| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
Quite a few conspiracy theorists around here. If you read the Motorcyclist article when it came out, it made a very compelling case. They lost huge advertising revenue from it, as Arai and Shoei both pulled long-time sponsorship. It was done for the right reasons and the staff deserves respect for that. The article specifically said that Shoei and Arai use different foam in the US to pass Snell than they do in the rest of the world, and it tested as inferior. It was too hard and transfered way too much energy to the brain. It was necessary to be that hard to pass Snell, but not DOT, BSI, or the Euro spec. Snell did change their test because of it, after fighting at first. The more Snell argued, the more it became obvious that they were protecting their franchise and didn't give a rat's ass about rider safety. I've bought a Suomy and AGV since that test, both were DOT and BSI rated, with NO SNELL. | ||
| Spatten1 |
It seemed to me that Snell helmets were better at multiple impacts, and harder impacts for penetration than DOT only lids. That's exactly right, Snell required the helmet to take multiple hits in the same spot. Problem is, that requires harder foam that transfers more energy to the head. The other problem is that empirical evidence shows that helmets almost never get significant hits twice in the same spot in a single crash. I believe it was Hurt report data, but I can't remember for sure. So, essentially you are giving up protection in every crash because there is some infintesmile chance that you might have two hard hits on the same spot, against all odds, according to actual research of real accidents. | ||
| Bigblock |
Well, I landed on my head wearing an Arai some time ago in the past, and I hurt my wrist. I landed on my head and hurt my wrist. I felt like my head was sliding on a nice fluffy pillow. I didn't take a nap. I bought a new Arai. 600 bucks WELL SPENT. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I have crash tested a couple of Arais under pretty extreme circumstances so you'll have to understand that when i go helmet shopping I do not feel bad at all about spending a few more dollars on another Arai. Bottom line however is this: find a good quality full face helmet with minimum dot cert. that properly fits your head (around half of all helmets purchased are at least one size too large) and ride! The gear in your closet does you no good in a crash. So sayeth the "Gear Nazi" | ||
| Jramsey |
This thread is almost as good as the one about rotor bolts. (Message edited by J.ramsey on January 20, 2009) | ||
| Jaimec |
I don't buy Snell any more for one simple reason: No modular helmet manufacturer bothers to test their helmets for Snell certification. I've crashed with two different non-Snell modular helmets (both made by Schuberth) over the decades I've been riding. I suffered no injury in either case, and the jawpiece did not "pop off." Since Schuberth is no longer marketed in this country I've switched to Nolan. Haven't crash tested those yet (and I hope I never will). I don't expect them to perform any worse even if I do. | ||
| Bbbob |
Jaime, There is hope for Schuberth in the US. There is another company that is looking to become the US distributor. I can pm you the details. I'm a big S1 fan & I've seen ads for a new C3 in Europe. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
It is not that the modular helmet companys don't try it is that they don't pass. The founder of Icon did a safety gear seminar for soldiers in Ft hood and told us that the reason they don't pass snell is because there is a test that snell does were they test the temple area of you head for impact and because the styrene area is thin in that area of a modular helmet they don't pass. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'm sure thousands of people have crashed in Arais (including ME!) and been well protected. I also know someone that was thrown from a car and saved in a crash because she was not wearing a seat belt. Neither case indicates to me that the person had maximum protection. I'm just focusing on imperical studies, period, not my own experience which is not scientific at all. Again, I crashed my XB9S with an Arai Quantum, was perfectly protected, and threw it away after the crash. This doesn't mean I'm going to ignore test data, because the next crash may be different. | ||
| Jaimec |
Somebody's pulling your chain, Firebolt. The only modular helmet that MIGHT have thinner forehead padding is the Schuberth Concept helmets which retract a sunshield into that area. The new Nolan N-103 might fall into that category too (for the same reason). You don't have to have a modular helmet to have a retractable sunshield, either. The Schuberth S3 and at least one HJC model are regular full face helmets with a retractable sun visor. Snell is voluntary, NOT mandatory. The modular helmet manufacturers just don't see any need to get the certification for their helmets, that's all. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Modular helmets don't pass because they chin bar portions of the helmets won't pass SNELL's tests. If you knew your helmet would fail, would you submit it for testing so that you could certify the failure? Modular helmets provide less protection than fixed full face helmets. Period. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
not the fore head. the area were the hinge is. There is less stryne if any in that area. (Message edited by firebolt020283 on January 18, 2009) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It's not the padding. It's the integrity of the chin bar after the first impact. | ||
| Jaimec |
