| Author | Message | ||
     Alii1959 |
Having read most of this thread I am beginning to feel that the most obvious problems are being ignored. Harley came back from the brink, not because of the government nor because of the salaries of the workers....but, simply because they began to build, again, a product that the public was willing to pay for. The same is true in the automotive industry. I quit buying American made cars years ago......why??? Because I have to watch my own resources always attempting to get the most bang for my money. And....nothing the Big 3 have produced nearly 20 years has excited me enough to drag me into the show rooms. Further, when I did go I found salesmen, financiers, and companies who were unwilling to work with me or unwilling to price things that I could afford. I have little sympathy for the companies, while having great sympathy for the workers. I cannot imagine working for a company who has to depend upon the consumer for survival and watching them produce products that are unwanted. How could these guys have mismanaged such a dominant position? How could they squander their lead? Its just kinda sad really. All of us debate the issue while the guys who ran the companies into the ground get huge undeserved bonuses. I'm really funny about who I spend my money with. I want quality, value, and great customer service.....something many large companies have forgotten, especially the American auto makers. I realize that the Mustang II was over thirty years ago, but how in the world did it take Ford nearly thirty years to build a new Mustang that seemed to be the true son of the one from the '60s. At least BMWs generally always look like BMWs....they play to their strengths. So does Harley. I hope they make it through these hard times. I would love to "buy American" I just can't justify the cost and I am not alone.....witness the fact that Toyota is now #1. They didn't get there because they somehow "cheated". They got there because they are selling what people want....simple as that. Could be why the iPod out sells everything else.....Apple knows what they are doing. Why can't the American Big 3 learn from Apple?? Arrogance, self-congratulation, and simple short-sightedness. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
"Again. Use your brain. 8% of American workers are Union. Seems to me the other 92% are the ones that F*cked it up. Ever think of it in those terms?" Yup, I've tried to think like that... But as I have worked in two union shops in my career, I know that isn't the case. The Autoworkers compensation packages are unrealistic. Not just wages. It's the Insurance, and retirement that account for a lot of it. But their pay rate is still unrealistically high for many. Since many of those jobs entail nothing more than unskilled labor. | ||
| Cochise |
Has anybody even driven a Honda in a while? My sister had a 1981 Honda Civic Hatchback. I hated that thing. I drive Honda's every day. If Honda's are such crap, how come people line up figuratively around the block to get a 150K mile CR-V or Accord? Case in point, we had a 2000 Honda Accord for $10K and it sold in about 3 days. Other side, we had a 90k mile chevy something or other and nobody will take a look at it for about $6k. Rocco, you have got to admit that being in a union fitting sprinkler and building cars are 2 different things. One guy to read the print, one guy to run the machine and not touch a ladder, one guy to turn the wrench, one guy to cut rod, etc. We didn't have unions at our Sprinkler Company and we were able to get jobs done pretty darn well. We'd get about 8 guys doing there own runs and not having to worry about some kid slowing us down. Want to work through your breakj? Go for it. Only guy looking over your shoulder was the Crew Leader and he was using the power machine right beside us. | ||
| Court |
If you told a 7 year old child that you were going to pay someone 95% of their pay for NOT working they'd give you that quizzical look like a 10 week old Lab looking at an oscillating fan for the first time. The unions have convinced folks that things like this are a "right". Anyone wonder why America is laughing while some folks get the pies they baked slammed in their faces? | ||
| Xbpete |
It is a case of Americans in general living with the notion of entitlements, not just union based but present in all sectors of society. How about an honest days work for an honest days pay ... and throw out the specialization that so many workers have, "that's not my job" Your job should be that for the compensation you receive, you put forth the effort to assure that the people paying you profit from that effort, thereby making you an asset. It is an "hours for dollars" mentality that I lived through with my 30 years as a contractor, not a sense of " for my efforts, this house is the result and I am proud to have been a part of it" This is the new American way, I like the old way better | ||
| Ustorque |
let me just go on record with this and say shit like this makes me sick! why is it that when things start to take a header it's the average american who is the problem and not the greedy CEO who feels the need to give out 7 figure bonuses to himself and all his buddies, as they try to convince the country that they are out of money and can't afford to operate any longer. how many of the Big 3 higher ups will go without this Christmas? will any of them refuse their bonus check at the end of the year for the good of the company and it's employees? i don't think so, but let's blame the employees thats easier. they can't afford to keep the doors open, no they can't afford to pay "themselves" and keep the doors open and thats the simple fact. maybe it's time for these guys to hop back into reality, maybe it's time for them to help the country instead of the other way around. let me put this into a little bit of perspective for you: my company is owned by 6 people, 5 brothers and 1 sister. they have each allocated themselves a $500,000/yr salary and they only step foot in the place the one day during the first week of January to collect and they are not seen again till the next year. they have never worked a day in their life at the company, it was given to them by their father. thats $3 mil. paid out wether it's there or not. if our company was to say "we had a bad year", what would their response be, "FU give me my money". it sure as hell wouldn't be "make sure they company has what it needs to survive, and we'll make due". it all starts from the top down. remember the old saying "shit flows downhill" it couldn't be more true and the little guy is always left holding the bag! | ||
