| Author | Message | ||
     Ironhead1977 |
Received this in an email today. Who wudda thunk it?? You can Google the Knox Machinery Company; they exist and the President is indeed this fellow. My experience with unions would lead me to agree with Mr. Knox's assessment of the situation. In our current economic implosion we can either address the reality of our systemic problems or hue to ideological dogma and make the mess worse. The choice is ours and we will reap the harvest of our wisdom, discipline and thrift or of our foolishness, sloth and profligacy. Dear Employee, (Message edited by Blake on January 02, 2009) | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
It's real; http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp | ||
| Krassh |
After having worked as a UAW employee at McDonnell Douglas and Boeing for 12 years I have to agree with what he said. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Franklin is about 15 miles from here, I should go buy that guy a beer... | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I think most folks here live "paycheck to paycheck". If you cut the CEO/operations fat, the product should be cheaper.....which means WE ALL have more money to spend on something else. So,all the same dollars come in and all the same dollars go out........just that the elite don't get to hoard it all to them selves. Gas went down and I am spending "that" $160.00 a month on something else now.....which should be keeping somebody from losing their job. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it. | ||
| Boltrider |
Sort of along the same lines, but have you guys read Ron Paul's book The Revolution? I recommend it for anyone frustrated by the status quo. | ||
| Dynasport |
I always try to buy American when I can. I currently own a 2002 Ford Explorer. My wife is the primary driver of that vehicle. She has made it clear that when we replace it, she will pick out what we buy next and she will pay for it out of her paycheck (I paid for the Explorer and made the final decision when we bought it). The other day she said she could not think of a single Ford/Chrysler/GM product she really liked. I think a lot of car shoppers feel the same way. As long as that is the case, no amount of government subsidizing will save the American car companies in the long run. Today most people simply feel better buying a Honda or Toyota. It is going to be a long way back for Ford/Chrysler/GM. I am not sure they can make it. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I think I'm stuck with good OLD vehicles. I can't stand the big brother crap of the new stuff with doors that lock automatically, lights that stay on,seat belt and key buzzers,tran's that won't come out of park unless you step on the brakes and all the other BS you have to pay for, but don't want or need............I DO have a drivers license.............to me, that means I am capable and competent of doing all that stuff myself. | ||
| Bhillberg |
I am a union member. Have been for 7 years. While this guy makes some good points, he seems to really have it in for the unions. I recognize that I get paid and treated well by my company and it is because of the union I am in. My company and union seem to work well together though. Yes, they had some hard years in the past but now have grown to work together. Maybe it is just as much a problem that the CEO gets his big bonus as that forklift driver makes the money he does. How many forklift drivers salaries make up his bonus? | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Funny how plants can run just fine when the CEO's are out of town. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Labor is about 10% of the cost of a automobile. Unions make up 12.1 percent of the workforce - U.S. Dept of Labor http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm Considering the above statistics, I think it's time the haters find someone else to blame. You're beating a dead horse  | ||
| Dynasport |
The problem is the perception that the cars aren't as good and have to be sold at a discount to the competition in order get them off the lot. People are willing to pay more for a Civic or Corolla than they are a Cobalt or a Focus. They believe the Civic will be more reliable and a better car. The same applies to the rest of the lineup. It certainly doesn't help that CEOs are seen as out of touch and that union workers are seen as lazy and that both are seen as greedy. We can point fingers at management or unions all day long, but until more people prefer the American product the car companies are in bad trouble. Relying on patriotism to sell cars isn't working well enough anymore. For the record, my Explorer has been a pretty good vehicle. The electrical system (power windows and locks) being the lone area that has been trouble prone. I have driven several different American made sedans owned by my employer and assigned to me over the past few years. Most have been pretty good. A few years ago I had a Chevy Impala that was crap. I now drive a new Impala that has been very good, but I only have 8,000 miles on it so far. The best car I have ever owned was a Toyota Camry. I should have never sold that car. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"Labor is about 10% of the cost of a automobile"......... Labor is 100% of the cost of a car.At some point in time, every single piece came out of the ground, some place,some how..... for free. Just like water.......it's free. You have to pay somebody to get it to you. Why do we import steel? Somebody is digging it out of the ground, processing git and bringing it here for less labor costs.............pretty simple if you ask me. | ||
