| Author | Message | ||
     Xbpete |
I have read and contributed to the discussions and rants about English, corporate bail outs and the down slide of our auto industry into mediocrity. Source problem is the expectation of the gov't to provide for any and all short comings in life... we were born or are here and Washington will help us... we have created systems that are self perpetuating, enabling many to live off the tit of America. Personally, I am glad that the children today are not subject to "duck and cover" drills that warped many minds in the mid 20th c. but beyond that, my faith in the welfare state and the education system that bleeds us dry is lost! One thread complains of the drain on our education system by children of illegals, more than that it is the drain on local economies by school boards and teachers unions who suck and grab dollar upon dollar for ridiculous programs and compensation that provide our country with children who cannot even make change at McDonalds without the aid of a machine. We need to cut the excess and dwell on the basics... reading, writing, mathematics, history.. support for athletic programs and after school activities is absurd, the education system is now geared to provide breakfast to dinner activities so mom and dad can work.... and still little John can't read or think after he is not left behind. Let the good teachers teach for many years, not bail out after 20 years.. do some math and find the true cost of the teacher with bennies and his/her former position holders. I thought a teaching career was a LIFELONG pursuit, having a goal of getting out in 20 with lots of compensation and health care for the remainder of their life.. is wasteful, the American way. My daughter is a teacher in the D.C. area, I am NOT trying to downplay the importance or efforts of the teacher in civilized society... The cost of education is absurd even without the illegal alien tax.. Heaven help us! | ||
| Miamiuly |
Today's kids have, "Duct tape and cover." Just make an airtight room and breathe slowly until we come rescue you- you know, the way we rescued New Orleans.  | ||
| Midknyte |
man, this is shaping up to be a very long hard winter  | ||
| Bill0351 |
"One thread complains of the drain on our education system by children of illegals, more than that it is the drain on local economies by school boards and teachers unions who suck and grab dollar upon dollar for ridiculous programs and compensation that provide our country with children who cannot even make change at McDonalds without the aid of a machine." I can't comment on your local situation, but when held up against my own inside view of the education system, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I teach in an overcrowded building with constant HVAC issues. Though we are structurally at max capacity, several funding referendums have failed to be passed. Despite that, we adapt and keep finding ways to make things work. After teaching for seven years, I make just under 40K. Though I do have two months off in the summer, I work about 10 hours a day when school is in. I think it comes out in the wash. I don't complain about the pay at all. I'm totally satisfied, but I don't see it as extravagant. My insurance is good, but it compares with my friend's who work in private industry. I pay $200 per month for it, and it has a $750 family deductible. Again, I am totally satisfied, but I don't see it as extravagant. I don’t know a single teacher from my district who has retired after 20 years. The average is closer to twice that. The last 3 retirements from my building were from people who taught from their early 20s to their mid 60s. We have a very high graduation rate, and a high rate of students who go on for additional education. The skills one needs to make change at McDonald’s are taught in the 2nd Grade and mastered by the 4th. As for support of athletics, I used to coach an after-school running program. Our total drain on the system was the use of the existing track facility which is really just a part of our physical education department. In fact, you would be surprised how many non-varsity sports are coached by volunteers, are self funded and merely make use of existing school infrastructure. Varsity sports are a different story, but any hint of curtailing them brings throngs of outraged parents to school board meetings. Sure, there are problems with the system, but the tone of your message suggests you see it as a seething cauldron of greed and waste. From my perspective it is an extremely successful system that needs constant tweaking and adjustment rather than a disastrous system that needs a complete overhaul. Again, that is just the view from my limited perspective from within my district. Your experience may be completely different. On a side note: In my district, the limiting factor in most children’s education isn’t the education system. It is the involvement and support of the parents. Show me a kid from a stable supportive family, and I will probably show you a successful student. Send me a kid who is the child of a single parent with an alcohol problem, and I can only do so much. The same goes for children who are forced to essentially raise their brothers and sisters because the parents were involuntarily switched to night shift. (Both are recent real examples.) Bill | ||
