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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

back story:

i brought my wheels off my '06 cityx to the dealer in july to have new tires put on and they peeled the powder coat off the wheels with their machine. the agreed to strip and have them recoated.

the questions:

i dropped of the wheels today for the powder to be done. they will now have to disassemble the wheels(rotors, spocket, bearings) and i'm very curious as to whether they will just use the old stuff or replace(bearings and rotor hardware) with new. the wheels have 8K on them and all seems well, but i know it is not recommended to reuse the front rotor hardware and not sure about the bearings. what do you think?
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Teeps
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The bearings SHOULD be replaced for sure. To determine if the bolts for the rotors and pulley need replacing, consult the service manual.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Re-PCing these rims is a bad idea- a second baking really fatigues the alloys badly., plus it will critically render any bearing lubes completely.

You might consider, being as this was a dealer issue, request complete wheel R&R, which should be a simple W-RO.

Worst case, if the dealer gets cute: Just as to have them shot with a high-hardener spray. Avoid a second Powder coat on lightweight alloy: bad plan.

factory dealer damaged unit, factory should replace component, no questions asked of customer
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Re-PCing these rims is a bad idea- a second baking really fatigues the alloys badly.

is this true? not that i'm doubting you Tramp, i've just never heard anyone question a recoat on the basis of fatigue. additional info would be much appreciated.
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Nillaice
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i had an issue with the dealer and my tires. they were in the wrong, but i got no-where, after much to-do about it.

good luck with yours
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

These alloy rims are painstakingly tempered after forming-

Reheating to 350 (+ or -) for 15-30 minutes saps much of the critical temper from the soft alloy.

Are you sure the rim was actually powered to begin with?
Many alloys are treated with simple high-build paints, which have the same chemical makeup as most powders, anyway.

350o F can produce a rim that bends and 'dents' far more easily than stock finish would allow it to.
Much of the attendant hype surrounding powdercoating is based in sensationalism and marketing. Its great for lawn furniture that is in contact with stone and masonry based flooring, but for motorcycle components, it's not necessarily all that.
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i was under the impression that the XB wheels were powder coated, but not positive. i am supposed to meet with the coater the dealer uses on monday to finalize the new color. till then i'm gonna do a little research on this. thanks for the info Tramp.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You bet- I would advise you check with Buell re: original finish, and consider a nice custom colour paint job, instead.
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i have posted for Court, i'm hoping he might be able to get me a "factory" answer as to whether it is safe to do this. unfortunately i don't trust the dealer to be honest with me.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I found this re: XB rims:

XB Wheels - Translucent Amber
G0110.02A8AYBR Front $375.00
G0309.02A8AYBR Rear $375.00
XB Wheels - Translucent Amber

Complex, premium powder coat process.

Unbelievable look!

Fits '03-later XB models (except XB12X).
Prices are MSRP US$. All products may not be available in all markets.
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

ahh complex.....

hey if i can get a definative answer from someone other than the dealer that its safe to reheat the wheels no prob., but if it isn't safe then i figure my dealer either owes me new wheels or a credit for the value.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

..or a nice new paintjob.
Seriously, though- reheating those alloys is bad news.
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

yeah i've just spent a few on some sites and it does not sound like a good idea at all. the general consensus is not that it will cause them to fail immediately but reheat will cause them to fail much earlier. thanks again for throwing up the flag and all the info.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

reheated alloys are fine if you avoid railroad tracks, potholes and high speeds and cornering.
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Just_ziptab
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

How in the hell did they damage the wheels in the first place? Surely they have dealt with colored or polished wheels before you came by...............or any wheel for that matter. Sure accidents happen, but this sounds more like untrained personnel in the tire dept.
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Tramp
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

same thing happened to me in '99 with my S2 at a HD/Buell dealership.
tech services chain is as strong as its weakest link
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Slaughter
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Seriously - give Pete at Grandstand a note and ask. Not only is he a Bueller, he DOES powdercoating. Ask somebody who DOES this for a living:

http://www.grandstanddesigns.com/
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Ustorque
Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

thanks Slaughter, i shot pete an email to get his opinion on this.
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Tramp
Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

UStorque- As an alumnus of BMW-NA motorcycle group technical services, who also managed the custom paint/collision center for west coast BMW service, I can contribute to conversations regarding alloy wheels and baking at 350 o (F) (give or take 20 o).
Further, being as mine and my department's own bottom line was unaffected by the mode of finish chosen for customer rim repair, and given my own training hours devoted to correct, safe alloy treatments, I think you may find me to be a less biased contributor to said discussions.

