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Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 01:56 am: | 
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"When I roll my hips I can steer my bike with my bum."
The MSF guy told me that was not the best technique. So I decided to pay more attention to what he was telling me...
...uhh, what was he telling me?
This is another countersteering thread isn't it?
Simple answer for me was that even though my head didn't get it - physics did, so as long as I didn't try to fight it we'd get along just fine.
BOO, take up these ridercoach's (MSFers) on their offers and let them take you to a parking lot for some skill practices, it'll do wonders for you (plus they can explain in detail techniques that tend to become muddled in the semantics when you try to write it down.)
-Mike |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 06:37 am: |
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quote:and, I'll repeat:
Foot roll, knee angulation and hip angulation.
Entirely separate from 'body lean'.
If you're not touching the handlebars, any movement of your body that results in steering the bike is simply shifting your weight around- the functional equivalent of body lean.
Claiming that a particular set of body movements can steer the bike with something other than weight distribution is the equivalent of claiming to lift yourself by your own bootstraps. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 09:58 am: |
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As much fun as it is to argue, I tried it this morning.
Tramp is mostly right in theory. I was able to take both of these turns:
At probably 50 MPH using nothing but lean (hands not touching the handle bars) on my 05 XB9SX.
That being said, it wasn't a graceful "lean roll" type deal, it was more of a "grip tank with knee death grip, get weight out for direction of turn, jerk body to get the bike to lean into the turn, then carry weight to the outside to maintain turn".
It took quite a jerk to initiate the turn, but once started, it was pretty easy to hold, particularly as you are bleeding speed quickly as your hands aren't touching the throttle.
Other bikes with less tendency to "auto return" center then my XB9SX (most Japanese sportbikes and standards) would have been even easier.
So its very doable on even my XB9, and would probably be fairly easy on other bikes.
It also (again, to Tramps point) was perfectly natural. It wasn't much different then what I do when I *am* holding the bars. The bars just make the whole process easier and smoother.
I think the value in it (which is perhaps what Tramp is getting at) is the same as something I discovered Skiing... you want your center of gravity to be leading the action you are about to take, not trailing it. So if you want to turn, get your center of gravity hanging out and ready to pull the right way, then at the moment you want to carve the turn just *then* use the bars to snap the bike (or skis to snap the rest of your body) right into the perfect place to carve the turn.
The point being that you can make bar / ski adjustments quickly and easily, but moving your center of gravity takes a bit more planning and effort. So do the center of gravity adjustment first, then use the contorls to match.
Basically, you "push yourself off the right side of the bike, then push right to steer right, which snaps the bike into the correct place under you to catch your body again"....
It was fun, by the way... |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:29 pm: |
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quote:I think the value in it (which is perhaps what Tramp is getting at) is the same as something I discovered Skiing... you want your center of gravity to be leading the action you are about to take, not trailing it. So if you want to turn, get your center of gravity hanging out and ready to pull the right way, then at the moment you want to carve the turn just *then* use the bars to snap the bike (or skis to snap the rest of your body) right into the perfect place to carve the turn.
I think that's the key to Tramp's steering technique- moving your center of gravity.
I frequently remove my hands from the bars and continue to steer the motorcycle with nothing more than body positioning. When doing so I find it much easier to just slide my hips from one side to another compared to leaning my upper body. However, all I'm doing is shifting my body weight from one place to another to initiate lean--functionally the same as body lean (unless you play semantics and claim that "body lean" refers to some specific part of the body). The motorcycle can certainly be steered that way, but it's considerably slower and less precise than the direct method of countersteering via the handlebars |
B00stzx3
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 02:15 pm: |
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Wow. Thank yall for the response! I'm gonna save this to desktop and read it after work. Yall know some crazy physics stuff. Thanks! |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 05:28 pm: |
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With practice it becomes easier and easier- again, this is one of those things my dad made us practice, whether we wanted to or not. Being as he joined the realm of departed
in '73, I've had ample time to practice this.
Reep- your skiing analogy answers much of it.
Both of my folks were Ski School directors, and we sibling grew up training through the ranks, in both practice and theory.
The analogue presenting between the two sports is goddam eerie.
When I went for my Swiss certification (Snow Sports) after retiring from alpine snowboard racing, it was largely theoretical (classtime @ Grenoble) and bolstered a curriculum that the enthusiastic street rider couldn't possibly avoid cross-application of.
Anyone who skis and board with me will tell you I appear identical, coming down a pistefrom a minor distance, in both disciplines.
