| Author | Message | ||
     B00stzx3 |
One nations success comes at the detriment to other nations. America's just been good at holding onto that success. I'm a protectionist though so don't listen to my opinion! savage, as far as Democrats wanting cheap maids and pool boys, what about the pro-business Republicans who like cheap labor? The guys who own fast food and construction businesses. You think they wanna ship out there most loyal pool of labor? Dirty little secret, businesses need cheap labor, that means illegal immigrants. Everyones more than happy to grab a Big Mac from them until they start moving into the neighborhood. I never figured Dems as the most business minded when compared to their brethren across the aisle. | ||
| Limitedx1 |
ROUND TWO: WALMART.......GO!!!!  we as a people are no contest to all this big money. we are supposed to live in a democratic society, well then why is it everytime people start discussing something wether good or bad your side or mine, it always comes down to big people in charge making all the decisions solely on their own opinion. the words that comes out of average joes mouths translate to "pay me more taxes, give me more of your money" to every politician you can see....... | ||
| Oldog |
Several interesting comments, First from the Wictionary GREED Noun Singular greed (uncountable) A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions. His greed was his undoing. What drove them was their ambition, their greed for power. Synonyms(selfish desire for more than is needed): avarice, covetousness,greediness,rapacity Most news reports of "PLANT CLOSING -at blaah blaah OR LAYOFF at blaaaah blaaaaah" Seem to be aimed at triggering this US / THEM thinking, There are certainly Greedy business men and women, The broker that sets up a loan that they know that the customer can't repay so they can earn a bigger comission, The builder who uses minimum standard materials, and illeagle immigrant labor, then charges premium price for the job. Banker that writes the poloicy that if another creditcard in your name is in default they raise the rates on your card reguardless of why its in default. Charging 30% usury on loaned money Expecting a handsome paycheck, and then failing to properly do the job and the company that employes you in esscence failes ( this can be said of any one at any level ) On Courts comments Fire fighters and Police officers are under enormus stress at work, I do not see that as greed. The librarian WHOS HER BROKER!? If she negotiated that and earned her salarie, what justified that compensation? what was her anual salarie? I will never forget the line worker at Harley-Davidson, around 1989, who told me that Rich Teerlink was "underpaid" at $2,700,000. I tend to agree. The man who led the HD turnaround, HD's Lee Iococa the manager / leader that enspired change in the culture of the company that led to its revival, worth what he was paid YES...IMO ( work in a company with a toxic culture just once and you will understand ) Bank Prez of failed bank NO I have begun to seriously wonder if the media, acts responcibly any more. I also beleive that most honest and Saavy business men understand the value of talented employees, and pay as much as they can to retain them. In the end honesty and a little sense go a long way, | ||
| 99savage |
B00stzx3 must respectfully disagree w/ you "One nations success comes at the detriment to other nations." - Just ain't so. Trade CAN enhance both nations & usually does. We are all strong some places & weak others. - I am real good at making castings & some guy in Canada is way better than anybody in the world @ making fasteners. - W/o meeting we work together. Free trade makes both of us better off. He sells me quality fasteners @ a fair price & I sell finished products everyplace, including Canada for less than anybody else can. I am super pro-Union. I want EVERY worker to have representation. - Currently our unions are fuzzy little Democratic lap-dogs. Lazy w/ no imagination. Of course I want cheap(er) labor - why are the Unions so hell bent on supplying it? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Learn to teach and speak a foreign language... with all the outsourcing, it really is about your only safe bet. I know when ever I need a lil extra cash, all I have to do is ring a few numbers and find the Russians that are in the courts, medical, or prison system... The state always pays me well in a pinch to translate. | ||
| Cowboy |
Att: Paw & Rocketsprink. As you have attacked me personaly for asking a legitament question, I will ask 2 more. 1. how far up the corporate ladder have you climbed? 2. Is the stock you perchased in the last yr.winning or looseing? | ||
| Limitedx1 |
 i didnt do it, but i think im gonna uncover my eyes for this! | ||
| Paw |
