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     Captainkirk |
Someone-Anyone! I'm taking applications for the best Bolt-On cam for my basically stock M2. My vote goes with the Andrews N8 so far. If I'm correct, the N4 is identical to the Lightning cam in the X1...and the '99 M2 out-torques the X1 all through the midrange. This is A Good Thing!I like Good Things. So can anybody confirm this, or maybe suggest a cam I don't know about? Also, does anybody have any input about reusing the cam gears to keep down gear noise? As far as I know, RedShift is the only one doing this. Talk to me.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| 1320 |
Don't know all the profiles..but I have had the best luck and power out of the SE536 as far as BOLT IN cams go... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tripp |
are there many bolt-in cams out there? a lot of what i looked at seemed to require a few mods anyway, have you had your heads done? i haven't so i'm kinda un sure of which order i should do things, the bike is plenty fast so i'm in no rush(broke too) but i might enjoy replacing my cams this winter. i haven't checked out much but so far i was thinking of andrews n4 they are definitely bolt- in, apparently as long as the grind is .5 or less it's a bolt-in, is there much difference in the n4 & n8 grind? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tripp |
i think it's lift instead of grind? .55 or less | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Benm2 |
http://www.andrewsproducts.com Description of Andrew's bolt-in cams. I think the N8 has more exhaust duration. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captainkirk |
Basically: N8 N4 timing: 56/28 52/24 duration: 264 256 max lift: .500 .490 TDC lift: .212 .189 RPM Range 2000-6500 2000-6000 Yes, there is more duration. It's a wicked sounding cam at idle and pulls like a mother from about 3K on up. That's why I'm considering it. Just wondered if anyone else had a favorite that I'm missing. This IS considered a "bolt-in by Andrews.And no, I've not had any head work done at this point. I'm considering Nallin Stage I/II IF I should pull the heads, but I'm not planning on it. ck | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigj |
The N2 would be a good choice for an M2 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigblock |
I've been real happy with the N6 Andrews in my 2000 M2. It's been almost 4 years, so I don't remember the specs, but I think it's pretty close to the N8, I think a little more lift, and a tad less exhaust duration, I don't know if I even still have the numbers. Works as well as the SE536 bikes I've seen, and I think you're supposed to do valvesprings with that cam... I would heartily recomend the N6 or 8 over the 4, and every bike I've seen with redshift cams was REAL impressive. If I had the dough to do my motor over, I would go redshift. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigblock |
OK, according to the link that Benm2 left to Andrews, the 6 + 8 have the same specs, but I do seem to remember there was a difference and a reason I went with the 6 in my bike... Oh well, I'll be 40 soon, I guess the memory is the first to go... I know on this website that a lot of the guys don't like the idea of camming-up M2's, but I've been involved with several of these for friends and customers, using redshifts, N6's and the SE536, and everyone has been extremely happy every time(Buells and sportsters) So don't let the naysayers get you down if that's what you really want to do. Keep in mind, of course that to see any benefit in said changes, you will need atleast to have a decent aircleaner, pipe and a carb retune, a dyno tune probably not a bad Idea, but it can be done without the dyno. The 2000 M2 ignition had a topend timing retard, which is best replaced with the Buell "race" ignition if your recamming, but I don't know about the '99... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigj |
The N8 is a N4 intake and an N6 exhaust profile. You'd be well advised not to run a cam that moves your power range up. You don't wanna be running that motor above 5 grand for any length of time. The N2 bleeds off a little compression down low, where the motor needs it.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Fullpower |
i run N6 in sportster. 264 duration both intake and exhaust. top gear is ok down to 2500 rpm, starts to pull pretty good at 3500, and then you better be hangin on real good at 4500 rpm , things start getting wild from there till rev limiter. about 90 degrees of overlap with this cam, so you want plenty of compression for it to work well. my mechanical ratio is 11.5 to one, and cranking pressure is 205 psi cold. i tried the N2 in this motor, but cranking pressure was 240 psi, too high for gasoline. i ran it around on methanol for a while, but the 3 gallon tank would not go far. also traction was a big issue with the methanol motor. would not wheelie at all, just got out of control wheel spin in first, second and third gears. N6 cams are better for me, because the reduced low speed torque makes it easier to get the bike rolling without wheel spin. also runs ok on the 90 octane crap we can get here. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Phat_j |