| Ducxl |
Your job should be that for the compensation you receive, you put forth the effort to assure that the people paying you profit from that effort, thereby making you an asset. I'm painfully aware of that and measure how many widgets i make every day. Knowing the cost per part,i try and quantify my existence there. "Value added". I'm certainly jealouse of the package the UAW has been able to negotiate.It's just,they've jeopardized their existence. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
The big CEO's are like ball sport coaches......they get their money, no matter how the season went. They have a bad season, they get canned with full pay to the end of the contract,regardless of how many years are left on it and go on to the next ball club(company) for even more pay and bonuses. Diss the fact of the players (workers)are the root of wining/losing. Somebody has to approve this bullshit. It simply must be the board of directors and stock holders.....motivated by greed/money. Hard to say how much shit goes on under the table. Like I've said before.......no matter where you go or what you do.........it's about money, God damned money. | ||
| Xbpete |
Totally agree with excess in corporate exec "compensation" Case in point... NY is or was getting involved in green energy. Our former Gov. decided we must be 25% renewable by 2013. It created the wind turbine industry here. Massive dollars for GE turbines mounted 400 feet in the air. Just what the folks on Long Island don't want to see off the coast... ANyhow, there were several start ups, mostly around 2004. One that I personally was involved with was a company out of Connecticut, Noble Environmental Power. Their IPO was an intersting 153 page read with the CEO and COO being paid 420K per year with a bonus equal to 100% of their salary. Mind you, they had not produced a single watt of electricity as of the IPO for common stock. Salaries for executive board was over 21 million per year for the first 2 years while they erected about 150 turbines , we New Yorkers are now nearly 5 years into their various projects in with not a single watt produced, they still are not online! Of course they all got their bonuses this year and when Lehman went belly up, did they cut back? That would be unAmerican! They sold their assets in Michigan to cover the bonuses... The wind industry is backed by government energy credits, massive depreciation schedules, state funded buy downs through Albany... the biggest scam I have ever seen. All being under the umbrella of "green energy". I know where the green comes in, it is only substitution of an "n" for a "g" Corporate execs should be held accountable to profit, does not get done now does it, Big 3 execs are only the latest visible example of a country of excess trotted out by CNN, start cutting at the top | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Expect to see an acceleration of the "green" machine along with a ramming through of Kyoto like protocols. | ||
| Court |
I sure wouldn't say that $420K a year is"excessive". Heck there were PM's at Indian Point who were making better than $350K/Yr. I assume your point is that they should not be collecting the bonuses. During the years I owned my company I never paid "Christmas bonuses" as they were too likely to be seen as an annual entitlement. Instead, we all met offsite for 2 days each year, prepared a plan, goals and an agreed way of measuring and how profits would be distributed among the company, the officers, foreman and field forces. I let them name the carrot and define how they got it. It then became little more than execution. I like having responsibility, authority and rewards linked. It's not always easy. | ||
| Xbpete |
My point was that four years of venture capital invested ..., Bank Suisse, Lehman, J.P. Morgan... BOD and Exec salaries and bennies for over 11M and nothing was or is produced, net loss in 2007 was 70M Yes, the bonuses and perks were paid. Total compensation per BOD, CEO and COO were light by comparison to Exxon, GM or Ford during the same time period but sure are indicative of the executive corporate mindset... | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Cochise, who ever said Hondas were junk? My 1st car was a 1979 Honda Civic. I LOVED that car. Go me 42 MPG on the HWY, 30+ around town, etc... But $10K for a 2000? Ya gotta be kidding. I recently paid $2200 for a '98 Subaru Forester. It's my 1st Japanese car in over a decade. | ||
| Bads1 |
I recently paid $2200 for a '98 Subaru Forester. It's my 1st Japanese car in over a decade. And run it will. We had a 2000 outback. Zero problems and awesome in the snow. Better then most trucks. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
my company is owned by 6 people, 5 brothers and 1 sister. they have each allocated themselves a $500,000/yr salary and they only step foot in the place the one day during the first week of January to collect and they are not seen again till the next year. they have never worked a day in their life at the company, it was given to them by their father. thats $3 mil. paid out wether it's there or not. if our company was to say "we had a bad year", what would their response be, "FU give me my money". it sure as hell wouldn't be "make sure they company has what it needs to survive, and we'll make due". I know what you mean man. Iam a fairly smart guy but I dont make a tenth of what Ludacris, J-Lo or P-diddy make. P-diddy cant even form a complete sentence! Then you have pro aphletes. Alot of these guys are big pampered giants and the money they rake in is crazy. Not fair. What about Bill Gates. Iam basically forced to buy his software and he earns some crazy amount of money. Wheres my stuff? I want some of that loot! Life just isnt fair. Things are about to change though. | ||