| Court |
Bill: Kudos to you. There are few higher callings than teaching. We should be ashamed of the way we treat, train and care for them. Thank you, Court | ||
| Malott442 |
I agree. Nice write up Bill. My write up is not intended to solve the problem. I was only addressing one source. You're right, it is a highly faceted and complicated problem we are facing, the dumbing down of America. I see many areas that should be focused on -Parental activities -Social environment -Media -Social morals, values, traditions, folkways -Funding and I'm sure I missed about 95 other areas. My sister is a teacher, and her college bill totalled up to be over 120k, and now after 5 years she is worried about further cuts...... 900 teachers laid off in the Lakeland, FL area. That worries me day and night. For her, for us, for the youth.... | ||
| Jlnance |
I can't comment on your local situation, but when held up against my own inside view of the education system, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I concur. I couldn't be happier with the education my children received from the Wake County school system. It was much better than the one I received in the 70s and 80s, and mine wasn't bad. There are always problems, and problems make the news. I think people often highlight the problems in order to justify funding increases, but that is counter productive. It leaves the general public with the impression that schools can't teach anything. | ||
| Kyrocket |
I can't find it now but I once had a joke about someone figuring a teacher's pay, saying it was too much. Basically it said that they are merely a babysitter for eight hours a day and at $3 per kid per hour it came out to some outlandish number and they figured the math to be wrong. It was figured another way and it came out to be even higher...The point is and I believe it to be true, there are two professions that are grossly underpaid in my opinion, law enforcement and teachers. My hats off to everyone who teaches, especially in today's foul mouthed, baggy britches, no respect, teachers aren't human world. I would never make it. And the police, everyone wants to bad mouth them until they need them. What other job has as many dangers and what ifs? What if this driver is armed, what if they shoot, what if I don't get home to my family tonight? Thought so. | ||
| 86129squids |
"Dumbing us Down" is in my library- a great book by a great mind. Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling by John Taylor Gatto Published by New Society Publishers (4527 Springfield Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19143) 1992: 104 pages, $9.95 paper John in class with his kids From the back cover: John Taylor Gatto has just resigned [1992] after 26 years of award-winning teaching in Manhattan's public schools. He will continue practicing his unique guerrilla curriculum with the Albany Free School, while travelling around the country to promote a radical transformation of state schooling. Dumbing Us Down reveals the deadening heart of compulsory state schooling: assumptions and structures that stamp out the selfknowledge, curiosity, concentration and solitude essential to learning. Between schooling and television, our children have precious little time to learn for themselves about the community they live in, or the lives they might lead. Instead, they are schooled to merely obey orders and become smoothly functioning cogs in the industrial machine. In his 26 years of teaching, John Taylor Gatto has found that independent study, community service, large doses of solitude and a thousand different apprenticeships with adults of all walks of life are the keys to helping children break the thrall of our conforming society. For the sake of our children and our communities, John Taylor Gatto urges all of us to get schools out of the way and find ways to re-engage children and families in actively controlling our culture, economy and society. "John Gatto's splendid writings say exactly what needs to be said. I just hope people are listening." - Christopher Lasch, author, The True and Only Heaven "These are moving and powerful pieces. I shall reread them many times." - Deborah W. Meier, Founder, Central Park East Secondary School, East Harlem Advance Praise for Dumbing Us Down: Ever since winning notice as the New York State Teacher of the Year, John Taylor Gatto has been offered opportunities to share his critique of compulsory education. People from all across North America responded so strongly to his talks and occasional articles, that we asked him to write the longer pieces collected here in Dumbing Us DowrL Here's some of what people are saying about John's work "Your words hit the nail on the head. Our schools leave no time for kids to be with parents and the community. The seeds of your ideas are here ready to sprout." - Bonni McKeown, Capon Springs, WV "I heard you speak on the McNeill/Lehrer News Hour and am in complete agreement with you. When I first started teaching here, I was amazed to find everything the same as in New York City~the same insane assumptions, the same insane beliefs, the same insane way of doing things, the same lack of education." - Ed Rauchut, NEH Teacher/Scholar for Nebraska, Omaha, NE "Your words very concisely