P_square do you live in York PA or any where close to the Cat plant that went threw that. You can do research on everything you want but you will never find details of the labor dispute...For over a year i personally witnessed and watched the local news during that time with interviews done by employees and union delegates and i believe what they said...Cat would never go on TV to dipute the unions claims they never once defended their position...It was always, Cat was not available for comment. Do you really think the employees are more at fault for what happened..The company wanted to take so much away from them it would benefit them to stay on strike and take the chance of losing their jobs they could have gotten another job for what the company wanted to take from them...The company knew what they were doing in locking them out and moving the operation out of York. They no longer had to pay them their huge salaries (that they agreed to pay them in good faith) and benifits...By moving the product they were paying others half or less to do the job with Crap for benefits. Tell me that is not greed!!! Think about this how many Companies truly want a union to work with? Cat found a way to bust the union and they succeeded. (Message edited by paw on February 23, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>>>One nations success comes at the detriment to other nations. That is inaccurate. >>>>Fire fighters and Police officers are under enormous stress at work, I do not see that as greed. I agree. I think it's outright dishonesty though that in their last year of employment they suddenly become "disabled". . . while disabled work like 30 hours of OT a week and then take disability retirement. I have tremendous respect for what they do but this is a con game. | ||
| P_squared |
Paw, no, I don't live there, and I was overseas at the time it occurred. But I find it 'curious' that Cat was on the brink of death in the 80's, twice, but that seems to not to be a factor in your version of the events? I would naturally assume that a company that nearly died twice would be looking for concessions from labor, as well as other cost cutting measures, to increase their profitability, wouldn't you? I don't hold the company blameless. I don't know all the FACTS. By that same token, I'm not buying the decision was PURELY to bust the union. A company can't afford to idle for a year while it's labor is on strike. The fact it went that long indicates to me that they probably did want a solution that didn't require them to move. Unfortunately, Labor & the company couldn't come to a mutually agreeable solution. The only people Cat owed any explanation for their decision to was the shareholders at that time. Not you, your friends, the media, or I. "Think about this how many Companies truly want a union to work with?" My opinion? It depends on BOTH the company & the union. Some get along quite well and are mutually beneficial. Some don't. My company, it's 'mixed' based upon which local I'm dealing with. Some regions, the company & union work together VERY well. Other regions, it takes an act of God to get things done because, "It's not in the contract." My point in all of this is very simple: There is no SINGLE point (corporation/shareholder/government/consumer) that is the ROOT CAUSE of these decisions. It's very easy to point the finger & blame a single group for the decision, until you see the full picture & understand all of the details. Without those FACTS to base an informed decision upon, how can you honestly say the cause is “CEO/shareholder/other greed”? | ||
| Strokizator |
GREED Noun Singular A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions. And just whom do you suggest gets to decide what I need or deserve? Are you touting "From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs"? Am I greedy if I buy my motorcycle from dealer B because dealer A wanted more money? Is dealer A greedy? Should I even buy a motorcycle because I already have 4 others? Does my purchase deprive some other poor soul the opportunity to buy one? Maybe I've got a lot of stuff. Stuff that I've bought from the proceeds of working very hard AFTER the gov't (state & local) gets theirs. The harder I work, the more they take. Call me anything you want but I'm not the greedy one. I am not the enemy. I'm also tired of labels. If you think the boss makes too much money then go out and start your own company and compete against him. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
They no longer had to pay them their huge salaries (that they agreed to pay them in good faith) and benifits...By moving the product they were paying others half or less to do the job with Crap for benefits. Tell me that is not greed!!! No, that is renegotiating wages and benefits to better reflect market prices. What you fail to see is the flip side of collective bargaining, the dark under belly. In my industry, there are guys who operating under contracts that current companies are not renewing. The market no longer provides for the pay scales these guys are paid under, but they honor these contracts because to break them would be to incite breech of contract litigation. When these people quit or retire, the replacement will not receive the same contract. There will be a new employment contract that will better reflect market rates. With collectively bargained employees, the company lacks the ability to negotiate on the wages paid to new employees. Companies are forced to utilized the pay scale dictated by the last round of negotiations. So instead of negotiating pay scales on an individual basis as people are hired, the company must take on the entire collectively bargained group