The ahndful of friends with whom I've shared all 3 activities say the same about all 3.
It's this condensation and purgative process of shitcanning extraneous
movement that defines one's level of truly integrated carving- be it on a board, skis, deck, bicycle or motorcycle.
gravity becomes the final force of differentiation betwixt two denominating groups.
 }
(Message edited by tramp on November 14, 2008) |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 05:43 pm: |
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can you envision a sportbike underneath the skier pictured below?:
"Look, Ma- NO Handlebars..."
ANY sportbike rider can improve MUCH more by learning to ride a simple bicycle without using hands, (if not a Unicycle) than from sitting around reading sportriding technique books...
(Message edited by tramp on November 14, 2008) |
Dobr24
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:53 am: |
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Tramp,
I ski often. I can tell you that to turn you apply pressure on the inside edge of the uphill ski (the skier above would be applying huge amounts of force on the lower ski). So to turn right in skiing you apply pressure on the right ski and the left ski pretty much just trails around. Sounds just like pushing on the inside bar? If you just lean in skiing you fall over.
Oh, and in response to your comment that a sportbike rider can learn more from riding a bike without hands than from reading a book on the subject. Not gonna happen. Reading a book about a subject that pertains precisely to the subject at hand and performing an exercise that is barely related cannot even be compared. Apples and oranges. How about you come to March Badness and you follow me over RR HWY. I'll ride normally and you ride no handed, if you beat me I'll ride the rest of the weekend in the pink panties!
(Message edited by dobr24 on November 15, 2008) |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:17 am: |
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Dobr- your remarks about how to turn a ski are ca. 1985.
Skiing with near-equal pressure on both skis has been the order of the day for high-end skiing for over a decade, now.
Kind of kills the hand-pushing misanalogy.
I'm pleased for you that you ski often, but you are neither a coach, instructor nor a competitor.
'I never siad I'd beat other people who have their hands on the bars when I ride with none- I said that i will negotiate any twisties (as most good riders will) with no hands, thus removing the
necessity of bar-pushing from the equation. |
Dobr24
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:50 am: |
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Tramp you said, "Don't allow your own inability to perform this maneuver, coupled with cited literature,
preclude the experiential veracity of those of us who can, and have, in fact, maneuvered trhough twisties at a good rate of speed without our hands anywhere near the bars."
You then said, "'I never siad I'd beat other people who have their hands on the bars when I ride with none- I said that i will negotiate any twisties (as most good riders will) with no hands, thus removing the
necessity of bar-pushing from the equation." So what you are in fact saying is that you can do a "good rate", utilizing your technique. I am curious, what is a good rate?
I believe the original poster was asking about how the effect of pushing the inside bar and upon rereading your original post I found this, "Be VERY careful about trendy over-exertion of counter-steer-
In an effective MC turn, you should start by rolling your outside foot inward, effecting an inside knee inward pressure, followed by concentric hip pressure, and counter-rotation o he shoulders to cause a counter-steer effect at the bars". I see that you are counter rotating your shoulder which would cause you to push on the inside handle grip unless you bend your inside elbow more while doing this which would negate the effect of the counter rotation. It sounds to me that you are basically doing what everyone else on her has suggested only you added that you use pressure from the outside knee also. No problem there it will help overall control. Am I right or wrong? So why the argument?
Also I think you should apply for a job at the Vail Ski School, My instructor there, an ex professional slalom racer named Franz Fuchberger would disagree with you about your turning technique, and below is his listing of accomplishments, I think he knows what he is doing.
* 3 - time World Synchronized Demo Ski Team Champion / Team Vail
* 10 - time Vail/Beaver Creek Ski School Overall Champion SG/GS/SL
* 25 - time Powder 8 Champion 17 - top three finishes in Powder 8 competitions
* 1991 - US Ski Instructor Champion GS, Individual and with Team Vail
* 1996 - Overall Vail Town Champion in SG/GS/SL
* 1997 - Number One Ranked Nastar Racer in the US (www.nastar.com )
* 1997 - WORLD POWDER 8 Champion with Hayden Scott.
* 1998 - World Alpine Synchronized Skiing Champion / Team Vail-Snowell
* 1998 - Ski Instructor of the Year
* 1998 - WORLD POWDER 8 Champion with Hayden Scott.
