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Aesquire
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:15 am: | 
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...watched the economy tank worse than anytime in the last 80 years,...
factually untrue. See Carter/Regan years.
I know that we've listened to 8 years of the Dem's calling this "the worst economy since the Great Depression" & 2 seconds analysis tells you they have lied for all those years. Pick your figure. Unemployment, GDP changes, etc. B.S.. It's been worse. Taxes have been worse, inflation has been worse. ( though we may set new records under the New Guy )
It's a Mantra of Propaganda that IMHO has far more to do with the economy going down than "Maddog" or the insurance failures. It's your confidence in the system that keeps it working. We are the ones that drive it by investing.
Now, balance of trade, and govt. deficits! there you got some bitching to do.
Are you, the actual worker doing less? Did you screw this up with your greed & sloth? I don't think so. It's a high level multi layer scam where your debt was sold back & forth & used to prop up bad business decisions. It screws a lot of people, but it has little to do with your actions. ( my 401k is now a 101k too )
Don't forget the 3 great lies of the English language.
The Check's in the mail.
I'll respect you in the morning.
I'm from the Government & I'm here to help you.  |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:17 am: |
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Source please.
I watched it at length on CSPAN where she testified last Tuesday.I was trying to take notes,but only caught HER LINE where she stated her department intercepted over SEVENTY Ponzi schemes last year.
With all of the bailouts,or whatever they're called,exactly which ones have benefitted the average middle and low income citizens?
We're told about all of the money that went to the banks to get money moving but they're not lending?
I think if we do not unleash the military,the only thing we'll be able to expect is more Wall st. immoral greed and my IRA losing a few more tens of thousands.
My money is almost GONE!! How's that for an American dream. |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:36 am: |
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I'm with Slaughter on this one. They are all a gang of crooks. Both sides, equally. I say flush them all.
http://www.nomoreincumbents.org/ |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 10:45 am: |
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>>>>I watched it at length on CSPAN where she testified last Tuesday.I was trying to take notes,but only caught HER LINE where she stated her department intercepted over SEVENTY Ponzi schemes last year.
Good enough for my purposes and thank you. As I have said, I think there is tremendous opportunity in all this.
The President, and I think he's a smart guy, has to be embarrassed that the solutions from the democratic congress over the last couple weeks put almost zero lead on the target. He at least got the $150,000,000 of rubbers and the $82,000,000 of sod out of the thing. As you said, banks got money and did nothing but increase their liquidity and didn't make loans.
This, and I point at Republicans and Democrats equally, congress shows just how low we've set the bar of leadership. This group will not scare Wall Street in the least.
Let me ask . . . as I listen to Schumer defend Daschle as a "simple oversight". Let me as you at what time in your life that $140,000 of unpaid (this wasn't an oversight, this was tax he knew he owed and tried to avoid paying) taxes would be a simple oversight?
They believe you and I are stupid enough to swallow this. The same folks who thought they could convince us Carolyn Kennedy was "experienced".
I agree that the current economy is no where near as bad as the early 80's.
Until we demand more of our leaders (as I watch Schumer, he'd be a good place to start) we can't expect much better. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 11:00 am: |
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 My life is always enriched by reading these posts by others from very varied backgrounds.
We all like Buell motorcycles too!!! |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 11:06 am: |
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>>>My life is always enriched by reading these posts by others from very varied backgrounds.
I agree.
It's interesting to hear views from around the world and from a diverse group of folks.
It's more fun in that my wife is one of the most seasoned of Wall Street Hedge Fund folks so I, as a lowly construction worker, hear lots of view points.
Vickie got called in to sort out the mess in Springfield, IL several years ago and has been dispatched to Florida and LA on audits over the years.
If she was in power . . . Lord save us all . . . she has a "diminished tolerance for bullshit" and gained Wall Street fame, during an Oppenheimer bond issue, when she was called in, was crawling around the conference table in a fur coat looking at the documents they'd screwed up and yelled "every one here who is an attorney, raise your hand". . . . "now, half of you get the •••• out of here". The issue made it out on time. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 12:34 pm: |
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I don't have time to look up all the numbers but I am pretty sure we have seen one of the largest percentage reductions in the stock markets in a very long time. Unemployment numbers are the highest they have been in a very long time and going higher. Perhaps by some standards this is not as bad as the stagflation days of the Carter admin (he didn't create that problem and you can make a pretty good argument that he actually fixed it by the only means possible but that is a different argument) but it certainly as bad as anytime I can remember and I am 60 years old.
Court as far as your assessment of the guy making 35000 buying a 200000 dollar house, the reality is not many of those out there; a lot more folks who could afford something and got talked into more than they should have. I can hardly understand the paperwork for my mortgage and I used to help by attorney father proof read the one he wrote so I understand a lot. They are deliberately hard to understand and very easy to be misleading.