in order to alter the pay scale. This means that ALL have their pay and benefits reduced rather than allowing the company to phase out higher paid and benefited employees as they quit or retire and hire in new workers at a more market reflective pay scale. Since the employees are within the union, the employee is not eligible to file suit under breech of contract with the company. Employees under the union are not afforded the same protection as an individual might be. When the company locks out the work force and brings in replacements, the employees have no recourse as a result of union affiliation. The perceived power of unions is the ability to apply pressure through work slow downs and stoppages to force an employer to meet demands (or honor pay and benefit scales that are no longer reflective of market rates). The problem is that the only real trump card the employer has, under collectively bargained arrangements, is to lock everyone out and bust the union. If the union won't budge, the company has only the nuclear option. The union makes negotiations more difficult and tenuous for the employees not easier. When the company calls the union's hand, the company gets blamed for being "greedy"? Who put the employees in that position the union or the company? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How about the "greed" of wanting to get paid to do NOTHING? How about the "greed" of wanting to be paid a wage that is SIGNIFICANTLY higher that what is justified for the job? How about the "greed" of not caring whether the company is profitable or not as long as YOUR pay check cashes the bank? How about the "greed" wanting the pay for your job to afford you a standard of living higher that what is justified for your job? | ||
| Paw |
A company can't afford to idle for a year while it's labor is on strike. The fact it went that long indicates to me that they probably did want a solution that didn't require them to move. Unfortunately, Labor & the company couldn't come to a mutually agreeable solution. You said they were in trouble in the 80's well this happened about 12 years later they recovered...I guess i should have mention this one small detail...after a few weeks of the strike Cat hired Hundreds of SCABS at $7 to $9 an hour to work next to the salaried to get the product out the door. So the plant did not sit idle...In most union agreement it is against the agreement to hire SCABS. Cat was in violation of the agreement for over a year and paid out severence packages for doing so. Now this is squashed, They busted that union!!! You want to do some research...Look up the plant manager and the CEO of cat for the York plant and see what you come up with you will find some real interesting articles on them about that plant if you search deep enough. Go to The York dispatch or The York daily record web sites and look threw their archives you might find something there. I'm done...Have a nice day! (Message edited by paw on February 24, 2009) | ||
| Slaughter |
Chocolate is STILL bad for you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I would STILL kill your grandmother for a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. | ||
| P_squared |
"I'm done...Have a nice day! " Thank you. I plan to, and it won't involve researching old papers. You believe the sole purpose was to bust the union. I don't believe that was the sole purpose. That is called a difference of opinion. Until you can provide FACTS to bolster your opinion, I see no reason to agree with your opinion. FACT: The only people Cat owed any explanation for their decision to was the shareholders at that time. Not you, your friends, the media, or I. Since you have already stated that Cat didn't explain their reasons to the media, WHY would I go looking through old papers for YOUR opinion? Either disprove my position with facts, or agree to disagree. | ||
| Bill0351 |
How about the "greed" of wanting to get paid to do NOTHING? (golden parachute) How about the "greed" of wanting to be paid a wage that is SIGNIFICANTLY higher that what is justified for the job? ($50,000,000 CEO) How about the "greed" of not caring whether the company is profitable or not as long as YOUR pay check cashes the bank? (Huge bonuses to executives of failing banks) How about the "greed" wanting the pay for your job to afford you a standard of living higher that what is justified for your job? (Redundant, but see $50,000,000 CEO comment above.) It's funny how rabidly you attack workers for "greed." Mention overpaid CEOs though? You instantly jump to their defense. I admit that I don't get it, but at least you're consistent! Keep up the good work! Bill | ||
| P_squared |
"The UAW refused to explain its surrender. It merely issued a perfunctory announcement to the press, never considering itself accountable to the working class public that has been following the Caterpillar strike for months. Not even the most corrupt corporate management operates with such flagrant irresponsibility and disdain toward its stockholders, employees and the general public. " "Nothing could more clearly expose the democratic pretensions of the UAW than this outrage against the membership. With this act, the UAW bureaucracy has demonstrated conclusively its real relationship to the working class and its own social character, i.e., a privileged upper-middle-class layer that uses its control of the union to defend its own parasitic interests, at the expense of the workers it claims to represent." "By ordering an unconditional return to work, the UAW has freed the company to impose its own terms." http://www.kentlaw.edu/ilhs/cat.htm Reads to me like the UAW sold out their members. | ||