* 1999 - Overall Vail Town Champion in SG/GS/SL
* 1999 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 1999 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2000 - Synchro Ski World Championship Victory Samnaun/Switzerland
* 2000 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2000 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2000 - US Powder 8 Series Champion with ERIC ARCHER
* 2001 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2001 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2001 - US Powder 8 Series Champion with ERIC ARCHER
* 2001 - World Powder 8 Champion with ERIC ARCHER
* 2002 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2002 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2002 - World Powder 8 Masters and Overall Champion with partner PEPI NEUBAUER
* 2002 - Runner up to Pepi Neubauer "DUKE CUP" - Vail/CO
* 2003 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2003 - Vail Ski School Overall Champion SG/GS/SL
* 2003 - World Powder 8 Masters Champion
* 2003 - Runner up to Pepi Neubauer "DUKE CUP" - Vail/CO
* 2003 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2004 - Runner up to Pepi Neubauer "DUKE CUP" - Vail/CO
* 2004 - "Heli Schaller Challenge Cup" Champion - Winterpark/CO
* 2004 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2004 - Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2004 - World Powder 8 Masters Champion
* 2005 - Runner up to Pepi Neubauer "DUKE CUP" - Vail/CO
* 2005 - Vail Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2005 - Vail Town Race Series Individual Overall Champion
* 2005- Beaver Creek Town Race Series Champion ( Team SnowellUSA.com )
* 2005 - Vail Ski School Overall Champion SG/GS/SL
* 2005 - Rocky Mountain Masters -- ELITE CLASS Champion
* 2005 - 2nd Place World Powder 8 Masters Championships
* 2005 - National Masters Downhill Champion - Overall
* 2005 - 1st Place PRO-AM / Team Summit Fundraiser Giant Slalom |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |
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I think if you locked the throttle you would find it much more difficult to body steer.
I've tried.
I've found that the best results are obtained while trying to twist the rear of the motorcycle. This is easier the further forward the pegs are to a certain extent (or the further forward you can put your feet anyhow).
Imagine the bike sitting upright off the kickstand.
Push towards the right at the lowest, furthest forward point you can while pulling to the left at the seat.
While on the bike you can get this done to a certain degree by weighting the outside peg much like a slalom skier does the outside ski (in the old days apparently  ).
I think I first heard the ski vs. motorcycle analogy from Kieth Code or Lee Parks.
Tramp is not incorrect... But of course it can't be used exclusively. I don't think he meant it that way. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 12:40 pm: |
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Dobr-
Just so you're clear- you should check with your pal Franz, first, re: percentage of pressure per ski in this day and age.
Vail is not a difficult school at which to get an instructing job- When I was a SS staff trainer at Keystone/A-Basin in the 1980s, I had many Vail instructors visit us, as we visited them.
In what world systems was your vail instructor (was he ever a staff trainer or worldcup coach/competitor? I was. I trained professional instructors for decades, raced worldcup alpine 'boarding and then coached professionally, also weltcup, for years after that) certified?
We can play the pissing game all day, but you're basing your misstatements on having known someone who had some limited LOCAL accomplishments in his career, without citing his direct input on this.
Either way, he may have worked for me at some point in his career, and I may have trained him, although that's unlikely, as my professional time in the rockies was limited...I far prefer cal. and Europe.
The instructors I've had, growing up, and the coaches under whom I've trained, far and away outstrip the acumen of your vail buddy.
I'm certified in 5 different national ski teaching systems, which,, in itself, is a rare accomplishment.
I don't say this as a brag, as it's only something I was born into, having had a father who was also a multi-nationally certified pro racer and ski school director paving the way for me. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
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M1combat said:
"
Tramp is not incorrect... But of course it can't be used exclusively. I don't think he meant it that way."
You are correct, sir. |
Johnnylunchbox
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 01:33 pm: |
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Tramp, correct me if I am wrong, but the practice of unequal ski weighting, was because of the tendency to use stiffer longer boards back in the day right? The stiff straight ski needed more force to arc properly and carve, whereas to newer shaplier skis are pre-arced in a sense. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 02:42 pm: |
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Yes, however:
bear in mind that "Reuels" have been
executed since the late 1920s.
Also, in racing, coaching tended toward more evenly weighted ("weight" and "pressure" are two divergent forces in most sports) skis by the late 1980s, as modern ski technique steered (no pun intended) away from the "A-Framed" Stenmark turn.
Essentially, the concept of either pressuring or wighting one ski near-exclusively in a given turn came about as a way to 'wedge', however subtly, and "push the elevator button" (ski already pointing in direction of intended turn) to trun.