i know this is the wrong thread for this, but its close..... i have a set of cams for sale on ebay, check em out http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=35572 &item=2445962146 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spiderman |
LOL you registered just for that didn't ya J  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tripp |
spidey what cams does mj sport? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captainkirk |
Bigblock et al; According to my Andrews download, N6 and N8 have EXACTLY the same specs...even down to the P/N. Wonder if it's a typo? Application guide says to go with springs, but NOT the N8. Hmmmmmm. BigJ- 'splain to me...the N2 has LESS lift than the stock M2 cam, according to my Andrews DL. This seems like a step in the wrong direction, no? (although duration is certainly longer and timing is changed from 41/02 to 46/18.) RPM range is 2000-6000, same as N4.What I'm looking for is a cam profile that'll give me GOBS of torque in the low/midrange area. Fullpower says he had to run methanol...this is not a Good Thing.  There are no methanol pumps at the Citgo. Actually, I've been told the stock sporty cam is not all that bad. Somebody tell me they installed a cam that totally SUCKS so I'll know what NOT to install, OK? Bear in mind that future mods will include Forcewinder, HSR42, either M2 race exhaust or D&D slip on and race ECM. ck | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spiderman |
X1 Cams. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigj |
Cap'n, Anything other than the N2 will change your powerband significantly. The N2 will PROBABLY get rid of the M2's tendency to knock under full load in the bottom RPM ranges.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tripp |
well, so far i'm more confused than b4, lol. it seems that the n4 is popular with little or no mods, the se536 is popular if u have at least a race ignition, filter and exhaust, and if you have the whole enchilada mods the redshift 585 is the ticket. spidey threw me for a loop with the x1 cams, how do those compare with the ones we've been talking about? and i'm still a little concerned about the bolt-in(sounds easy) and whats involved in the non bolt-in(or does that mean it's necessary to have the heads done etc). ima call nrhs and ask about it, i have everything done besides the heads and a fatter carb, which i hope to have done by this time next year(i hope!) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| 1320 |
The Redshift 585 is a great cam...BUT it is by no means a BOLT IN...minimum work will involve clearancing the lifter galleys in the cam chest and some clearancing in the rocker boxes...and I believe the Spidermans X1 comment was in reference to the previous question of what cam not to install?? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Phat_j |
naw spidy, i registered when i was talkin to jim about sideplates... you know the saga there... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captainkirk |
BigJ- Funny you mentioned knocking... I experienced this problem the first season I had the bike. Everyone at Buell told me that M2's don't knock unless there's 1)a fuel octane problem,2)an induction leak or 3)a bad ecm advance curve. Not! My M2 had 2 problems; 1) a broken wire inside the potting compound of the VOES,and 2)a serious need for a Thunderslide kit. While installing the T-slide, I happened to notice the VOES. Otherwise I'd never have seen it. It's an easy fix; dig out the potting and recrimp or replace the spade terminal (a slip-on connection at the switch). I strongly recommend anybody having this problem to check out their VOES. Hold the body of the switch and lightly tug on the wires.I said lightly!  Oh yeah... the Thunderslide was worth every penny. What a difference! Tripp; A bolt-in means there is no engine modification required, e.g. springs, headwork, carb, exhaust...although all of the above will certainly make the cam perform better. Spider; I'm assuming you are telling me the X1 (A.K.A. N4) cams suck? Yes? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spiderman |
NO I was answering tripp's question. I love the cams. There Mild an I like em' and it depends on what you are doin or plan on doin. IE 1250 88 incher etc. I have a mild motor, so i went with a mild cam. If I go any higher I would be goin with 585 Redlines and the 1250 kit. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bigj |
Cap'n, Of all the tuber Buells, an M2 is the most likely to have detonation.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captainkirk |
Bigj- is that due to the cams,carb or ecm curve?ck | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aaron |
I'd advise that you look first at the intake close point. It's the most influential event by far and it's closely tied to both the compression ratio and the rpm range. The intake valve closes as the piston is on it's way up on the compression stroke, and it's so critical because it determines the point at which you stop trying to fill the cylinder and start compressing the charge. Early intake close points use more of the compression stroke to compress the charge. So they're good for maximizing compression in motors with low compression ratios. But at higher rpm, where the intake charge has more inertia, an early intake close point will slam the door while the cylinder is still filling. Late intake close points will help the cylinder fill at high rpm where the fuel charge has more inertia. But a late close point will give up compression at low rpm because the piston will push back some of charge before the cylinder is sealed. So it needs a higher compression ratio to compensate. Some intake close points of popular cams, spec'ed after bottom dead center (ABDC) at .053 lift or thereabouts:
