| Author | Message | ||
     Moxnix |
In a financial paper today: "GM announced yesterday that it would probably run out of money in March. As to a bailout, we turn to a letter that appeared last week in the Manufacturing and Technology Journal. It is from a man who seems to have grease under his nails and a brain under his hat. Greg Knox, president of Knox Machinery in Franklin, Ohio, explains why he is not in favor of a bail out for Detroit. "Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new 'messiah', Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep 'living the dream'… Believe me folks, The dream is over! "This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded 'laborers' without paying the price for these atrocities…this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever. "Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting. Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: 'There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not.' "You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management…how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass…so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time…for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics…for putting out too many parts on a shift…and for being too productive (We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) "Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: 'over the last few years …we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.' What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a joke! "We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit. "I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of 'bailout money'. 'Yes,' he said, 'this would cause short term problems,' but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day… and the following very important thing would happen…where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up…that is how a free market system works…it does work…if we would only let it work…" "But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and 'save us"'…Save us my ass. Hell - we're nationalizing…and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening…But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams…yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it… "Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?… How can that be??? Let's see… Fuel efficient… Listening to customers… Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul… "Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning… Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like 'the enemy'… Efficient front and back offices… Non union environment… "Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts. I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh… Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults. "I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to 'make it all go away.' I laughed as I heard Obama 'reeling it back in' almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied…'we really might not do it in a year…or in four…' Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office. "Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks … That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000… People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits… That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year… We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe… "That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home… Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has…and doesn't live beyond its means…and gets back to basics…and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world…and probably turns back to God. "Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the 'bad news'. I hope you take it to heart. "Gregory J. Knox, President, Knox Machinery, Inc. Franklin, Ohio" Me? I'm not anti-union. Or anti-management. | ||
| Damnut |
My best friend, who is a licensed plumber in a Union, just lost his job last Friday along with 19 of his co-workers. | ||
| J2blue |
All of it makes you wonder what it should really mean to be "middle class" in America. I'm with CityX and don't give a damn about working hard for the man when the man pays me peanuts for monopolizing all my time. I'd rather not have a mortgage, and property, and toys that force me to work with companies that just don't get it. Thankfully I don't have a family to support or my attitude would be a luxury I couldn't afford. Until we can build ourselves(individual citizens) towards a financial independence like Ben Franklin describes we are all low class wage slaves with very little real freedom. Companies that are laying off and cutting 401K plans and taking from the employees in this great time of FEAR are only too happy about such a bad economy. It's the excuse they've needed for a long time. Someone near the top of each corporate ladder is padding their own wallets handsomely. And stock holders - there are two kinds of those, too. A few stock holders in most outfits have the power to manipulate the true value of the stocks in hand when the time comes to shudder the business, you can be sure of that. If you have family and know you have financial obligations that force you to hold on to what meager income you are getting I understand. But most of the companies that are slashing for the short term outlook aren't really interested in seeing the economy come back for you and I. If they were they'd know that we need a lot more cash to pay for all the goods and services they are trying to sell. Who else is going to buy their shit? If I were still with a company that did tell me less pay and benefits, when it was already ridiculously low, for the privilege of working for them I'd just laugh and walk out. Don't call it a union if that word bothers you, but if enough working Americans just walk out on some of these Ganks and say enough maybe they will see the long term reality. In a robber baron industry the robber barons get fewer and fewer. Fat cat Freddy the CEO may