Blaming the housing mess on the poor working folks in the inner cities of America is simply not true, The VAST majority of "bad" mortgages are for expensive homes in affluent areas. The root cause was the lack of any meaningful regulation of a whole new class of financial instruments and the pure panic that ensued when investors realized that, God forbid, they could lose money.
Another big part of it was the change to the accounting rules that require "mark to market" for these securities. Despite the fact that most of the underlying mortgages are being paid and these securities are actually making some money you have to state the value as zero is no one want to buy them. It is perhaps the key mistake that has taken a typical bubble bust and turned it into a huge problem. The Great Depression was trigger by the bursting of the Wall Street bubble in 1929 but likely would not have been as bad if the reactions to it had not include increased protectionism and a refusal to move off the gold standard.
And for the pres giving Wall Street crap for the bonuses? He is right, how can you lose billions of other peoples money, take more of other peoples money to keep your ship afloat, harm many peoples lives by your mistakes and you then use taxpayer money to give your self a bonus for doing a good job!!!! I agree the pres has little control over these folks but they are asking for someone to whack them.
I really get pissed off that Wall Street got away with what is looking a lot like a nice present from Bush to his buddies while congress beats the crap out of the automakers for having private jets! At least the automakers actually make something real. They drive our economy, the financiers may make it possible but without people actually making products here in the USA we will soon be a second class country. The Chinese will own us and we will do as they say.
And I repeat, if you don't like the plan outline something better. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 12:56 pm: |
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Suppose Pelosi or Hillary will give up their private 727's?
Washington is in a lot more of a mess than the automakers or Wall Street?
I agree that the "average" Joe is not to blame . . I'd be more inclined to point my finger at the folks, when bankers would have sent the "average Joe" packing and told him to come back when he had a down payment, were forced, by the community reinvestment act, to abate common sense credit checks and so forth, and give loans or be subject to penalties.
I doubt, on Wall Street or in Washington, there is any lack of culpable parties. Shame is that rather than solving this, they are pretty much going on with business as usual. This entire bailout package is a shopping bag that they've been filling for years and are trying to pass under the guise of economic duress.
I'm darn near 60 too and this is going to impact me darn little . . . but what a shame to see generations behind us saddled with this debt.
You make a good point about China . . . few realize that a good portion of this almost a TRILLION bucks will be borrowed from China.
I wonder if they'll want a down payment or credit check?
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Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 02:01 pm: |
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Court, I have to disagree on the CRA. It did not require loans be made to people with bad credit BUT it does require loans be made in areas that have been redlined. I have lived in several of these neighborhoods in Milwaukee and prior to the CRA it was very difficult to find a loan even with outstanding credit and a sizable down payment.
The CRA also has some racial requirements and again from what I know about Milwaukee and this is true in many other places blind testing has repeatedly shown that people of color will be denied loans that are granted to white people with the same credit credentials- the people who apply are carefully select so they match, these are solid studies.
By far the majority of the loans in these high risk packages are in areas that he CRA does not cover.
The basic failure was the removal of risk from the person making the loan, since they could package it and get rid of it they did not complete the most basic checks and even made loans they knew where not going to work but they got paid to make the loan and did not have to worry about collecting the money. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 02:18 pm: |
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Court, I have to disagree on the CRA. It did not require loans be made to people with bad credit BUT it does require loans be made in areas that have been redlined.
This statement isn't entirely accurate.
Although the CRA didn't specifically require loans to people with bad credit, the changes made under Clinton did in essence require the same thing.
In order to meet your CRA scoring requirement under the new rules, banks had to ORIGINATE a certain number of loans (where previously they only needed to demonstrate an attempt to solicit business withing redlined areas as well as receive applications). Banks were previously able to follow normal underwriting guidelines based upon financial suitability. In order to meet the quota, banks had to originate borderline to bad mortgage business. The problem was that banks couldn't sell these mortgages in the open market because investors weren't willing to take the risk with no backing.
Enter Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Federal Government altered the certification that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would place on mortgage business. Investors could now buy the mortgage paper without worry, because these pieces of business would be backed by the full faith and credit of the Federal Government.
The default that started the cascade in the mortgage market was with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. When the Federal Government failed to back the certification, the house of cards fell.
CRA loans were bundled with other, non-guaranteed substandard mortgages with the idea that at least the CRA loans were FULLY GUARANTEED and that of the loans most likely to default, the lower income mortgages, these CRA mortgages were as good as prime mortgages due to the backing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. When these agencies defaulted on their guarantees, 100% of the loans held in the portfolio were at risk triggering the mark to market free fall.} |
Moxnix
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 02:26 pm: |
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"Of all forms of tyranny, the least attractive and most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, of plutocracy."- J. Pierpont Morgan.