| Bbbob |
Looking at this just as a consumer, I own 2 American cars, a '99 Lincoln Continental with 110K mi & '01 Merc Grand Marquis w/ 31K mi. Every other month one of them is in the shop for something stupid, door switches, power window buttons, O2 sensors, it's always something. Their are 4 Hondas in the family, 3 Accords & a Civic, all with well over 100K on the clock, not one of these cars has had a penny spent on them for anything other then the basics, tires, brake pads etc. I want to buy American, but money is tight, it will be a tough decision... | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"Labor is about 10% of the cost of a automobile"......... Labor is 100% of the cost of a car" I wasn't clear. 10% refers to the actual union assembly of the vehicle...in other words, the guy on the line that made the part and the guy who assembled the parts together. It's UAW specific. (Message edited by Ferris_von_bueller on January 01, 2009) | ||
| Az_m2 |
Anyone know what CEO bonus is as % of the cost of an automobile? Chris | ||
| Mikej |
Politics, Religion, Abortion, Unions, all are flammable subjects and are best approached with a finger hovering over the backspace key. Happy New Year Defn: Bailout: Removing water that has washed into a boat so you don't sink. A bailout is not supposed to buy you a new bigger boat. | ||
| Bhillberg |
Well the thing is that it is not just the CEO's bonus. When you really look at it, look at ALL the salary/management. I know that where I work it is their mission to make sure we don't get overtime. I am not an overtime monger, but it is a nice option to have at times. If you look at it though they are all trying to cut overtime and then at the end of the year every one of them gets a bonus based on their performance. I have no idea how much but it would be interesting to see how much overtime they could pay out of those bonuses. | ||
| Az_m2 |
I'm curious because when I read these discussions, I often see CEO bonuses posted as a reason for the non-competiveness of US automakers. Would be interesting to see how bonus $ compares to union labor $. I have a feeling that the bonuses are a drop in the bucket compared to the added wages / benefits of union labor compared to non-union labor. But I could be wrong. Anyone done the research? Chris | ||
| Bhillberg |
In all honesty it is probably one of those highly guarded figures that you really can't find. I am sure that there are a ton of kickbacks that could be grouped in with bonuses. I will say that I have never stepped foot in an automaker facility, so I don't know how bad it really is there or what % of the cost is attributed to labor. I do know that with the product that my shop ships (aircraft engines) union wages is a VERY small portion. Management wages are a VERY small portion. The thing is that these are the only real things they (large companies) can control. I mean they NEED the materials, so they can't really go without them. The supplier can force them into paying pretty much what they want.So when you think about it that way what can they control? Turn the lights off when you leave to save electricity and try to get people to work for less, or cut overtime or something. The point that it is the faith in the product (or lack there of) that is killing the American auto makers is probably the truest statement you can take from this post. I mean for years they did just fine with paying good wages to their workers. They were paying retirements in the 60's, 70's and 80's and did just fine. When the foreign auto makers showed up though and originally had a cheaper product that lasted longer is when the problems started. There are plenty of American made automobiles that have over 200k on the odometer and are still running well. That is not the perception anymore though. This could go in the direction though that a lot of "American made" autos are actually no more made in America than a lot of toyota's or honda's. That is probably better left for another post though. | ||
| Bombardier |
INTEGRITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY. Not something you will hear very much these days at any level in any business......well you might up to the point of anyone actually having to use the above behaviors. I do not think that any manufacturer of an automobile would set out to make it less than reliable, at least not inside the warranty period. It is the results(fiscal) driven ideoligy that sweeps issues under the carpet so that manager X will achieve the magical BUDGET and ON TIME. Buck passing at its worst because the next person in the chain has to pay for the issue which could have been fixed quite simply at an earlier stage. Time to be customer focused and not budget focused methinks. | ||
| Bbbob |
I would think the auto makers have control over the suppliers. If the parts are sourced through competitive bidding. I would think they are doing so now, it would seem to explain why they use so many foreign sourced parts. | ||
| Froggy |
Ive been avoiding these threads because it is tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over and having people ignore me, but I just wanted to poke a few of the posts here.