As flex patters became both diverse and forgiving, it was found that one could vary one's ski radius by flexing the ski What then occurs, even on straight skis, is the entire ski arcs to create , dynamically (on edge) , what a modern "shaped" ski gives us in static repose.
Once you've really mastered such technique on shaped skis, it becomes head-slappingly simple on your old straight boards, as well, as long as they''re forgiving enough to arc without relying ion inertia.
You see, even in modern racing, straighter sidecuts are often the rule of the day due to the fact that straighter edges will 'chatter' FAR less in ruts, unlike shaped skis creating a knee-numbing oscillation in a rutted course.
Forget the boards you see racers holding on the podium, those are handed to them by the tech reps for show.
REALLY interesting side note:
the "shaped ski" concept came about as a result of Alpine (meaning racing, primarily) snowboard manufacture- techs noted that alpine boarders could carve beautiful slalom turns on a single plane (thereby without stepping or weighting/pressuring an "inside edge of an outside ski", which, of course, snowboards simply don't HAVE, and the manufacturers decided to ape the deep sidecuts of our race boards. |
Wtcardr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 05:59 pm: |
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Do a google search nobsbike and then tell me how that works |
Tramp
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 06:28 pm: |
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Countersteer needn't be an active application, it occurs as a reaction to centripetal forces in a plane that's articulated on the vertical axis.
You can "push" the bars all you like, to waste energy on all your turns and leapfrog your otherwise constant pressure that makes you carve, or you can allow countersteer to passively occur as a result of your lateral (in any given turn radius)input from your foot up to your knee, with (according to specific radius) hip angulation and/or CM shifting |
Wtcardr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 08:07 pm: |
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Check out Keith Codes no bs bike. Even a professional road racer takes the whole paddock at Laguna Seca to make a motorcycle go in a circle with no counter-steering. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:27 pm: |
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Am I the only one that understands what Tramp is sayin'?
I disagree in one respect though...
If you want to have a high roll rate you do indeed need to use some muscles. Especially at high speeds.
I think what Tramp is saying is that it's best to use the least amount of muscles possible and still achieve the desired result.
Kinda like the winner isn't the fastest guy on the track... He's the slowest guy that happened to still finish first. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:16 pm: |
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Lean....
If god wants the bike to turn, it will turn. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:00 am: |
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The "No-BS" motorcycle doesn't allow for passive 'posting' against either bar, which is not the same as 'pushing'
Further- a motorcycle's steering head radius and wheelbase dictate to what degree/speed/turn radius one might steer it without touching the handlebars.
(Think about trying to execute a U-turn in one lane with a late-80s Katanah 750, or a BMW K1)
My S2t was/is very difficult to steer through twisties without using hands (nearly impossible), while my best friend's M2 is a snap, due to the steering blocks built into my S2's frame, and the thicker inverted forks...which I replaced with M2 forks- helped a tiny bit.
Many BMW airheads (esp. /5-/7) have OT-like steering radii, and are excellent machines to ride hands-free through twisties, esp. w/Throttlemeister throttle locks.
Were Mr. Code's "no-BS" machine one with an open steering radius, he'd find his experiment would yield far different results.
And, again, it proves NOTHING regarding push/pull input on handlebars, as, again, for those of us who understand the smooth science of steering from 'the feet up', countersteer becomes, often, a passive 'posting' against either handlebar side, as opposed to an active "pushing" of either.
Hope this helps some of the bookworm champions, here. |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 06:25 am: |
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quote:The "No-BS" motorcycle doesn't allow for passive 'posting' against either bar, which is not the same as 'pushing'
What is the difference? Why does it matter if the bike is steered by hip movement and not steering input?
quote:Were Mr. Code's "no-BS" machine one with an open steering radius, he'd find his experiment would yield far different results.
What is an open steering radius? Are you saying that some motorcycles are steered with the hip and some require bar input? |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 09:34 am: |
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No- Motorcycle steering head radii vary wildly, as do wheelbase lengths.
each affect effective steering radius, dramatically.
As to your first question, posting engenders passive 'stopping' of the front end's natural tendency to break concentrically into the turn
When this is a side effect of simple inclination, the stopping of same allows for a fixed radius turn...or varying according to the rider's allowable resistance.
In the post above, "Spike", you're making the claim that "hip movement" is "not steering input"
You're creating a semantic argument with yourself, as the hip angulation and hip rotation effects active steering as do other forces. } |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 12:34 pm: |
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quote:No- Motorcycle steering head radii vary wildly, as do wheelbase lengths.
each affect effective steering radius, dramatically.
