| Author | Message | ||
     Old_man |
A tragedy - in this country an 11 year old can have his own shotgun. }CNN) -- An 11-year-old boy is facing adult charges in the shooting death of his father's pregnant girlfriend, authorities said Saturday. Police say Kenzie Marie Houk's daughter found her shot to death in her bed on Friday. Police say the boy shot Kenzie Marie Houk, who was eight months pregnant, once at pointblank range in her farmhouse in western Pennsylvania. The boy, whose name was withheld by CNN because he is a juvenile, was charged with one count each of criminal homicide and homicide of an unborn child in the death of Houk, 26, Lawrence County District Attorney John Bongivengo told CNN. Houk's 4-year-old daughter found her in her bed Friday, according to police. The child alerted landscapers working near the home, who then called police. "This is someting that you wouldn't even think of in your worst nightmare, that you'd have to charge an 11-year-old with homicide," Bongivengo said, according to CNN affiliate WTAE. "It's heinous, the whole situation." Under Pennsylvania law, anyone over the age of 10 accused of murder or homicide is charged as an adult. If convicted, the boy faces a maximum sentence of life in prison, Bongivengo said. Authorities said the boy is the son of the victim's live-in boyfriend at the home in Wampum, about 35 miles northwest of Pittsburgh. DA says "At this point, we don't believe it's accidental," Bongivengo said.} The weapon was a youth model 20-gauge shotgun, designed for use by children, that belonged to the boy, according to investigators. Bongivengo told reporters the household has no history of child abuse, but that an investigation is ongoing. Calls to the boy's public defender, Dennis Elisco, went unanswered Saturday. An 11 year old is a CHILD and the adult that gave him free access to a shotgun is who should be charged with a crime. | ||
| Froggy |
Whats wrong with a kid having a shotgun? I learned how to use one and used one in the cub scouts. I was what, 7? 8? I didn't go and kill anyone. Yet. I also learned how to use a bow, a pocket knife and who knows whatelse that can kill people. | ||
| Old_man |
I have grandchildren in my home. All my guns are locked up with trigger locks. I taught both of my daughters how to use a gun when they were young. But they never had free access to them. | ||
| Boney95 |
Sure there's negligence on the fathers part. But who in the hell shots and kills a pregnant women. The kid obviously has some issues and needs to be punished. I don't care that's he's only 11. I work with Milwaukee's finest violent juveniles; 10-17 years old. They know the difference between right and wrong, but they choose to do wrong. I blame the parents for this. But the child has to be held responsible also, they have a mind of their own. I had guns at my disposal when I was young, never in my mind would I have thought of doing something like this. And if I did, I would have known it was wrong. 11 year olds are a lot smarter then you think. | ||
| P_squared |
I agree that the parents/guardians have some responsibility in this tragedy. I also know I grew up w/ firearms and didn't have this problem. That includes a double barrel .20 ga. from the time I was 10, which I kept in my room, along w/ shells for it. You just never knew when you'd get a good chance for rabbits or an afternoon of pheasant hunting, so always had to have things ready, you know? My point is that it should be a decision of the family on how they do/don't treat firearms within the home. The adults are responsible for the children. As such, what would be the difference in this case if it had been a kitchen knife instead of a shotgun? I think there's something terribly wrong with that kid, and I'm sure the same result, death, would have occurred sooner or later, with or without a gun in the home. | ||
| Old_man |
Could'a hit her with a big rock? | ||
| P_squared |
Yes, he could have. Or used a butcher knife from the kitchen. Or a shovel from the shed. Or a hammer from the garage. The implement doesn't change the results, agreed? Any 11 yr old who kills a pregnant woman w/ a shotgun has something WRONG with them, IMO. I don't believe securing the firearm would have changed the end results. Maybe the time, but not the results. Just my opinion. | ||
| Old_man |
But if he didn't have that shotgun, he wouldn't have shot her. The trouble with a gun is that killing with it is SO easy, and almost impersonal. | ||
| Boney95 |
P_squared, I'm with you on your thinking. | ||
| P_squared |
