. Look up the CCS rules for Heavyweight Superbike: Twin Cylinder, liquid Cooled 4 Valves per Cylinder, up to 1150 cc and Four Cylinder liquid Cooled up to 820 cc. BTW, I raced my Honda RS125 GP Single against 1203cc Buells in CCS (Lightweight Superbike) | ||
| Benm2 |
Depending on how this is looked at, it doesn't really indicate that the playing field has been leveled. If Hacking's Kawi has been taken to the limits of the Daytona Sportbike rules, but the Buell isn't close, doesn't that indicate that the rule are in fact biased? For example, if Buell worked the motor according to the rules (valve job, machine head, allowed polishing, etc) wouldn't additional hp be freed up? It gives the appearance of Buell soft-pedaling, IMHO. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
If Hacking's Kawi has been taken to the limits of the Daytona Sportbike rules, but the Buell isn't close, doesn't that indicate that the rule are in fact biased? Possibly. If the Buell motor WERE taken to the same levels of tune as the 600s are, then they might open the gap more than would be "fair". As it stands, there are basically stock Buells running against highly tuned 600s. This would indicate very little if any peak HP difference negating the unfairness. An engine rework for Buell would put the bike in Superbike territory. What I'd like to see is a stronger tuned 1000cc in Sportbike and a stronger tuned 1199RR in Superbike. I'd love to see the resurgence of the RC51 platform for Sportbike. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I think Danny Jesternut has a point...really is the problem racing a buell or is the problem the new NASCAR/AMA rules? Seriously, look at the thread that has the race on a video and you will see NO ONE in the stands to watch this race in California for pete's sake....motorcycle heaven, I have seen Kids Supermoto races with more fans in the seats....there was a time when motorcycle racing dominated the american racing landscape, I know hard to believe, but there was that time and in fact that time produced the term 1% er as the president of the AMA at the time made the comment that only 1% of the members were a problem. So there ya go, there also was a time when Bike Week in Daytona was about the RACE!! Before my time for sure, but the stands were filled, the beach course was packed, look the real problem is with how the AMA handles the largest motorcycle market in the world as far as racing and promoting racing. I only shudder to think that DMG will next want the Supercross series to have rolling starts and a pace cockroach (four wheeler) and phantom cautions so when Bubba or Chad slip away from the field they can stop them and tighten it back up, just like that phantom caution at Daytona. Why is it WSBK and MotoGP can put capacity crowds in the stands all over the world (except a rain soaked Indianapolis speedway) have premier riders, huge fan base, excellent TV package (except for the US) and yet still with an 8 time champion that may be the best road racer to ever live in Valentino Rossi never make sportscenter, but women's freestyle curling will have a live coverage time slot???? If the AMA took a page from what WSBK and MotoGP are doing and have done or even British Superbike for that matter, there could be some excellent racing in the states with a large fan base, an event that people WANTED to attend. Why force manufacturers to build a separate engine for this series as opposed to using the specs of WSBK and allow them to cut costs and produce the same bike for this series? What is up with rolling starts? "Safety Cars" and the like? After Daytona I know regardless of whether or not a Buell is in the field in Sportbike or Superbike I will not attend the races I used to attend, no Barber, no Road Atlanta and I will never again go the race at Daytona as long as DMG pulls the strings. I could care less if the AMA moved heaven and Earth for Harley-Davidson to make their lack of effort in racing competitive, I would attend to watch if the racing was MOTORCYCLE racing and not a two wheel version of NASCAR. I turned down a free ticket from my company for the NASCAR Daytona 500 race with the Caterpillar Hospitality tent because I cannot stand that racing. Others like it, fine, enjoy!! But to completely ruin what was a series on life support anyway makes no sense..... /off my soapbox..... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I would really like to attend a race at Barber, Road Atlanta, Daytona. I have never been to a live race. Before this year, I had seen three races on TV. Ever. So far, I have watched every race I can get my eyes on. I don't think I am alone. For every "purist" leaving in a huff 10 new fans are entering. I hardly think that 3 races a season makes. Daytona was a goat screw with signaling, the safety car, etc. The next two races seemed to be better sorted out. How screwy was football the first time they tried using instant replay for calls? It isn't like the stands are empty because of DMG. The stands were empty anyway because the race series was as exciting as melba toast. I didn't care to watch. Few others did either. Now a race series with lots of controversy that includes a mix of great bikes and riders getting pissy and getting fined and suspended. That sounds like racing. It isn't like they are losing the IL4, Big Four fans. They weren't bothering to be in the stands or watch on TV anyway. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Ft_bstrd There was a time when you went to Daytona and the big bore machines would scream balls deep out of the highbanks three abreast and drafting like crazy with the guy that was in tenth no leading and he will probably be back in tenth by the time they come out of the infield and back on to the straight. That was amazing racing, the 200 has been a worthless race since the 600's took over as the bike for that race, it used to be (waxing nostalgic) the most exciting race of the year, passing, tight packs of riders, on Suzuki's or not, grouped together an flying, the sound was amazing, the smell of burning race fuel, the speed at which they would fly by as you just try and catch a glimpse of who is leading at that second. The third place man on the last lap had the advantage, if he drafted right it was a drag race to the line....but now....it is the broken gasping mess that was a historic and respected race that attracted racers and fans from around the world....it is a tape delay broadcast on a channel many people don't even get......go to Barber and see the museum, stand inches from the Britton, see steam powered motorcycles, NSR 750 oval piston fire breathing dragons, and just soak up the overall beauty of one of the finest facilities you will ever come across, esthetically and technically, but don't expect to see great racing from the AMA there.....if you really want great racing, go see a flat track event before DMG ruins that too..... | ||
| Dbird29 |
I was amazed at how few fans were in the stands when I attended the Daytona AMA race.... in 1989. A little to convenient to blame DMG for decades of poor attendance. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
That's why I love the XB platform. It's the motorcycle equivalent of a 1978 Trans Am. It reeks of gasoline and primary fluid and sounds like hell. Unfortunately, UJM Inc. has provided fast, strong, high quality sewing machines that have a huge following. A race without them usually means a race without fans. I see what DMG doing is trying to recapture some of the previous glory AND keep the IL4 teams involved. Yeah it's rough and not very pretty, but that will work itself out in time. I can't think of any platform any more raw and visceral than Buell. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Dbird, I am not blaming DMG for at series on life support, I am blaming them for putting in the coffin nail on what has been a mismanaged series by the AMA. Trying to make it more like NASCAR just turns my stomach. It was weak before, and it is dead or dying now..... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It was weak before, and it is dead or dying now..... It isn't like they are messing up a good thing. If it works, great! If it doesn't and the series dies completely, great! I don't see them trying to make it like NASCAR just because of rolling starts and safety cars. | ||
| Court |
>>>I am not blaming DMG for at series on life support Can you tell me a year in which there was so much enthusiasm and support? I'd say they hit the series with a direct shot of much needed adrenaline. Try seeing how long you can go without looking at the Atlanta results next weekend. | ||
| Benm2 |
Ft_b - Go to Road Atlanta or Barber, they are better for spectators. At RA, hang out by the Suzuki bridge & you get a nice view of T10a/10b, a sharp left / right at the end of the longest straight, with an exciting downhill braking zone. Barber is in a class by itself, there are a lot of great places around the track to see the action, plus the museum. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Court, I can go for the rest of my life without looking at the results from Atlanta...WSBK will be back in action, MotoGP starts the 12th of April, going to Jacksonville saturday to watch Supercross and again to Vegas on May 2nd for the Supercross finale and the East-West Lites shootout, plenty of good racing to watch as opposed to this current AMA configuration. I admire you all for trying to get up for it, and the whole "change is good" mentality, you are more optimistic than I am, more than Ben Spies was and more than a few writers that cover the sport are....but they lost one enthusiast....so who cares right? As Ft_bstrd explained 10 will replace me, great, and to Ft_bstrd rolling starts and a safety car IS NASCAR, so..there ya go. I have an American to root for in WSBK, great