captured all my frustrations and concerns of wanting to be an 'educator' in a society that schools well but fails to educate. Amen, Amen, Amen! is my response." - Kathleen Trumbull, Teacher, Silver Bay, MN "I am not an educator, nor a parent, nor a concerned citizen. I am a product of the problems you describe. Although I had a passionate desire to learn, some excellent teachers and a diploma, I realized very soon how almost useless the whole experience had been for me. Parents, students, especially the students, need to know the things you talk about." - Praya Desai, Philadelphia, PA "Anyone like John Gatto, with the courage and tenacity to go against the bureaucratic hierarchy, is looked upon as a troublemaker. But the principles that John espouses are really not new or radical, but fundamental to learning anything. The fact that that they seem controversial to current administrators shows how far they have strayed from the real purpose of their employment." - Ron Hitchon, Intermodal East, Secaucus, NJ "Your analysis of the crisis in schooling, its difference from real education and the relation between schooling/television and the apathetic blindered world view so prevalent among Americans really gets to the root of our disintegrated society. " - David Werner, The Hesperian Foundation, Palo Alto, CA "What you say is really happening on my island. It is very true that schooling is made for those people who are intended to be controlled and their lives predicted." - Alfred T. Apatang, Rota, M.P. "You have enlightened as well as frightened me. I win think carefully about many many things but ever so carefully about bringing the human spirit back into my classroom to help my children see and feel the wholeness of their lives." - Ruth Schmitt, Tuba City, AZ Publisher's Note The social philosopher Hannah Arendt once wrote that, "The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any. "* If one were to poll our nation's leading educators about what the goal of our educational systems should be, I suspect one would come up with as many goals as educators. But I also imagine that the capacity to form one's own convictions independent of what was being taught in the classroom, the ability to think critically based upon one's own experience, would not rank high on many lists. In fact, the idea that the goal of education might have little to do with what goes on in the classroom would likely strike most educators, of whatever political stripe, as heresy. In the context of our culture, it is easy to see that critical thinking is a threat. As parents, we all want what is "best" for our children. Yet, by our own actions and lifestyles, and through the demands that we place on our educational institutions, it is clear that by "best" we all-too-often mean . most." This shift from the qualitative to the quantitative, fi7om thinking about what is best for the holistic development of the individual human being to thinking about which resources should be available to serni-monopoly governmental educational institutions certainly does not bear close scrutiny. Shouldn't we also ask ourselves what the consequences are of scrambling to provide the "most" of everything to our children in a world of fast-dwindling resources? What does the mad and often brutally competitive scramble for resources-for more pay for teachers, for more equipment, for more money for schools-teach our children about us? More crucially, what message does this mad scramble send to those children who, through no fault of their own, lose out in the competition? And what would be the cost to the social fabric if our children's convictions were based on their experience? (Perhaps we are already paying the cost of the development of such convictions, however poorly articulated, in the forms of violence, chemical dependency, teenage pregnancy, and a host of other social fils affecting today's young people?) Eclectic, engaging, and not readily pigeon-holed, John Taylor Gatto's thinking forces us to re-examine some of our most cherished assumptions in the light of his and his students'day-to-day experience. He provides few ready made solutions or optimistic answers for the future of our schools. What he does provide through the example of his twenty-six years of teaching is first a commitment to providing quality options to the poor and disadvantaged, who are most in need of them, and second conscienticization so that at least his students come to some critical understanding of what is being done to them in the name of "schooling." Gatto's vision of our social order may be bleak, but It also provides at least a ray of hope in the example and idea that free-thinking and critically aware indviduals, freely united in newly reconstructed communities can correct social Ills and lead us toward a future truly worth living in. Because we share the conviction that this is both desirable and possible, we at New Society Publishers are proud to publish Dumbing Us DowrL - David H. Albert for New Society Publishers 13 June 1991 *Hanna Arendt, Totalitarianism (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1968), p168. Click here to read a chapter from the book. Back to the Review page Back to Gatto page | ||
| Kyrocket |