Please note that "Grandstands Designs" does not offer conventional, low temp painting services, and therefore might have a definitive bias toward powder coating.


(Message edited by tramp on November 02, 2008)
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Ustorque
Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

point taken Tramp and i do value your input, you have raised a lot of concern for me and the safety of my bike. i'm gonna put the recoat on hold until i can gather enough info to make sure whatever gets done with my wheels does not effect the integrity of the alloy, whether it's a recoat, paint, or new wheels all together. i'm going to contact buell CS tomorrow to see what their opinion is and see if i can get in contact with the manufacturer of the wheels themselves.

the info i was able to find last night all pointed to alloy composition and oven temp as the important factors in the equation. it would seem that a recoat is possible and safe but it needs to be done at a much lower temp than normal to maintain the strength of the wheels. this is where it gets tricky as i have zero faith and trust in my dealer to make sure that it gets done properly.
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Tramp
Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Further, there's a point where low-temp powder becomes a less aesthetically-attractive and/or less durable finish than a good, high-quality enamel. with high hardener content.
Plus, "low temp" powder still exceeds, by necessity, 200o (F), which saps the temper from your rims, as well.

Why take chances when a cold application of good enamel will both look much nicer than ANY powder, and demonstrate higher durability than many, and will certainly stress your alloy FAR less.
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Ustorque
Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

kinda wish Court would get in on this sure would value his opinion.
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Tramp
Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Time to charge up the ol' Bat-signal over Queens County
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Slaughter
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 07:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Summpin to think about - the CAST alloys are FAR MORE Tolerant to re-heating than wrought or plate just due to the basic processes used to produce the parts. HOWEVER you can't just have the powdercoating done without regard to time/temperature.

Good discussion (yeah, I'm a materials geek so I hang out on weird BBS's): http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=151053& page=10
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Spiderman
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

So i wonder what is going to cost more and look better

Pull bearings, strip wheel, buy new bearings, powder coat, re assemble wheel

or

Buy factory OEM wheels and install????
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Tramp
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

...and given the fact that ambient temp painting poses NO risk to alloy temper, and further results in a more attractive finish
(esp. 2-3 parts w/clear coat) and can be nearly as durable as any powder (and, lets face it- it's only during tire-changes that durability becomes an issue- and. powder , at this point, can be as easily compromised), why would anyone opt for powder for alloy rims?}
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Ustorque
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

update:

I placed a call to Buell C.S. this morning to get their opinion on the recoat and here was the answer i recieved from the technician:

Buell XB cast aluminum wheels would have no problem withstanding dozens of standard temp powdercoating cycles with no effect on the integrity of the wheels. go for it.
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Tramp
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Great news- It's officially on them, now.
and they don't have to sweat replacing your current rims)
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Oldog
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buell XB cast aluminum wheels would have no problem withstanding dozens of standard temp powdercoating cycles with no effect on the integrity of the wheels.

I'm with Tramp on the idea of not being comfortable about re heating the wheels
its how you soften sheet billit (6061) for bending, I would be willing to bet that the heat cycle has a effect on the wheel, weather its hardening or softnening, removing the wheel bearing will shorten the life of the wheel unless heat is used and the original bearings are scrapped.

when in doubt err on the side of caution.

One last thought I PC'ed the PM wheels on my X1 I will have to UNDO that soon as the coating has cracked and filliform corossion is visible under the coating as bird poop, were I in you shoes new rims or paint, your choice dealers bill. my .02$
}

(Message edited by oldog on November 03, 2008)
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Buellnuts
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I wouldn't worrie about powdercoating a Cast aluminum wheel but would never coat a Spun or machined aluminum wheel.

My2sense
Bob
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Oldog
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 07:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I did they flex too much and the coating cracks it also cracks from the pressure that the no mar tire changer applies to the rim to lock it for install

the price of education
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Ustorque
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

bump
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