not be so fat 10 years from now if he insists on robbing his employees for a short term atta-boy from the "shareholders". Until the most common of American workers insist on getting a larger share of ownership in the big wealth pie the economy will just shrink and shrink until it looks more like a feudal kingdom then the great American Republic we imagine it to be. Many of us in American culture are partly to blame. We didn't stick to the principles that old Ben Franklin talked about. We got all the props that make it look like were middle class but most of us were in debt for far more months of income than we had in any liquid assets to strike out on our own. But make no mistake, the fattest of fat cats are to blame even more because they knew several decades ago that their greed outstripped our ability to pay cash and carry. That is when they started lending money they knew would never make it back until they could get the government of the people to pay for the people out of the pockets of the people while collecting their own cool consulting fee for this grand party we've all had. Ok, I got it off my chest. I may sound like a rambling drunk, but I'm not. Just pissed for the state of America and the Great Experiment I thought we had going. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I got a 7% raise two weeks before my worthless manager was let go, along with a lot of other dead weight. I'm doing okay, glad I have a job still that pays well. | ||
| Court |
>>>On the bright side, I have about 43 years to recover the funds before retirement age That is one of the things that I see as the shining light in all this. Here in my sunset years I can look back and see that my investments have done the same thing twice, this is the third cycle, in the years I've been working. I invest a fixed amount each month and am taking the attitude that I am currently buying twice or three times the shares. I'd only get hurt if I got out. It didn't hurt that my much smarter SCU moved 75% of my stuff to Treasury Bills about 6 months ago. There is tremendous opportunity in all of this and a chance to see the strongest America ever emerge. I live in fear however that if Obama REALLY dumps $1.4T into the economy that we're going to see much tougher times. At where we are now, another $800B could be beneficial. You start getting beyond that an "supporting" so many folks, as opposed to creating jobs, we're going to have hell to pay. The prospect of a tax cheat heading the IRS adds little comfort. We'll see. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Just looked at my sales figures..... 2008 was my worst year since 1998.... Maybe I should stay off BadWeb during business hours....  | ||
| Thumper74 |
So... no layoff yet. No pay raises this year though, no new hires (due to expansion). My wife is part of the police union, the state of Ohio is seeking a 25% pay cut, higher increase in health/vision/dental complete with poor coverage, no holiday pay, etc. For now, we're doing okay. I'm working on a plan to bicycle commute to work for when the gas prices start going back up in the spring/summer. Planning on using the income tax return (bought a house in 08) and paying off most, if not all of our revolving debt. The company I work for is extremely family oriented and my boss is doing everything she can to keep from laying off. The good news is that we have products with Customers and even as things slow down, we still need to service those Customers. Rather than shortening the workweek, cutting hours or laying people off, the company had a cost savings meetings. We now show up 5 minutes early and turn the computers on rather than leave them running all night, we wear thermal underwear and keep the heat low, we've suspended corporate sponsored events (boss has spa days, regularly orders food, etc). We all chip in and do more than our regular responsibilities like making coffee, cleaning the restrooms, shoveling the snow, etc. I'd rather work a little harder and do everything I can to help a company that works so hard to keep me in a job. I should get back to work. (Message edited by Thumper74 on January 22, 2009) | ||
| Ikeman |
Court -> We are not even in the same solar system as a depression. I'm no economist but I beg to differ on this point. I challenge you to read Murray Rothbard's "America's Great Depression" and not feel an intense sense of deja vu (accompanied by a creepy cold chill running down your spine) at the federal government's "solutions" to the current economic situation. Link to pdf version: http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf | ||
| Court |
>>>>I'm no economist I am, Washburn University - 1977, and appreciate that times are tough but there are almost no elements of the current situation in common with The GREAT Depression. I do appreciate hearing about the book and would like to read it. My library is plum full of Keynes, Adam Smith, McConnell and Galbraith and it would doubtless be a good read. | ||
| Rainman |
We're doomed. Doooooooooooooomed I tell you. Besides, Nostradamus and the Mayans (Pagans or Bandidos, I get those clubs confused) predict the world will end on Dec. 21, 2012. | ||
| Davegess |
One very large difference between then and now is that we are working on solution now, back in 29 they waited 3 years until the whole system had collapsed and then they were so far behind the curve it was not until the massive federal spending of WWII that we really got out of it. If Obama really can get programs to build stuff we need, things to imporve infrastructure this whole thing could not only work but actually put us back into a truly leading economy role in the world. | ||
| J2blue |
I'm glad to hear of companies like the one James mentioned he works for above. Why can't that same spirit of give and take scale up to larger organizations? My hat is off to your boss as a true leader in difficult times. | ||
| Thumper74 |