Found it, here it is... I'm fed up with teachers and their hefty salary guides. What we need here is a little perspective. If I had my way, I'd pay these teachers myself...I'd pay them babysitting wages. That's right...instead of paying these out-rageous taxes, I'd give them $3.00 an hour out of my own pocket. And, I'm only going to pay them for five hours, not coffee breaks. That would be $15.00 a day. Each parent should pay $15.00 a day for these teachers to babysit their children. Even if they have more than one child, it's still cheaper than private daycare. Now how many children do they teach a day - maybe twenty? That's $15.00 X 20 = $300.00 a day. But remember, they only work 180 days a year! I'm not going to pay them for all those vacations. $300 X 180 = $54,000. (Just a minute, I think my calculator needs batteries.) I know you teachers will say what about those who have ten years of experience and a master's degree? Well, maybe (just to be fair) they could get the minimum wage, and instead of just babysitting, they could read the kids a story. We can round that off to about $5.00 an hour, times five hours, times twenty children. $5.00 X 5 X 20. That's $500 a day times 180 days. That's $90,000. HUH???? Wait a minute. Let's get a little perspective here. Babysitting wages are too good for those teachers. Did anyone see a salary guide around here???! | ||
| Bill0351 |
"My hats off to everyone who teaches, especially in today's foul mouthed, baggy britches, no respect teachers aren't human world." I know it sounds like the title of “a very special Oprah" episode, but you would be surprised at how many of these kids have never received any respect themselves. When you show them a little, they return it by a factor of ten. That isn't always the case, but it's true often enough that I view it as the rule rather than the exception. That's why bad educators are so poisonous. If a teacher or team of teachers can hit the right tone with the right problem student, they can literally "fix them" over the course of one school year. On the other side of the coin, a bad teacher or team of teachers can easily damage a student permanently. Bill (DAMN Kyrocket! You need to rewrite my salary chart! At masters +30 and max years of service we top out at $58,000!) | ||
| Eboos |
Never mind the fact that he is also a Marine. Teaching is one of my fantasy jobs, where I feel like I could do the community some good. The difference is, Bill is actually doing it. | ||
| Kyrocket |
You know these last few education posts are pointing fingers at government, teachers and laws. Let's not forget where a lot of this starts; in the home. My wife tells me horror stories of one of her children that is brought to school with gangster rap music blaring out of the car window. He knows every curse word and is not afraid to use it, and can tell you what pills do what from watching his parents. This kid is in first grade. These parents are the worst kind of irresponsible in my book. Not only is the kid handicapped in some way but he has to endure a home life where the head of household is a pill pushing pot head. What can you do? It's obvious the parents don't nurture at home. There's only so much you can do with the kid at school, if and when he shows up, if mom's not too hung over to bring him. What is there that a body can do to hold parents responsible? Don't even get me started on social services, not in our area anyway. Sorry Xbpete this thread has taken a detour. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
" Let's not forget where a lot of this starts; in the home." Yes indeed, quit having kids. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Bill, I don't know where you live but here In California 40k doesn't get you far. It's $650 a month just to rent a room(my neighbor is renting one out for that much). And look how many years and loans it takes to become a teacher. They don't do it for the money that's for sure, God bless 'em! The only chance we have (as a people) is to make our children smarter and better educated than us. We can't fix the problems in the world, so lets try to give our kids the tools to do it. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Baltimore City Schools couldnt account for 50 million dollars. I dont believe they ever found out where it went. The school system laid off about 600 people at HQ and never missed a beat. It was as if those people never worked there. | ||
| Xbpete |
Bill, For the good teachers, I tip my hat, I have no problem with just compensation for doing a fine job. As stated, my daughter is a teacher. My problem is with overextension and ridiculous programs at the local level... case in point follows. Our local teachers are leaving after 25 years with 2/3 salary and full bennies. My friend Bruce retired last December at the age of 54. His class and subject was taken from Jack when he retired 18 years ago, Jack is being paid 2/3 of his salary with bennies. Now Don takes over the class with full salary and bennies... what would you say to the cost of one teacher in one English class being in excess of 150K for the year? Now we have the district Super., Wayne W. who retired five years ago after 20 years service to the district at 2/3 salary which is in excess of 80K per year. Wayne at the age of 50 went to another district and was paid 90K per year to be their Super. Mind you he