Killing is easy. They even taught me how to use a canteen to kill with in boot camp. I agree if he didn't have the gun, he wouldn't have shot her. I'm not convinced he wouldn't have used SOMETHING ELSE to kill her with though. Using a knife vs. using a gun doesn't change the 'difficulty' by a whole bunch. Heck, a 5 lb sledge to the head is just as 'easy' as a gun. The problem isn't the gun, IMO. The problem is the kid. If the father knew his son was having 'issues' and did nothing to correct that, then yes, he IS responsible for the child's behavior. I have never shot @ anyone I wasn't supposed to. I kept firearms in my room, as well as ammunition, from the age of 10. It's not the gun that is the issue. It is the child. | ||
| Old_man |
Touching a finger to a trigger is much, much easier than the other methods you mentioned. | ||
| P_squared |
No, it's not. They are ALL triggered by a THOUGHT, which only requires neurons. Once a person has made a conscious decision to kill another person, the only way they can be prevented from accomplishing it is by stopping them. "Where there is a will, there is a way." These folks would be facing a tragedy even if the gun weren't there to begin with. Only the tool used to commit the crime would be different. | ||
| Dbird29 |
What if he used a motorcycle? Ban everything, permits only to those that pass the test (tax based of course). | ||
| Old_man |
It's like I always said, you are no deader from a nuclear explosion than a rock to the head. Dead is dead! But is it wise to let an 11 year old child have access to the button. An 11 year old has not emotionally matured, and a wise person will not give him total access to a firearm. We don't know the totality of the circumstances in this shooting or the maturity of the child involved. So we don't know, really, what happened. I'm sure the court will take all of the facts into consideration. I was a homicide cop for 23 years. The last 20 years as the commander of the homicide division. I have seen too many of these tragedies. (Message edited by old_man on February 23, 2009) | ||
| P_squared |
"But is it wise to let an 11 year old child have access to the button. An 11 year old has not emotionally matured, and a wise person will not give him total access to a firearm." My parents seemed to think it was, at the age of 10. I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one either. But you are correct in what I believe you are trying to get at, which is the maturity & responsibility of the parties involved. And I agree with your opening sentence: "It's like I always said, you're are no deader from a nuclear explosion than a rock to the head. Dead is dead!" I'm truly saddened this event occurred. I'm worried that the tragedy will be blamed on the firearm, instead of the parties involved, as it should be. | ||
| Old_man |
I too had access to my older brothers guns at age 10. He taught me how to shoot. I remember carrying my rifle to high school my freshman year on the streetcar. (rifle team) That certainly couldn't happen today. I'm not blaming guns, I have many. I would not take the gun rights away. I think laws that ban guns only affect those who obey laws. But from all I've seen in my life, I think it very unwise to let children have total uncontrolled access to firearms. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Riding at 5, First shot of Whiskey at 5 BB gun at 5, Shotgun at 7 Never fired the gun in anger or malice. Joined the military at 16, pay my taxes, vote, own a home, have a job. Yep guns are the root of all evil. Its the lil shiate that is issue, would it have been acceptible if he were 16? Sadly the courts will let him off with a slap, they will make a book, a movie, and a video game about it, and the lil turd will be on American Idol singing in 4 years. | ||
| Dfishman |
It ain't the shotguns fault. People blaming guns......like blaming that Suburban that turned left in front of you. Still a sad story.General morals & values don't seem as high on the family priority list anymore. | ||
| New12r |
Punish the Deed, not the weapon... | ||
| Aesquire |