The cams toward the top of that chart are for moderate compression ratios and more bottom end power. The cams toward the bottom of the chart need more compression and are designed for more rpm. Personally, I'd say for a 10:1 engine you oughta stay in the low 40's to low 50's range. My M2 has 11:1 but it also runs a grind with a 58 degree intake close event. "Bolt-in" means you should be able to install it without worrying about clearances in the cam box, anti-rotation pin clearance, adjustable pushrods, roller rockers, guide seal to retainer clearance, coil bind clearance, valve to valve clearance, valve to piston clearance, or seat pressure. In other words it oughta go right in to an otherwise stock motor. You're really limiting yourself with a bolt-in, you just can't put much cam in one of these things without at least changing the springs, and the N4/SE bolt-in is about as good as it gets. Stock springs only allow about .500 of travel while still retaining reasonable coil bind clearance, and they generally only have 120-130lbs on the seat, which means they can't control the valvetrain at a whole lot of rpm and/or a very aggressive ramp rate. There's a whole helluva lot more to this subject, we're only just scratching the surface, but intake close point is the most important thing. Last comment: people always seem to look for cam miracles. It's just one component, and it's gotta be matched to the others. I've seen many times when more cam did nothing for a motor or actually made it go backwards. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ferris |
hey Aaron!  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Wow, that was worthy of a Kevin Cameron column. Where do my CM580's fit in that table? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
BTW Captain, I love my CM580's. Big low end and mid-range. You will want adjustable pushrods and beefier springs though. So I guess they are not what you would call "bolt-in." | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captainkirk |
Thanks, Aaron! Too much info to read off the screen, had to print it for future referencing on those cold winter nights. BTW,what's your opinion of the stock M2 cams? I mean, after you start adding toys (bolt-on)? When you wrote last time you mentioned exhaust and cams as the first things to go after. I'm in the process of picking up the Buell race pipe and cams would be the next logical step...unless you think for a bolt-on type motor they're not necessary. And Blake, I'm ignorant-who makes your cam and what are the specs? Thanks for the input, guys. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aaron |
Damn, I just read that drivel again, and I can't believe how poorly I worded it. Glad this is on the quick board and will go away someday. At the risk of screwing up again ... the way to look at it is that the optimum point to close the intake valve, to maximize cylinder fill, depends on the inertia of the incoming charge, and rpm has a big effect on that inertia (as do some other things), so in general, you want to close it earlier for low rpm power and later for high rpm power. But the intake close point also has a big effect on compression, and therefore you have to match your compression ratio to it. Early intake close points need low compression ratios else they'll cause detonation, and likewise, late intake close points need high compression ratios else they'll make no power. Blake, the timing on that grind is a Carl's secret, something about being concerned it'll be copied, which is really silly IMO because it ain't that hard to make the measurement. Captain, the D grind is really a 9:1 grind IMO. Buell is using it with a 10:1 CR which of course makes for a torquey bike. But like bigj said, it also pushes the pinging envelope, at least in the mass production environment. The other thing about the grind is that it has very little overlap, which limits the exhaust system's opportunity to help or hurt the intake flow. That's great if you have a crappy exhaust system, but if you have a good exhaust it's leaving a bunch of power on the table. So in summary I'd say it's a fine grind for a 9:1 Sportster that doesn't have to turn many rpm and comes with a crappy exhaust, which not coincidentally, is exactly what it was designed for. For a performance application you can do much better. Here, let me find an example ... these are real world results:  Chad's M2 has the stock cams. When he went from a stock header + slip-on to the Force full system, he saw little change. The cams simply are not letting the exhaust influence the fill that much, because they have so little overlap.  Justin's M2 has the SE bolt-ins, which have substantially more overlap than the D cams. When Justin went from the stock header + slip-on to the Force full system, it made a huge difference. edited by Aaron on December 07, 2003 |