still received his pension! Now the local ( my area ) school board is in need of a Super. as Wayne's replacement didn't work out and left the area. Sooooo... they hired Wayne back at full 120K salary.... and he still receives his 80K pension bringing his salary to 200K per year..... Now that Wayne returned, he decided that the bus barn for the district needed replacing, we had just spent 250K for a new roof membrane and upgrades. His 40 million dollar proposal, backed by the board was to tear down the bus barn, put in a new softball and soccer field. The fields would be "closer to the main building so our children would not have to go as far for their sporting events" .... as is, the existing soccer field is 1,100 feet from the outside entrance of the Gym. This would mean having to build a new bus barn. The school board proposed the purchase of 110 acres of horrible wet land at a cost of $550K... from a friend of the super.... he offered the land to the district for 500 per acre and was told to raise the cost per acre to 5000 by the super... The new bus barn would cost 20 million and would be an additional 12 miles per day travel for the fleet of 40 buses ... Also in this expenditure there would be upgrades to the gym cafeteria and lab facilities at the high school.... another 18 million, they had done 35 million dollar overhaul of the H.S. in 2001, brought that project in under budget and naturally spent the excess rather than return it to the taxpayers. The cost to the local taxpayers on this new project would "only be 7 million" with the balance provided by the state of NY, already struggling with a 2 billion dollar deficit per quarter... Now brought before the taxpayers, a vote was taken and we decided NOT to spend this money that none of us really has. This super is outraged that we are losing a great opportunity for our children.. BULL!!!!! The local school board is a black hole, there is never enough money and there never will be. In a time when most are figuring ways to conserve and cut back in frightening economic times, this group and the union backing the teachers wants more and more and more .. My personal school tax is in excess of 5K per year. I have no children in the system, have had no children in the system and never will have.. To the good teachers I have nothing but the utmost respect, to the system of school boards and state programs that blindly spend money that is not there and unions that demand raise after raise and lifelong entitlements I have nothing but contempt... | ||
| Kyrocket |
Xb if you weren't so far away I'd swear you had our school board. How's this for karma. Several years ago our school board decided to unload a school that was old (first part was erected in 1912) without any plans on what would become of it. It stands on what amounts to half a city block and is on the main drag into town. It now looks like this...   A board member who allowed the sale oh so many years ago is now on the city code enforcement board crying out because it looks like crap. And our school taxes are maxed out because like you, we also had to put on a multi-million dollar addition to the current high school so the ball team would have better facilities and maybe we could get the regional finals once every four years. Well, yee-freakin'-haw. Unlike you on the other hand I have two in public school but my taxes aren't enough. I really, honestly don't know if two full weeks have gone by that we haven't been asked to sell candy, wrapping paper, popcorn, candles, shirts or whatever the sale of the week is. | ||
| Xbpete |
Unreal! That building looks like the middle school here! I forgot to mention when this super went to the other district he and that districts board tore down a perfectly usable school built in the early 1950's and erected a monstrous new and exciting school! This district is one of the smallest in the state and serves less than 400 students in K through 12, they cannot even field a football team! The expenditure on the new school was in excess of 65 million dollars! Sure could have consolidated the district with another in our rural area but ... "Our children would be on the bus for over a half an hour each way!!! " Beautiful new school building in a decaying town in the mountains. With this super Wayne... he has a building fetish!!! BTW, I too am a Code Enforcement Officer... | ||
| Kyrocket |
My condolences as code enforcement officer  That school started out as a high school, then a middle school, (I was there in the mid 80's) then it held some board offices until it was sold. It is a huge building, the pics don't do it justice. The bridge that's in the picture connects it with an elementary school which stopped housing kids last year. We both know who'll be boarding it up in a few years...yea me. Our town has about 6500 people in it and is growing and we're also feeling the crunch. We had a woman retire so we're down to five in the office because we're not replacing her. I also have the local ABC and am secretary for two other boards. If you couldn't laugh you'd go nuts. We have, on a upnote, had 26 structures torn down in the 2 1/2 years I've been here. I'm the first one, first day on the job they gave me a code book from 1980 and said, "here you go". We've come a long way but still have a ways to go. |