Morgan saved the nation's economic system once. For a sense of duty more than filling his own coffers, as when he died his posh friends, like J.D. Rockerfeller, were surprised by his modest estate.
So, lets say that back in the Reagan and Thatcher days, plutocrats gathered together in some place like, say, Aspen or Jackson Hole, with the goal of making the country a better place for "big business." And they set outcomes.
1. Find a way to put working-class people in their place, which is to be silenced and grateful for a job.
2. Open new markets for American goods where they don't compete against local companies.
3. Design ways to operate outside of government regulations and lawsuits.
4. Increase consumer spending without raising wages.
5. Increase government spending without inflation (which eats into accumulated wealth).
This spawns enormous wealth without social uprising or government interference.
First a move is made to create a global labor market, opening up China and India, offering new customers made up of low-cost laborers, reducing labor costs at home by ridding yourself of employees with benefits. Suppress domestic wages, thwart inflation, add new customers, and side-step labor and environmental laws.
Keep domestic customers by introducing easy credit, along with a costly war infusing huge amounts of government money into the home economy.
Vast amounts of money have piled up for these clever "plutocrats" with another large pile to the bonus boys on Wall St. who put the deals together.
Decades back, the term "unconscionable profits" was floated on robber barons. We've been inoculated away from that by cable TV financial hacks, our public servants in Washington, your investment advisor and the collapse of our public school curriculum.
The natural state of affairs in a free-market economy is inequality. Not equality. A more equal distribution requires effort and compassion, along with financial loss to plutocrats. A range of income classes requires doing nothing.
As a society, we have done nothing since Reagan.
To deal with the reality of a global market, the "folk" must learn what businesses have always known: the real money goes to those who can get around the pressures of competition and government meddling, to monopoly power.
Today, one must specialize. And identify one's place in the global economy. If your work can be done on the Internet, you compete against the world.
If you choose a line of business requiring face to face activities, you limit competition. Localize, and you monopolize a geographical area. Speaking only for myself, I opted out of the global market by specializing and localizing.
My blue dog democrat conservancy is a hope of offering "altruistic egoism," gaining personal satisfaction from helping others, through politics and community, while maintaining enough self-interest to have a better than average financial position.
Our society allowed the plutocrats to do toss us to the curb. And we keep allowing more of the same. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 03:24 pm: |
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Be mindful that a good number of banks are being "forced" to accept the bailout money . . it was refreshing, while in Topeka, KS, to hear about Capital Federal Savings and Loan (home owned and the fist S&L with >1B in assets) told them thanks but no thanks.
I like the part of the Federal bailout bill that specifically says that "no money shall go to the state of IL if Blago remains in office". . . a little "social engineering" . . think he pissed the big O off by threatening to out him?
I'm watching Blago continue his media campaign today . . .how is it that he (one one side of the tape recorded conversation) was guilty but Rahm and Jesse and the others on the other end were innocent?
Let me guess. . . they forgot to pay their taxes?
My point is that the whole bunch of these folks are utter national embarrassments. If we wanted the "kind of change you can believe in" I'd start raising the standards for Washington before I let Wall Street bother me . . the good part about Wall Street is they are "regulated" by Washington.
No kidding. |
Hooligan620
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:03 pm: |
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We just got a letter from our bank, a small local institution, saying they were offered 14 million in bailout money. After reviewing the terms of the loan the decided against going on the dole. They also told us not to worry the bank is solvent. Did I mention this letter came with a dividend check from the very small amount of stock we have invested in the bank.
There is something to be said for sound competent business practices! Big government, big business and the union of the two scares me!
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely! |
Moxnix
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:27 pm: |
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All the grannies that kept their dough in CDs didn't lose too big in the last 10 years.
If we are in the new Carter years, folk made lots of money in high interest rates associated with inflation. B.H.O. is very likely to be a Carter. The plutocrats will dump him in 2012, no question.
Note, a new president usually sees an upward bounce on Wall St. at the inauguration. B.H.O. has not.
Money is smarter than politicians. The Market has no faith in B.H.O. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:29 pm: |
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Support for the bailout bill has dropped 13% the last week, down to 42%. . . the American people are not stupid.
People of widely diverse political views are one in reading this "crap" (the current word being used on some of the news opinion programs) and shaking their collective, black, white, male, female and transgender heads.
We're not sure what we agree on but we all know crap when we see it.
Remember what your folks taught you . . common sense. |
Moxnix
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:48 pm: |
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As my grandfather used to say, "You had better learn to recognize the smell of crap when you step in it." Not much from Washington passes the smell test. |
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