Yes and there have been issues with this, the suppliers are drying up and unable to make parts anymore, auto makers are suing suppliers for breaching contract and other things. A bit of a chicken and egg scenario, they both need each other. Posts regarding CEO pay and employee benefits, GM spends more on Viagra alone each year than the annual pay of their CEO Rick Wagoner. $16 million a year for Viagra and $14 million a year for Rick before his latest pay cut. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_v iagra.html
CEO's don't run the plants.
GM's CEO and other execs are not getting any bonus, so that number is 0%. As for the email in the first post, I do agree with him on most of it.
Yes they did just recently wake up. Rick Wagoner took over GM in 2000, and since then they have been doing everything they can to undo 30 years worth of damage. | ||
| Brumbear |
because they Have to but they should HAVE all along I don't want to hate American cars or the makers The problems are to many to list but the american car companies are there own worst enemy just like many other corprate systems liking a product should make you angry when the maker screws it up. I don't want GM to go away I grew up on them I loved pontiac as a kid. But if it aint right money won't fix it people caring and getting angry might. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"$16 million a year for Viagra and $14 million a year for Rick before his latest pay cut."....yeah but,the $16 million is spread out amongst a million current and retired employees....not just one or two CEO's. So now I have to change my thoughts a bit.....no matter where you go or what you do, it's all about money, people using you and now...... "screwing". | ||
| Bhillberg |
I am not being a jerk, but honestly CEO's have zero bonuses? Where do you get that? I guarantee not out of there checking accounts! I am sure it is nice to say in a magazine but I doubt there are zero bonuses. The fact of the matter is that the bonuses don't make an impact on why there is an issue on the product. All I am saying is that everybody wants to point fingers at useless union workers when I have seen an amazing amount of engineers that have seriously been in charge of making sure that the rolley chairs wheels are working! The fact of the matter is that it is not wages, just overall horrible mismanagement!! Just like how 9/11 supposedley killed the airlines but it was realy an excuse to unload years of poor management | ||
| Just_ziptab |
What was that Chrysler engineering bling.......Tomahawk. Cool bike, but I bet you don't see that happen again. | ||
| Ourdee |
Tomahawk was only designed to advertise the engine. | ||
| Blake |
"Labor is about 10% of the cost of a automobile. Unions make up 12.1 percent of the workforce - U.S. Dept of Labor http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm Considering the above statistics, I think it's time the haters find someone else to blame. You're beating a dead horse" We're not being asked to bail out the entire workforce, just the big three American auto-makers. And only looking at union labor cost is a small part of the issue. To evalute the cost of union you simply need to compare a union run production plant to one that is non-union. From what I understand, the wages and benefits of the UAW add on average approximately $1,500 to the price of every vehicle they manufacture compared to non-union facotries like Toyota and others. I agree, that CEO compensation is ridiculously high in some cases, but that isn't what has run the businesses into bankrupcy and caused them to lose so much market share to the competition. I have no more loyalty left for domestically produced automobiles from GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Michele just traded in her Ford Exploder for a nice Saab. It's GM in some respect, but its made in Sweden. Nice car. | ||
| Honu |
Some questions? Is there Union labor in China? Is there Union labor at US banks? Is there Union labor at Fannie Mae an Freddie Mac? Is there Union labor at Auto Dealerships? |