| P_squared |
" Why has labor peace proven so elusive at Caterpillar? Wages and benefits aren't the problem. The economic differences between the union and company aren't insurmountable. The UAW is seeking a top maximum wage of $40,458 by late 1994. The company is offering $39,915. The union, in keeping with its long-held position on health insurance benefits, wants to keep the current health-care plan, a package that doesn't require any payments from workers. Caterpillar wants workers to pay a small monthly premium and use specific providers. But the real dispute arises out of a less tangible set of issues, which Caterpillar chief executive Donald Fites labels "the right to manage." He says the UAW, using the old practice of "pattern bargaining," tried to commandeer the company by demanding that it accept what rival Deere & Co. granted in its 1991 contract. If it had agreed to what Deere accepted, Caterpillar would have had to remain neutral if the union tried to organize the company's 2,000 nonunion factory employees, guarantee a specific number of union jobs, and give the union input on which jobs should be performed by outside suppliers. Fites insists he'll never agree to those demands." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n1_ v120/ai_13336745 Reads to me like Cat was bargaining on wages & healthcare, but drew the line at accepting the same contract as other companies, aka 'Pattern bargaining'. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Cat should run the border security.You ever try to "turn up" a Cat motor? That info is so privy that if it leaks out,somebody gets a pink slip before he can turn off his computer......... | ||
| Court |
>>>>It's funny how rabidly you attack workers for "greed." Like the UAW workers who demand and get paid 85% of their wages when they are NOT WORKING. It's note a labor or management, rep or dem thing . . . . dishonest is dishonest. I watched that speech last night and didn't know if I should cry or laugh. | ||
| Rfischer |
Neither. Dig a deep and well-concealed personal financial foxhole. I am. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Done. I'm free and clear. No debts. Pile of cash. Secure job and income. Guns & ammo. Fuel Storage and energy production device. Family secure. Bikes. That's done. Now, first race of the season VIR in March ... you know.... priorities.... The world can sort itself out, I'll just take care of my little part. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I admit that I don't get it, but at least you're consistent! Keep up the good work! As are you. In YOUR universe, CEOs are always greedy scumbags who don't deserve the wages they are paid and workers are always the pius, down trodden victims of a system out to exploit them. It grows tiresome. Furthermore, it's a dangerous mindset. That mindset WASN'T shared by the founding fathers of THIS country. It WAS shared by the founding principal of another nation though:  Like THIS "founding father", the purveyors of this mindset seek to utilize class envy to convince you to surrender your liberties to them in order to allow them to make things "fair". We are beginning to see the fruits of that mindset even today. | ||
| Court |
>>>I am. Done. Frankly, when Obama began to become a serious candidate (remember when the market started to fall?) and started preaching what he was going to do to Wall Street and taxes, I think many Wall Streeters began acting quite proactively. Fortunately they had about 10 months notice of the chicanery that was coming and were able to "protect" assets. Many of them may LOOK like they have little income this year. | ||
| Doerman |
The following is a quote from the movie The Devil's Advocate: These people it's no mystery where they come from. You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire. You build egos the size of cathedrals. Fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse. Grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green gold-plated fantasies until every human becomes an aspiring emperor; becomes his own God. Where can you go from there? That's a good question. Isn't it about time we reeled ourselves in a bit and grow at a sustainable rate? This applies to all of us including, board of director, the C-level management, Wall street and Unions. Until we realize that my clan alone is a non-starter without the full cooperation of my fellow clans, we're going to have the roller coaster of growth followed by a sputtering economy over and over again. | ||
| Bill0351 |
