| Author | Message | ||
     Oldog |
Daschle steped out and has declined the nom. perhaps more fiber than expected. PeBO needs to Vet the appointees a little better. I do hope that they are thinking about LONG TERM ramifications here, Sports teams while a good analogy don't totaly fit here unless we are going to bail them out too. I have been reading over the credit mess and various articles about creditcard and bank practices, more looking needs to be done.... | ||
| Oldog |
They'd love to have the wealth redistributed by a formula that looks like comp rate . . . i.e. a schedule of what every job in the country pays. IIRC tried in Soviet Union .... FAIL! IIRC tried in CUBA ..... FAIL! My comment from above about P-BO "looking in to exec salaries" I took this to mean ALL exec's that is Frightening! the failed business execs on the dole only - err NO not frightening I would require total accountablility for all money, LOANED to them by the taxpayer is that bad and if so why? (Message edited by oldog on February 04, 2009) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There is a difference between "tax evasion" and "tax avoidance". Are you familiar with Section 79 Plans? I am. Are you familiar with Section 412e3 Plans? I am. Are you familiar with Section 409A Plans? I am. Are you familiar with Section 7872 Plans? I am. Are you familiar with the impacts and benefits of the Section 72 portion of the tax code? I am. These are all LEGAL arrangements established and managed by the federal government to provide for the deferral of taxes. Uncle Sam ALWAYS gets his. It's just WHEN he gets his that matters. If you could spread income over a 40 year period of time instead of 5, you can minimize your tax exposure. It's the same for you and your Roth IRA, Traditional IRA, or 401(k). These "traditional" strategies are worthless for anyone who makes more than $130,000. THESE are the folks I work for. Now if you want Obama to start slaying tax cheats in the street, he'd have to execute half his cabinet and most of the nominees. People who make lots of money aren't the problem. People who use LEGAL strategies to minimize current tax exposure and extend the tax payment horizon are not the problem. People who feel that anyone who makes more than they do must have gotten it by lying, cheating, and stealing are the problem. Class envy is bull shit. Here is what they should have done with the banks receiving bailout money. Provide for a market competitive pay package that is VERY attractive to attract the BEST talent to these troubled banks. Have that pay package contingent upon profitability benchmarks and repayment of the TARP funds. The SOONER the repayment occurs and the profitability benchmarks are achieved, the better the "bonus". The later these are achieved, the smaller the "bonus". Think of it like a construction contract with early bonuses and late penalties. If they CEO appears to be moving everything in a wrong direction, the remaining portion of the pay package is withheld and offered to the CEO's replacement. THAT is how you accomplish the rebuilding of the banking industry AND maintain free market competitiveness in hiring the best people. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Decided not to stand by your words? | ||
| Ducxl |
No..I decided it best to not be so inciteful,and that i may have been insulting. It's times like that i take Court's advice and hit the delete key. Back on topic.My IRA has lost TENS of thousands last year.That is HUUUGE!! To me. Now we have these bailout packages that WE the taxpayers are financing. I find it REPULSIVE that they're showering bonuses in this VERY strained economy. **drivel deleted** Not class envy.I'm pi$$ed at the swindling of "Joe average" by big money. I want my money OUT of my IRA.I've lost all confidence in Wall st. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I believe that it applies to companies that have gotten or will receive bailout money. You don't find it annoying that exec's of failing companies that are laying people off are making millions and spending it on personal items. I would think that if they were actually worth that kind of money, the companies they run wouldn't have so many financial problems. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
No..I decided it best to not be so inciteful,and that i may have been insulting. It's times like that i take Court's advice and hit the delete key. Back on topic.My IRA has lost TENS of thousands last year.That is HUUUGE!! To me. Now we have these bailout packages that WE the taxpayers are financing. I find it REPULSIVE that they're showering bonuses in this VERY strained economy. **drivel deleted** Not class envy.I'm pi$$ed at the swindling of "Joe average" by big money. I want my money OUT of my IRA.I've lost all confidence in Wall st. Pardon, but you haven't lost a BIT of VALUE in your IRA. The market will come back over the next 18 months. Those who held their ground and didn't cash out will reap ALL of the recovery and then some. It always does. It did after the depression. It did in the 60's. It did in the 70's. It did after 86. It did in 92. It did in 2001. There is an estimated saturation of 30-40% of market equity in cash right now. These are folks who DID cash out and sat on the sidelines after much of the losses happened. There is another 10-15% that moved to GOLD (the next market to crash). When these funds move out of cash and gold back into the market, you will see a huge recovery. If you sell out now, you will lock in your losses and NEVER fully recover. This graph might help:  Missing just 10 of the best days in the market had a HUGE impact on