They can't seem to keep the roads in decent enough condition let alone improve the infrastructure and make it better. I recommend a great book called 'Rant' by Chuck Palaniuk (same guy who wrote 'Fight Club'. It's set in the near future (book came out in 06 or 07) while some civil engineers are causing real accidents at key points during high traffic congestion to study the effects of these on the flow of traffic. They decided that it would be impossible to correct the infrastucture in the future and devide the country into a day shift and a night shift in order to relieve the congestion... Great book. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Based on some of things Iam hearing in this thread and the election results maybe it is time we all start depending on government alot more than we do already. Theres a political party routed in this idea. It may not seem like America anymore when they are done but at least we'll be taken care of. http://ace.mu.nu/archives/WEnotrich1.wav | ||
| Moxnix |
Markets correct. Delaying the correction makes the correction bigger and more painful. Economist Steven E. Landsburg starts a book with two lines. --"Most of economics can be summarized in four words: "People respond to incentives." The rest is commentary." "to improve infrastructure" That's the ticket. Seriously. If our government is going to spend so much $$ anyway, at least "we" will have something to use when "they" are finished skimming, over-paying, giving favors to donors, etc. | ||
| Court |
I listened to the rant by Robert Reich today about getting this $850,000,000,000 into infrastructure projects, getting them built "fast" (a scary word for the best contractors) and making certain that the money "doesn't go to white guy construction professionals but the chronically unemployed female and minorities who have not traditionally had access to the market. Who wants to be the first to drive over the bridge? | ||
| Sachmo |
"The prospect of a tax cheat heading the IRS adds little comfort. " Court, he is not a cheat, just an idiot, as confessed yesterday during his hearing, that makes me feel much better, how about you? Stupidity seems to be the number one qualification for anyone in politics and banking these days. The problem accessing the economic condition of the country is all the numbers are cooked. The bailout is fake money prolonging a depression. We don't have 20%+ unemployment because we are financing salaries. Of course the big 3 car companies will be broke again in 3 months, no one is buying enough cars, so we put off thousands of layoffs that will eventually happen anyway and just made the debt bigger. The only solution is to return to honest money, but to do that it will be bad for several years but at least we have a chance to make it out. Right now we are just digging a deeper whole. The only way this system works is for companies, governments and individual to keep getting farther and farther into debt, basically it is a ponzi scheme of the highest order. My 2 cents. | ||
| Paw |
Too bad you've never worked in a unionized company I guess. Unionized companies can do the same thing; my company (probably the largest employer in the state of CT) just pushed off raises for at least six months; that will likely translate into "none in 09." Granted it's not as bad as some have it right now, but it's still ••••••. Many layoffs throughout the company as well. And, regardless of what company you're at, the boys at the top will always be getting bonuses. Again, my company just posted over $1B profit for Q4, yet our raises are frozen? } I work for the 3rd largest company in America and they just posted a 18 Billion dollar profit for last year the plant i work in does several billion dollars of business every year...I work in the Schenectady plant of General Electric and yes we are Union...So yes i do work in a unionized company and have worked in one before GE for 8 years, I have worked union and non union and will alway prefer the security the union gives me...It's good to see your union has let the company freeze raises...But not let the company cut 10% or even 20% of your salary. If your company was non union you would be looking at a pay cut as well as a raise freeze and other benefit cuts. And as for unionized companies being able to whatever they want like non union is completely wrong...Because if they could, like i stated before you would be looking at pay and benefit cuts along with your raise freeze!!! Not to mention the big auto 3 would have gotten money from the government if not for the union protecting their salaries. Should i continue? | ||
| Paw |
One last thing...any company that is union and is in trouble is because of poor management...At GE schenectady the pay scale from the bottom man to the top is a $12 an hour difference... The last union company i worked for had a scale form bottom to top was just $5 dollars...I lost that job to mexico because the stupid management did not know how to negotiate and kept giving us whatever we wanted...GE on the other hand knows exactly how to work WITH a union...Of the total cost of labor the blue collar working is only 6% of the total cost of the final product going out the door...If the big 3 and other union companies would follow GE's lead they would be sitting pretty...And in my 10+ year of union work i have never had a fellow union brother threaten me to slow down or tell me to not to work so we can get over time...Some people watch to many movies and Saprono's. | ||
| Court |
>>>ourt, he is not a cheat, just an idiot, We both win, he's both a cheat and an idiot. He KNEW (in fact he was given specific instructions on both the requirement to file and how) he was to to file and knowingly avoided filing. That's both a cheat and an idiot. . . in this group he'll shine. | ||
| Chellem |