"Like the UAW workers who demand and get paid 85% of their wages when they are NOT WORKING." That great big red herring is thrown all over the place by people who see labor as greedy and lazy. The program was put in place so that workers who had their jobs replaced my machines could be paid while they were retrained for other jobs, or others opened up. It was agreed to by both sides and at the time it was seen as a cost saving measure by the automakers. Now it gets dragged out whenever someone wants to blame labor for the failure of our auto industry. Fortunately they had about 10 months notice of the chicanery that was coming and were able to "protect" assets. Many of them may LOOK like they have little income this year. Fortunate for who? The ability of Wall Street bankers to hoard money while the investments they oversee begin to tank is a good thing? Obviously you are of the opinion that if you have the opportunity to steal, you have the moral obligation to steal. It totally undermines your argument about the 12,000 workers paid to do nothing. They were merely doing what your own home team crowd (Wall Street bankers apparently) was doing... Looking out for #1 before the axe fell. | ||
| Oldog |
Yeeeooooowwwww! I agree. I think it's outright dishonesty though that in their last year of employment they suddenly become "disabled". . . while disabled work like 30 hours of OT a week and then take disability retirement. I have tremendous respect for what they do but this is a con game. is the disablement mental or physical, and yes it certainly "sounds" like a con game. }And just whom do you suggest gets to decide what I need or deserve? Are you touting "From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs"? Am I greedy if I buy my motorcycle from dealer B because dealer A wanted more money? Is dealer A greedy? Should I even buy a motorcycle because I already have 4 others? Does my purchase deprive some other poor soul the opportunity to buy one? Maybe I've got a lot of stuff. Stuff that I've bought from the proceeds of working very hard AFTER the gov't (state & local) gets theirs. The harder I work, the more they take. Greedy boss? see toxic culture comment above, Yes I did leave the business and start my own for a time, (service work) Heres my definition of a greedy boss, from my time in the chemical business, these are my observations from MY experience, YMMV Greedy boss: gets the raise package from his superiors, of the "Pool" he takes 10% for his anual raise and doles out 3~4% to five other subordanants who travel work longer hours, and deal with customers whom are angry for un-fulfilled promises, this boss shirks his responcibilities dealing with tough situations by "dellagating" it and then blaming teh subordiunates for a failure but taking praise and credit for success. That management toed the "ENRON" line by reporting projects that were 1/2 done as complete and counting them as complete to "fatten their bonuses" sound familliar? Greed has many other character traits that usualy go with it. Having several motorcycles bad or greedy whats a "collector"? I have owned as many as 3 at one time. As to line worker attitudes I have worked as line worker, technician, manager. Its not ALL greed, there are many astute hard working "BOSSES" owners etc. there are many Greedy workers out there too. The UAW 85% pay while not working is BULL SH!T this I resent paying bailout money for, } My current employer like my self wonders what a failing bank CEO does that justifies 1 mill a year, and we are bailing them out? Intersting discussion, I for the record only question the enormus salaries of executives of failing businesses at the expense of the workers, other business men who excel and put in the time and effort to grow an HONEST and HEALTHY business I salute you and begrudge you nothing. Those attitudes are evidenced here read the thread... As FT-B Points out above the government is starting to do some alarming things, I suggest that a perusal of the constitution is in order, the Hill and the White house are outa bounds on a number of issues. | ||
| Court |
>>>That great big red herring is thrown all over the place by people who see labor as greedy and lazy. Perhaps. But I am a card carrying 3rd generation union member. It's just not right. >>>The ability of Wall Street bankers to hoard money while the investments they oversee begin to tank is a good thing? Who's hoarding? And . . . the investments my wife was overseeing, all for private individuals, had a banner 2008. But when Obama started the class war with the "I'm going to teach these rich Wall Streeters" gauntlet tossing he simply forgot that he was dealing with folks much smarted than a "neighborhood organizer" and he gave them plenty of notice. Fear motivates only those who are scared and only in the short run. Obama campaigned with promises of transparency and honesty and has paraded an unprecedented collection of criminals before us resulting in the most withdrawals in my lifetime. Last night he bragged about the 800B with no earmarks, next year with no earmarks and conveniently skipped over the budget approved the other day with 9,000 earmarks (a collection of every piece of crap folks have collected over 5 years and couldn't get passed) and more spending than the cost of WWII and Viet Nam combined. That, pure and simple, is dishonest and a violation of the public trust. The largest group of folks he is sticking it to are the very group who elected him. I like this "No Incumbents" slate that was mentioned. Keep an eye on Rahm. |