The chinbar scenario makes sense. However, in the two crashes I had with the Schuberths, in neither case did the jawpiece release. A modular helmet MAY not provide as much protection as a true fullface, however a GOOD modular helmet (Schuberth, Nolan, Shoei) can provide SIGNIFICANTLY better protection than an open face or a shorty. This article is a couple of years old, but should alleviate any fears a non-racer should have about modular helmets. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, but for every glowing review of modular helmets there is a real world story of how they have failed to provide the protection expected: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Green.html http://zrxoa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=162115 http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7118 781&postcount=64 http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?sr=y&msg= 28620.10&nav=messages&webtag=ab-motorcycles http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/the-danger -of-flip-up-helmets.htm http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7088 895&postcount=1 Modular helmets simply DON'T PROVIDE THE SAME LEVEL OF PROTECTION AS TO FULL FACE HELMETS. They have break points full face helmets do not. The reason they won't pass SNELL is that the chinbar can't survive more than one impact on the chinbar without breaking. That fails SNELL's multiple impact testing scenario. If the chinbar breaks after the first impact but the chin bar of a full face helmet doesn't, the full face helmet provides better protection. Period. Now, I understand justification. Flip up helmets are comfortable, convenient, etc. You are accepting a reduced level of protection in order to wear one. Period. And the "well I'm not a racer, so I don't need ALL the protection of a full face helmet" argument is silly. That truck that meets you head on in your lane doesn't care if you are a racer or not. The impact forces are more than you are likely to experience at a track. Rarely would a race track not have run off that the truck impact doesn't. | ||
| Babired |
Didn't somebody on here state, on an earlier thread, if you are going to buy a Modular helmet look for Metal hinges for the flip up chin bar? K | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It doesn't matter if the hinges are metal or not. | ||
| Greenlantern |
"A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link." Some wise dude. | ||
| Jaimec |
Okay, so we know Fr_bstrd won't buy a modular helmet under pain of death. I get that. But I'm also going to assume that he doesn't wear full race attire on his daily commute either. Somewhere you draw the line. As previously stated, I have PERSONALLY crash tested TWO modular helmets and walked away in both cases unscathed. I'm satisfied; I really don't care if anyone else is or not. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
well they are definatly more safe than a crome nazi helmet, the three quarter helmets or those other little things cruzer guys wear | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't commute on my motorcycle. Here is my normal ride attire:  That said, I could see riding in khakis. Few people have died from road rash. They may have wanted to, but they didn't. Your head is different. The level of protection afforded by a modular helmet is less than that of a full face helmet. This is undisputed. Some folks wear half helmets, open face, beanies, etc. What you leave the house in matters not to me. What I don't agree with is the idea that modular helmets are "equal" in protection with full face helmets, because they are not. Their protection lies between open face and full face. | ||
| Edgydrifter |
Ft, I don't think anyone is arguing that modulars (even the remarkable Schuberth Concept, which remains far and away my favorite lid even though I don't wear it anymore) are as protective as a monolithic-shell full-face helmet. The argument is more chicken-and-egg regarding Snell certification. Snell has no certification for modular helmets specifically, so modulars have to be sent in to be tested as open-face or full-face. Have modular manufacturers not supplied samples to Snell because they knew they wouldn't pass the full-face test, or has Snell refused to test them because they didn't know how to categorize them, or what? Wear whatever fits you and gives you peace of mind. For me, the presence of an ECE sticker on my Vemar more than outweighs the lack of a Snell label. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Manufacturers know what the SNELL certification test standards. They have the ability to replicate these standards independently. If the modular helmets could pass the same standards as full face helmets, the manufacturers would have them tested and certified. The SNELL sticker alone is worth it. The SNELL standard, good or bad, is what is recognized here as the top standard. Anything less than pass for SNELL is fail. Modulars aren't SNELL certified simply because SNELL doesn't have a special certification for modulars. Modulars aren't tested because none will pass the SNELL certification test full face or otherwise. If there was a modular helmet that passed the SNELL certification, I might be tempted to buy one. They ARE handy. I just don't want a helmet with known weaknesses at the chin bar and that won't survive a crash. | ||
| Jaimec |
If you read the article I posted earlier, you'll see that the testers DID check jawpiece retention, they just didn't do the Snell test. Not all of the modular helmets they tested passed. And I do ride my bike whenever road conditions allow, for commuting, shopping, playing, running errands, etc. I also take cross country tours and track days. About the only thing I DON'T do is go offroad (at least, not intentionally). The only time the car comes out is when the roads are too icy. I may be crazy, but I'm NOT stupid. With the winter we've been having this year, I wish there were a Ural dealer nearby... | ||
| Danger_dave |
I get paid by Arai. You are insane if you don't wear one. I gotta eat ya know. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You're gonna go hungry if I have anything to say about it. I've bought my last Arai. And yes, I am insane. | ||
| Rubberdown |
I recently (10 weeks ago) had a 70-90 mph off-road get off wherein I clipped a very solid large object while airborne. 12 fractures and a week in the hospital. My Arai XD was severely abraded and cracked through at the right temple and cracked on the right chin bar. I was out for about 20 minutes but I think it saved my life. Snell, DOT, whatever; the Arai did its job. Nice helmet. I think any approved helmet can save your life. I buy whatever premium helmet fits best, is lightest, and has the best features for my intended application. | ||
| Danger_dave |
Davida are on the books too. | ||
| Jaimec |
Ft_bstrd: Snell helmets have a known weakness: They transmit more than the recommended amount of impact force to your skull in the majority of accidents. That doesn't stop you from buying them. That MIGHT be fixed in the 2010 standard, but that ain't here yet. I'll stick with the DOT and Euro standards. They seem to be based more on "real world" scenarios. One man's meat is another man's poison. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Any man's meat is poison to me!! (Sorry,could not resist  ) |