I'm aware of that. The fact remains that on nearly every motorcycle in the world a shove to the bars will lean the motorcycle. Hanging off the side of the bike will lean the motorcycle as well, just not as quickly. Your claim was that the "no-BS" bike experiment would yield different results if it were on a different motorcycle. I agree that the results would vary in degree, but it would still remain woefully ineffective to steer the bike without handlebars when compared to steering the bike with handlebars.
quote:In the post above, "Spike", you're making the claim that "hip movement" is "not steering input"
You're creating a semantic argument with yourself, as the hip angulation and hip rotation effects active steering as do other forces.
No semantics to it. Steering input to the motorcycle can be broken down into two categories- inputs to the handlebars (counter steering) and shifting weight around (body lean, hip angle, standing on the passenger seat doing the macarena, etc.). One is dramatically more effective than the other.
quote:As to your first question, posting engenders passive 'stopping' of the front end's natural tendency to break concentrically into the turn
When this is a side effect of simple inclination, the stopping of same allows for a fixed radius turn...or varying according to the rider's allowable resistance.
Who's playing semantics now? Any input to the bars resulting in steering the front tire's contact patch outside of it's natural course of travel falls into the category of counter steering regardless of whether you call it posting or pushing. If you're saying that your hip angulation technique is more effective when you apply input to the bars you're proving my point.
Perhaps we should just call it counter posting? |
Metalstorm
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 01:18 am: |
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To get back to the subject,
It is my belief that new riders should learn counter steering with the bars.
Despite the fact that you can achieve steering inputs with the body, I've seen a couple new riders crash due to lack of counter steering practice.
They'll come into a corner too hot (say for example, a right turn) and they'll panic.
They quickly push the bars to the right (pushing left, pulling right) trying to turn the bike while leaning to the right and they end up going straight.
The last time it happened was a few years ago. Exact scenario. A guy tried to turn his bike like a car and went straight off the bank and into Tomalas Bay where he drowned.
So whether you choose to steer with the bars or not, I think it is worth learning and perfecting just for the sake of preventing a possible fatal error. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:50 pm: |
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Front Brake
(lights fuse, throws into room, slams door) |
Swordsman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:40 pm: |
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LOL! Glad I wasn't drinking anything! 
~SM |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:49 pm: |
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I wiggle my butt when I ride.
I'm not sure but it feels like I'm steering with my scrotum.
Sunny says I'm riding like a dick. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:45 pm: |
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Countersteering works. I can sit like a lump of clay on the seat & with 2 fingers countersteer any bike ( that I've ever ridden, including mid-bar recumbent bicycles ) through a set of twisties in complete control. I sometimes do just that to mess with Ninja riders that are gung ho with the "drag a knee weight transfer" "technique" as they try & copy what they SEE on tv at the races. My Cyclone has enough built in lean angle that I can usually out turn a badly driven sportbike with a squid hanging off like a cowboy picking up a hat in a movie western.
That said..... countersteering is the heart of the underlying physics of turning a bike. It's not THE technique for fast handling, since that means a combination of balance, weight shift to reduce the lean angle of the bike,throttle control, & countersteering.....
It's snowing here, so I'll have to try Tramp's way this spring. He IS countersteering, in combination with smooth ( you do mean smooth, right?? ) weight shift & balance control. If I understand him.
Weight shift ALONE ( no hands ) can indeed turn a bike, by using the caster/camber/steering angle of the bike to "flop" the front wheel etc. I myself, suck at it.
BY the way the real reason...IMHO.... to hang off is to increase the possible lean angle of a bike before hard bits drag. I'm NOT saying that shifting weight or holding a balanced position off centerline in a turn is BS. I will say that if a bike has excessive friction in the steering system, it won't "flop" & steer without countersteering. Examples include recumbent bikes with the bars under the butt (mid steer layback bicycles ) & some of the hub steer bikes like the Bimota Tesi.
(Message edited by aesquire on November 20, 2008) |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:00 pm: |
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I only ever make hip movements.
Geek is so yesterday. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:08 pm: |
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HEY!
You say GEEK like that's a BAD thing!? |
Babired
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:14 am: |
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Boo I don't know if anybody has posted this yet but it goes along with the old "loose ball on a car dashboard"
Check this U-Tube spot I found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc |
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