overall rate of return. You can trace this all the way back to the 20's and it holds true. Often the best recovery days are at the very beginning of the upturn. Are you familiar with the concept of "market bottom" from an institutional investing standpoint? With each downturn, institutional investors seek to "buy in" at what they hope is the bottom? Why? So that they can have front row seats when the market takes it's first few steps toward recovery. Each time the market takes a downturn, these institutional investors look to see if the bottom is going to hold or if they need to pump more money in at the new low to capture THAT portion of the recovery. You'll see the institutional folks jumping in in the last hour of the market. It usually goes something like this: "Wall Street was up and down today and after what looked to be a really horrible day in the market turned around just before the close. The market was down 218 points and ended up 148 points for the day. In further news......." You can not time the market. Unless you are retiring tomorrow, keep it where it is and wait. It WILL come back. Cash it in now, and you'll never see those lost values again. You have converted paper losses into real ones. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on February 04, 2009) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
NOT ALL companies are doing poorly. Why should successful companies not reward their employees for their hard work and success. Why should a company that is otherwise successful keep employees for excess production not currently needed. Just because the CEO received a bonus for a successful year it doesn't mean that this bonus came at the cost of an employee job. If they laid these employees off and didn't pay out the bonuses, would it make you feel better? If you know you aren't going to be able to move 100% of the inventory you are going to produce, why produce it and have to store it. If you aren't going to produce the inventory, why retain 100% of the workforce that produces the inventory sitting idle. Line workers are the easiest to hire and the easiest to fire. They are the first to go and the first to come back. That and middle management. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I would imagine if you're asking for bailout money, you're not very successful. Why would you deserve a bonus? | ||
| Froggy |
Success has nothing to do with needing a bail out. The rug has been pulled out from underneath just about every company, and not all of them have enough cash to weather out a temporary downturn. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
If you are getting federal bailout to secure, shore or bolster your company, you have a fiduciuary responsibility to the gov't and tax payers to acct responsibily... I hear Gitmo is closing for terrorists... I think its time to move in some of these CEO golden parachute jack asses. They have crashed the economic engine of the economy, its time they be held accountable, and hell maybe even waterboarded. centuries ago, Americans would have rioted in the streets for less. We get the government and economy that we 'allow'. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I bet Franklin received his Fannie Mae bonuses. | ||
| Oldog |
Decided not to stand by your words? ???????????????????? Tax evasion an attempt to avoid paying taxes all together, Tax avoidence, carefuly following the rules allowed by law to control the amount paid, called "loophole" "dodge" etc. a 401K retirement plan where the deductions are placed in the individuals account PRE tax, the tax is defered, later if the moneys are withdrawn at a slow rate after retirement ( say to suppliment social security ) the tax liabillities are lessened. I do not approve of caps or any government regulation of salaries for sound businesses, Where WE are bailing out the big banks and the street firms because of the bad management and failure of due dilligence YES, The auto makers - I am not so sure that seems like a domino effect taking other businesses with them. compensation and the like should be reviewed and adjusted fairly for the current conditions. I have a friend who's husband retired from GM her medical care is GONE, yet GM's Upper Eshelon were making how much? the "compromise with the UAW was to take the medical benefits from retirees 65 and older" I dont have an answer but they worked for that, same idea as the golden parachutes yet the Parachutes get paid and the retirees got shafted ..... is that right? could you support your parents in that situation? } | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How much of the medical benefits cost could be covered by taking the CEO's compensation to zero? I'll give you a hint. If you took his 2007 salary and bonus (90% of which was incentive stock NOT cash) and divide by the post retirement healthcare costs, Wagoner would need to live and work for GM for 4331 years at zero salary to pay the obligation off. It's the equivalent to begrudging Wagoner for eating a tic-tac while the company denies 100 people a 6 course meal at a 5 star restaurant. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on February 05, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>>Think of it like a construction contract with early bonuses and late penalties. Which is how I spent most my career . . . there were consequences for not meeting commitments. >>>Pardon, but you haven't lost a BIT of VALUE in your IRA. I absolutely agree. I've been through this cycle 3 times in my career. In times I this when the statement comes I simply toss them, unopened, in the drawer and feel good about buying double the number of shares I usually would. Economies are cyclical. If I were retiring in the next year, it would present a problem. But I tried retiring once, didn't care for it and saw what retiring at 52 did to my dad . . .I'm going to be working well into the next cycle. I've got so far as to make a significant increase in my 401(K) contribution and have increased my stock purchase plan to the maximum. I look at it this way . . for every 9 shares I buy, my company buys me an additional share . . I've made 11% in the first instant I purchase. The constraint is that I have to hold it for a year. I'm betting, as well as a stupid construction worker can, that buying cheap Morgan-Stanley, Harley-Davidson and Utility stock will play out. Ask yourself, if you hadn't seen TV or read a newspaper in the past 5 months how you'd feel about the economy. The drop in gas prices has provided a $300,000,000 "faux" stimulus and put money right smack dab in folks' pockets. There are far more positive than negative signs. The only thing that scares me is having a "neighborhood organizer" and Nancy Pelosi (a genuinely not very bright person with a demonstrated lack if understanding about what's taking place in the economy) at the controls. If you are partisan, I assure you McCain would have done no better. Until we get the thieves out and hold politicians to the same level of integrity (Nancy has a larger jet than any of the auto companies ever had) we seek to hold private firms, we'll be in this mess. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Did you hear Pelosi's press conference yesterday? "Every month that we do not have an economic recovery package 500 million Americans lose their jobs."  Ditzy Broad.  | ||
| Oldog |
How much of the medical benefits cost could be covered by taking the CEO's compensation to zero? }compensation and the like should be reviewed and adjusted fairly for the current conditions. Taking all of the comp is not FAIR as I indicated in the above, taking All of the health care is not fair either, Down-ward adjustments in salaries for senior execs, AND line workers. reductions ( not elimination ) of the health care bennies for all employees and the retirees ALL give some. please read my posts a little closer  I indicated earlier that I have talked to my boss about health insurance that is an example, Of cooperating with your employer it could save him several thousand dollars a year on insurance costs. I have sleep apnea, and because of that even though it is being dealt with ( i have a cpap ) my insurance rate for individual PPO type poloicy is about what the average HOUSE-PAYMENT is here in wilmington. The government regs prohibit my employer from doing what I wanted to do which was to have insurance for catastrophic injury or illness, Aflac or flexible spending for checkups and the like with the flex account backed by my employer up to the deductible of the insurance ( until I had accumulated enough money that it was not needed ) Thats a Win Win for us both as I see it. I insured my self while I was self employed for almost 2 years, My savings made up the gap. 200$ month VS 850$ month It kept me going in slow times you have to admit 38,000$ for a chest of drawers for an executive office is a bit much? that would pay for some one's insurance for a year?, is that a fair statement? granted in the furniture case ( Wells fargo I think ) there have been other infractions, Vegas junkit, comes to mind. that may have helped them offset some of their bennifit costs. VS Bail out money. the junkit is in my mind a twist on the "entitlement" mentality.} | ||
| Oldog |
Until we get the thieves out and hold politicians to the same level of integrity (Nancy has a larger jet than any of the auto companies ever had) we seek to hold private firms, we'll be in this mess. BRAVO COURT! That is a totaly accurtate statement! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I read your posts. The point I was making was that the folks who originally made the promises to workers to provide post retirement healthcare never anticipated the cost increases we would see in providing that care. The expected exposure for those costs was $70B in 2006. It wouldn't matter if you took all of the salaries of all of the executives and made them sit naked on wicker chairs in the dark it wouldn't made a dent in a fraction of the rounding errors for the costs of the benefits provided. Does it suck? Yep. Was it necessary in order to keep the company alive? Yep. | ||
| Oldog |
The expected exposure for those costs was $70B in 2006. Could have the insurance been adjusted and used with medicare? to help provide some thing for the retirees? I agree that Cutting it DOWN to save the company was needed was cutting it out realy needed? (They) never anticipated the cost increases we would see in providing that care.} I understand that, could have the copay for a doctor visit be raised from 1$ ( what it was) to say 30$ or 40$ ( a typical doctor visit here is about 80$ cut it in half? Same for prescrip it was 1$ copay, make it 50-50 still better than nothing It does suck, YES I honestly can't say that the one cut that I know about will Save GM but if that was the UAW consession then they will not be getting any of my money soon ( beyond the bailout ) I don't expect the top managers to give it all up, but a golden parachute? IMO can't afford that either, I will skip the comments about the Jets and the like as at times there are GOOD reasons to shuttle important well known folks in Private transport. Perhaps from a page in US history, company store and doctor, company housing? | ||
| Froggy |
Ft_bstd, thank you for defending GM for once! 