Everyone's always talking about the depression from the twenties. Ever hear of the earlier depression? The one that happened in the 1800's? Wanna get chills, read up on that. A friend of mine guest-blogged about it. Crazy, crazy similarities. Guess we'll never really learn. 1873 it all began... "When all was said and done, however, it really started with the Panic of 1873 and the failure of Jay Cooke and Co., the US’s preeminent investment banking concern. Cooke was the principal backer of the Northern Pacific Railroad and handled most of the government’s wartime loans. The New York Stock Exchange was closed for 10 days. Credit dried up. Foreclosures encompassed the entire nation. Banks failed. Factories closed their doors, laying off (not a common term then because they sure didn’t get compensation!) thousands of workers. Destitute people overwhelmed charities. Most of the major railroads failed. The public blamed President Grant and Congress for mishandling the economy. (Sound familiar?) As always, it’s easy to blame someone else, but the causes were much broader. The postwar Civil War period was one of frenzied, unregulated growth, and the government didn’t bother to curb abuses. More than any other single event, the extreme overbuilding of the nation’s railroad system laid the groundwork of the Panic and the Depression that followed. Recovery was not realized until 1878..." It's a blog on a Victorian Romance site, but the story is really something. I found it fascinating. http://slipintosomethingvictorian.wordpress.com/20 08/12/10/the-great-depression-part-1-of-2/ | ||
| Moxnix |
14 mos. ago I was chatting with a couple of business guys about the economy. One cringed when I said there is so much "bad money" in play that has to be driven out of the economy, yadda, yadda, and that I was surprised it hadn't happened already. We met again in November. One chap said he still hadn't closed on the family business in Springfield (MO) and he cringed again when I said the longer the closing, the more likely it will go ahead (it did the next day). The other brought up his well-set in-laws, in their 90s, hubby in a wheelchair and the sizable losses they'd suffered since July. What can they do, he asked. I said they can rest on their earlier laurels and enjoy that they lived at the very epoch of capitalism in the first two decades after WW2. Plus I suggested a couple of Canadian investments they can get into thru their investment manager. One gold and one gold and silver fund, silver being the poor man's gold,physical ownership in a Vancouver vault the old boy can wheel his chair into an look at, and several businesses that invest in Canadian farmland. I'll see him next week and see if that went anywhere. As for our economy, the real money is made when the dead cat stops bouncing on Wall Street. Lots of good companies are underpriced. The stock exchanges are evolved to list companies with stocks over $10 per share. Who would have thunk Ford or GM would ever be under that a few years ago? I suspect large companies will be relieved if health care is taken over by Washington. Once that burden is handed off, the markets should improve. Certainly big biz tossed enough $ O.B.'s direction in the campaign to be in a better spot than if they'd fought him. Every business relying on credit is in for a fit or a bankruptcy. I'm transferring every thing I can over to the wife and kids. I came into the world naked, broke and screaming. May as well go out the same way. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Who do think would pay for government healthcare? Tax payers, meaning you, me, and the companies we work for. Less healthcare costs is only a trade off to higher taxes. | ||
| Moxnix |
Yes, I do know. The point being companies are struggling with rising health care costs. Shifting the burden relieves them of substantial administrative costs, in addition to taking it off the table as an issue in hiring and making it a moot point in labor negotiations. Higher taxes are on the agenda anyway, as of noon Tuesday last. | ||
| Paw |
Every business relying on credit is in for a fit or a bankruptcy. Not every company...The majority of GE's profits comes from their financial and credit lending business which has out performed it's projections set by wall street...In this tough time it's screwed up how well GE is doing as compared to all the other companies out there and our stack has dropped by more than $30 a share...As strong as GE has been performing anyone who does not buy their stock at the current $13 to $14 dollars per share is freaking nuts...GE is matching my 401K by giving me stock...I'm loving it right now!!! Now is the time to by GE's stock...How many companies out there have out performed their wall street expectation the last two years, ever since the economy has started its downward fall GE has profited like crazy...They are one of the very few American Companies that make a ton of money year in and year out...I think they could make a ton of money teaching other companies how to manage their businesses!!! | ||
| Cityxslicker |
i do like fight clubs idea about levelling the playing field and resetting the credit / banking conglomerites | ||
| Moxnix |
In for a fit, per a financial talking head on the ray-dee-o this evening, due to cash going out on dividends rather than keeping it to weather the storm. Yes, GE is a stock worth buying and holding, what with net income, good P&E, stable sales and close to $10 per share. | ||
| Madduck |
Geithmans excuse that the "turbotax" software messed up his returns is a flat out lie. I've done my taxes with this software since it was invented and the step by step hand holding were designed specifically to prevent the most common of errors which he claims he made. The man is a liar, a cheat and an idiot. Too bad the press believes and doesn't verify this sort of story. My 84 year old mothers tax guy died last year so she did her own, successfully, for the first time ever with my turbotax program. The odds of this educated best of the best not being as smart as my mother seem slim but the prospect is frightening. | ||
| Crusty |
Oh, we ain't got a barrel of money Maybe we're ragged and funny But we'll travel along, singin' a song Side by side | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Word of the day.... Liquidity = Liquidity is when you look at your 401K and wet your pants. |