racing between Biaggi on the new Aprilia(I have a soft spot for them as I have worked for that company) Nitro Nori trying to do his best Troy Bayliss impression, Nuekircher and another American in John Hopkins starting next race on a Honda riding for Stiggy, so I will be rapt on real motorcycle racing until the winter comes and I substitute football until spring...the series here in the states was fascinating, Mert Lawill and Dick Mann, Dave Aldana and many others racing for a true Grand National riding TT's, flat track, and road racing events, they were the series, that championship was THE one to have....now it is just a shell, and there is no Supermoto series in the states, Benny Carlson is racing FIM, Daryl Atkins is helping him, Jeff Ward is without a ride as well as my favorite Micky Dymond...Roger Edmundson wants endurance racing on spec machines with spec tires just like NASCAR, Moto GT (formally ST) is his thing, now he has the power to kill off the rest of the racing to get what he wants.....Court you seem to be connected, call a few promoters, I am sure can get the numbers with your contacts, ask them directly if they like the changes, why would almost all factory support leave the AMA if they were enthused about racing, why would the MIC try to create a series to compete with full manufacturer support if DMG was doing such a bang up job? Why was Miller Motorsports dropped off the schedule? That is probably the best venue out there next to Barber and Laguna, if it were not for a wedding that weekend I would be in Utah watching Ben Spies put the smackdown on that track....dissent breeds competition in my book, and competition is what the AMA needs, I hope the MIC can muster the effort, get the series going, I will go to as many of their races as I can make, I was even more P.O.'d about the cancellation of the AMA flat track event in volusia during bike week, Edumudson's press release said nothing as to why...that was near sell out crowd last year....anyway, we can agree to disagree or not, but I don't see how this is going to help racing in America. Think Mladin is happy about the change? Hacking? Some show support but most others are just looking for a way out....in my humble opinion..... | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Court, I can tell you a year when many were enthused, the Year Nicky took his RC51 and the title to Owensboro, then he took probably the best talent in America (barring Ben Spies today) to Europe and I quote said " I would never want to race in the states again other than flat track, the energy is so much different in Europe" so there ya go. American riders were paid very well to race here too, very well compared to other national titles, think that will continue if the factories don't want to directly support a series?????? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
As Ft_bstrd explained 10 will replace me, great, and to Ft_bstrd rolling starts and a safety car IS NASCAR, so..there ya go. If that's all that it takes to create NASCAR, there isn't much to NASCAR. No one has stated the positives of the rolling starts, warmer tires and no first corner goat screw. The safety car is great as long as the signaling is worked out. | ||
| Court |
I'm not old enough to remember that. I hope this series gets to be as much fun as back when I sponsored a Grand National Dirt Track effort . . . I loved that! | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Ft_bstrd, Review the interview with Josh Hayes when he said his tired cooled while following the safety car and it on those cool tires he lost traction, a 6 second lead and highsided...I don't think a rolling start at that speed puts any heat into the tire a warmer couldn't put in, and the goat screw in the first corner is the BEST part of motorcycle racing, maybe you have never raced, but that is the part I looked forward to the most banging bars, trying to get that holeshot, packing twenty bikes into a lane made for two or three to safely go through, that is the most exciting part of racing...and no there is not much to NASCAR. PS ask Tommy Aquino if the safety car is great...I don't think he would agree with you..... | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Court, I am not trying to trade barbs with you, you asked, I answered, that was the most recent that I remember, now my father can tell you of the heady days of "lucifer's hammer" and king Kenny drinking all night and racing like hell all day, 750 two strokes and the American GP series, Freddie Spencer and Mike Hailwood....I was just a toddler (some of those were when my older brothers were sucking in fumes, way before me) then sucking in race gas fumes like mother's milk. So either way, the Grand National isn't what it used to be, although Nicky has one more win to accomplish, a mile win I believe, to get a grand slam, he will join only four others with that coveted record. small fraternity. |