| Froggy |
Actually GM hasn't had bonuses for the high ups in a few years. They all has pay cuts too. GM CEO Rick Wagoner is going to be making a $1 a year from now on. Johnnymceldoo, you are not forced to buy anyones software. There are alternatives to Windows if you want to go that route, but be prepared to open your wallet and get frustrated at how counter intuitive things are. But thats for another thread  | ||
| Ustorque |
Actually GM hasn't had bonuses for the high ups in a few years. They all has pay cuts too. GM CEO Rick Wagoner is going to be making a $1 a year from now on. Frank, if that is true then i commend him and anyone else at GM for it, it would be one of many pieces to the puzzle that need to be addressed | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Johnnymceldoo, you are not forced to buy anyones software. There are alternatives to Windows if you want to go that route, but be prepared to open your wallet and get frustrated at how counter intuitive things are. But thats for another thread : ) I know Iam not. That whole post was sarcasm but sadly I couldnt deliver it the right way. We are all born with free will and no one owes me anything. | ||
| Danger_dave |
>>get frustrated at how counter intuitive things are. << I just cntrl-alt-deleted myself. | ||
| Newbuellertoo |
I am a "Shop Floor" level of management. In the last 6 years I have had two raises. Neither of them above two percent. Unfortunately when things get tough it is the people at the manufacturing level who take the hit, not those closer to the top. I'm sure it is the same way in most corporations regardless of what business they are in. I'm not complaining, I am paid very well, and to me it's not all about the money anyway. When raises were cancelled it made no difference to how hard I worked or how much effort I put into my job. My pride at a job well done and reputation as a good employee are more important to me than my level of renumeration. | ||
| Brumbear |
I don't know this but can we find out what an assembly line worker in a TOYOTA plant makes here and abroad and compare them with the big 3 here and abroad just curious and even compare them demagraphicly IE 20k dodge US average US Salary 19K 15K yearly Dodge Mexico average salary Mexico 11K I will try but I am not that good on the internet | ||
| Brumbear |
http://rightvoices.com/2008/11/18/average-total-co mpensation-for-a-big-three-autoworker-is-7321-an-h our-toyota-honda-and-nissan-pay-a-still-generous-4 420-an-hour-in-total-compensation-%E2%80%94-a-cost -edge-of-nearly-40/ this was all I could come up with so far | ||
| Patrick2cents |
$73.21 an hour??????? that is absolutely ridiculous! you know I hear a lot of finger pointing at CEO's and other exec's as being "greedy" frankly if you posses a skill set to manage a company of that size, you are in high demand, and should be paid accordingly (now if there is some abuse, or shady business that is another matter). To be frank, $73/hr is plain greed on the part of the average "i deserve it" American. I personally think that we need to get back to a market value for auto jobs. if you don't like what they pay, find a better job. None of this union's strong arming companies for the greed of the workers! | ||
| Court |
>>>>Life just isn't fair. Things are about to change though. That's what we were chanting at Woodstock. Guess what? . . life is not fair. Ever see some of the folks who die of cancer, the families who tragically loose loved ones to drunk drivers and so on . . . I've always found that anytime I subvert those things, personal responsibility, accountability and control of my destiny to anyone else, be it a boss or a government that the results are always disappointing and seldom fair. The "Change" mantra touted in the recent election was little more than an elixir to intoxicate those unwilling or unable to shape their own destiny. My favorite quote, from the night McCain and Obama were at Columbia . . . "change". . . "what change"" . . . "you know dude, just change". Never find better weed than a college campus. | ||
| Rainman |
Too bad I can't afford to send my kids to one. What other industry has increased costs to consumers between 7 and 11 percent a year for 10 years knowing that banks and governments would make sure parents went ass-over-tea-kettle into debt to make sure Johnny got to school? Now the banks and governments are pulling back, the parents can't get a loan and Johnny can't get a job but are the colleges dropping costs? We're doomed. Doooooooooooommmed, I tell you. (Thread hijack over. Talk amongst yourselves.) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Let them eat Cake | ||
| Brumbear |
To be fair they don't make that thats what it costs to keep them there and that is a greedy union and mismangement if these guys were that good the cars would be better than the Jap cars and they really are not. I beleive we have an EPIC FAIL across the boards this is just disheartening | ||
| M1combat |
There is no Cake. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I think there is no clearer vote of confidence of the American Auto Industry than its sales. IF the value, style, economy were there and competitive with foreign brands, then guess what, the would sell some damn cars. Obviously they are not. I JUST saw a commercial for a ESCALADE at 69,000 (sale price 57k). wth? Get real. I can think of so many other places that I would spend that kind of money. | ||
| Froggy |
Slicker lets go back to the chart I posted on the first page of this thread:  8 Imports, 8 Domestics. So what you won't buy an Escalade? Many people with that kind of money will. Nothing from Toyota and Honda appeals to me, I don't go complaining about the 0% financing commercials Toyota has been spamming. |