Oldog, part of the agreements was that the UAW is going to take care of the medical costs, with GM contributing to a trust fund. | ||
| Oldog |
Well according to my friend that aint the case, ALL benefits were cut if I understood her. I just used GM as an example, there are bail out banks that are cutting staff and the execs are doing the 38,000$ office furnature thing. (Wells fargo) Froggy The UAW does not produce any thing the money generated is from car sales, finnancing, or investments so GM is going to pay ( excluding F&I ) into the fund. the employees who are working will pay into the fund.( the union contribution ?) [ sounds a little like a Ponzi deal! ]sales are off ( one reason I am infavor of a LOAN to help them thru the down turn ) What I hope to see in this is america rising to the challenge, the greed that is "all about me getting my huge bonus " being replaced by "what do we need to do to keep the doors open and if possible meet our commitments" I am not saying the CEO should work for 1$ a year hummm Iococa did though ( he got stock ) and with a federal loan saved Chrysler. I am not saying the line workers should work for min wage altough 85$ hr is a little steep for a lift driver ( the media spit that number out so I have no idea if it is accurate) 20$ per hour would certainly seem to be handsom working in doors driving a lift truck moving tires fenders or the like. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Pardon, but you haven't lost a BIT of VALUE in your IRA tell that to the people that are ready to retire and start drawing off that account. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>you have to admit 38,000$ for a chest of drawers for an executive office is a bit much? Yet no one questioned Michelle Obama calling on one of Beverly Hills most exclusive and expensive interior designers to come in and replace all the carpets and furnishings in the Oval office. Go do some searching and you'll see that Michelle outspent many corporate execs. . . her room service and the suite in the Hay Mark should have served as a precursor. | ||
| Bill0351 |
So many of these conversations degenerate into the participants making comparisons of irresponsible excess. Absurd levels of corporate pay are OK because they are small compared with unreasonably generous retirement packages. In reality, both are examples of waste. $38,000 desks bought with shareholder’s money are excusable because crazy amounts of tax payer’s money are spent in the Oval Office? It’s a stupid and invalid argument. Each problem is a separate issue. Each should be addressed that way. The best run companies pay attention to details. Those details include getting a handle on wasteful spending no matter where it occurs. Poor performance needs to be addressed too. That goes for poor quality, poor worker production, and poor management. | ||
| Froggy |
Oldog I don't know why they lost their benefits, it is possible they were referring to some other reduction related to medical. GM has been contributing to the VEBA trust fund, and is to contribute $60 billion by the end of 2010. There was some thing the other day about the UAW allowing a delay in the payments. As for the UAW's contribution, I got no clue where the money is going to come from, but the UAW has been around for well over a hundred years and has over 3000 contracts with 2000 employers. They are affiliated with the AFL-CIO. The money is coming from somewhere. The $85 an hour thing, its $74 an hour, and thats the cost to GM per hour, not their pay. It includes costs of benefits, pensions, etc. Toyota cost per hour is $44. | ||
| Court |
>>>>In reality, both are examples of waste. $38,000 desks bought with shareholder’s money are excusable because crazy amounts of tax payer’s money are spent in the Oval Office? It’s a stupid and invalid argument. We are in 100% agreement. The Congress, and I draw no lines between parties, of the United States should be ashamed for they way they conduct their business . . . as well as the way they, through regulation and mandate, have dictated that some American businesses do. Get me some leaders; this current crop is an embarrassment from the top down.
| ||
| Concor |
+1 Bill. Wasnt this thread about harley and Warren Buffet?? What a shock the bitter republicans have hijacked this one also. Its the same situation when others have had issues with there bikes, a moderator than brings up a issue with a Honda or Ducati somehow trying to justify the problems you are having. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Oldog, The move to sack the medical benefit was in lieu of the UAW completely breaking the contract with the Auto companies. The UAW got to maintain the ability to negotiate the higher wages for the line workers and maintain control of the UAW workers and their negotiating position. The alternative would have been to reduce the current income in order to preserve benefits for former employees. This would have weakened the UAW's strength and position with current workers. You don't endear yourself with CURRENT workers by cutting their wages to preserve promises to FORMER employees. It isn't enought to double or triple the physician co-pays. Most employees pay a $20-$50 copay for a visit that was actually billed at $500. So you triple the co-pay. They still aren't coming anywhere NEAR the costs. This is assuming we are talking about an average visit. What is the cost of a hip replacement? Cancer treatments? Diabetic supplies? Home medical equipment (walkers, wheel chairs, power chairs, power lift beds, etc.)? Heart stints? Open heart surgery? Even if they passed 50% of every dollar of cost on to the retirees, the savings would only amount to $35B. That still leaves $800 per car in dead cost in post retiree medical benefits. There is simply no way to support that expense. We will see the same exposures coming for Medicaid and Social Security. There is simply no way to support with a tax base the expenses coming down the pike. At some point in time, the promise is going to be broken. There is just no way around it. The retirees from the UAW will have to provide for their medical benefit the same way the rest of us will. Government as a base with individually purchased supplemental coverage on top of the base. | ||
| Oldog |
Hey Court What I could find MO engaged? hired a high dollar decorator to "spruce up the place" most of the stuff is either comming from their home ( the o's) or from Pottery Barn I think you can furnish a lota rooms for 35K from that place I have no doubt that there will be a big fat bill for that either way I have to wonder about this stuff Republicans had taken issue with the size of the plane Pelosi would need to fly in to reach her hometown of San Francisco without refueling. Err call US AIR ways and get a seat on a commercial flight. B!@#$@%h Or she can pay for a private one, just like you or I }What a shock the bitter republicans have hijacked this one also Outa Line.... Its thread drift, and an interesting one, with some interesting folks, |