But if he didn't have that shotgun, he wouldn't have shot her. If he didn't have hands he couldn't have shot her either. Or knifed or clubbed. It's like crying that criminals shouldn't have access to burglary tools. There is a fundamental philosophical difference here. There is a law that says if you are caught breaking into a home, or trespassing & you have "burglar tools" you pretty much are a burglar. Iffy but not "bad" law. No one is blaming the crowbar for crime. It's just a tool. Banning the sale & possession of crowbars, just because a very, very, small # of people use it for crime, is bad law. The issue is not the weapon. It was a gun, but could have been broken glass. Remember during the riots in L.A.?? ( the ones that were triggered by the cops getting video'd trying to stop a crack head from kicking their a$$...or police abuse, depending on your perspective. ) Rioters dragged a truck driver out of his vehicle, beat him, and tried to stone him to death. For some reason ( schools suck, imho ) the lawyers managed to convince a jury that even though stoning is still used in executions, and has pre-biblical roots, that a crowd throwing rocks at a man bleeding on the ground trying to kill him was NOT assault with a deadly weapon. Give me a break. In a less leftist anti-gun/anti self determination society..... Like America Used to be.... would killing someone with a BB gun be less of a crime than using a .458 Winchester Magnum? More than a knitting needle? Bull crap. | ||
| Hitman44139 |
If The Obama camp has it's way with HR 45 no one under 18 will have access to any firearms including hunting. Sure this is tragic but it seems h would have murdered her with a soup spoon if he had nothing else his intention was just that MURDER. He killed her and went to school thats not about the gun thats about the idiot that pulled the trigger! here's a brief o HR45 Ths is a beginning to the end for our rights! Join the NRA now eve=n if you dont like them! 111TH CONGRESS 1ST SESSION H. R. 45 To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES JANUARY 6, 2009 Mr. RUSH introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary A BILL To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes. | ||
| Acgwolfe |
i think the issue that needs to be addressed is not how he did it but that he did it. It is not the guns fault, it is the boys, he should be delt with accordingly I knew that killing was wrong when I was 11 so when I say accordingly I mean accordingly. It is time to get tough on people who do not value human life and think everyone in this world is here for them to take advantage of. Maybe Im a hard ass but I believe an eye for an eye and the punishment should always fit the crime. It would sure make alot of people stop and think and save our judicial system alot of time. Anyone that can take a life for no other reason than they can is no benefit to society and should be discarded. | ||
| Old_man |
In most of this country you have to be 16 to get a driver's license. Do you think this wrong? Should we let 10 year olds drive? I know, you did! | ||
| P_squared |
How is that relevant? Let me guess, national registration, right? Licensing for an automobile is required, in part, because the vehicle is used on PUBLIC roads. Last I looked, you couldn't get a hunting license unless you had completed a state approved Hunter's education course. Last I looked, you couldn't purchase a longarm OR ammunition until you are 18. I'm throwing in the towel. We're obviously too ideologically apart on the root issue here. You win. It wasn't the kid who killed the pregnant woman, it was the shotgun. If it hadn't been for the shotgun, she'd still be alive. BS. | ||
| Old_man |
It wasn't the kid who killed the pregnant woman, it was the shotgun. NO! - It was both! | ||
| P_squared |
As I said, I don't agree. I've listed why I don't agree. I've stated that the child is the person responsible for the act and the shotgun was the implement. A tool has no free will, so how it can be responsible in any way is beyond me. You win. Time for a ride & a gunshow. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Licensing for an automobile is required, in part, because the vehicle is used on PUBLIC roads. One argument says it's actually even more basic: Driving is a PRIVELAGE. Gun ownership is a RIGHT guaranteed in the 2nd amendment. We do not register people exercising their rights as guaranteed by the framers. | ||
| Old_man |
So you think it's right that a 10 year old can keep and bear arms. How about 6? | ||
| Billinpa |
This is about 10 miles from me. Very tragic indeed. Best guess is the boy was jealous of his Dad's girlfriend and soon to be new sibling. The kid is guilty, not the weapon. He easily could have killed her without a shotgun. | ||
| Spatten1 |
10 year olds should not have their own guns. 10 year olds should be able to shoot under controlled conditions with adult supervision. Parents should be able to teach minors to use firearms and hunt under supervision. Legal adults should have the ability to buy and own guns without registration. Period. |
