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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through December 06, 2003 » Building 88" S1. Input requested. « Previous Next »

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Rick
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'm taking advantage of the 2nd engine failure in 20,000 miles to build an 88 incher in my 97 S1. I have a good idea of what parts I want to use, but I would like to hear from others who have done the same, or have knowledge of what works best. I'm currently in the planning and parts buying phase,
So here's my plan:

Starting with the lower end:
1. Carillo rods and new bearings
(should I change the flywheels or keep the stock 97's) I hear the newer engines used lighter flywheels. How about S&S flywheels?
2. Cams-whatever Nallin suggests
3. Millennium Technologies cylinders with forged pistons (Nallin)
4. New Thunderstorm stage 2heads from Nallin
5. Oil cooler

Already have:

Mikuni HSR42
American Sport Bike 3 Qt aluminum oil tank
Force Winder intake
Buell race pipe and ignition module

Anything else?

Thanks for any constructive replys.

Rick 97 S1 (in parts)
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V2win
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rick,
I used a 2001 stock flywheel assy. I dont rev over 7k so I decided there was no need to go with aftermarket rods.
Other items:
Barnett clutch
Crane ignition
SE cams 536
Cometic head and base gaskets.
Nallin pistons and head work.
Millennium jugs
42 Mikuni
etc,etc.

One area that caused some problems was the engine cases. They were not completely flat where they join at the cylinder base on the front. The stock gaskets sealed this area ok, but the shim base gaskets in the original Cometic kit did not and I had to remove the jugs and put in special Cometic gaskets that were thicker and they sealed ok. So before you reassemble the cases be sure they are flat and square.
As with any complete engine rebuild, tuning of the engine becomes critical. Find yourself a reliable, experienced, tuner with a dyno if you want to get it right the first time. Otherwise be prepared to spend considerable time in this area.

I have put on almost 20,000 miles on the 88" now with no problems.
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The new lighter flywheels are pretty good. You'll likely want an adjustable/selectable curve ignition module like the Dyna 2000. You'll want to match your exhaust to the cams. Not knowing if you will be after peak HP or optimum midrange or a compromise between the two it's hard to say what else you might need to consider. An 88" engine tuned for peak HP might be able to take advantage of even more carburetor than the HSR42. Tell the experts what you want in terms of power delivery and let them advise you on the various alternatives to achieve the desired result.

Good luck and keep us informed.
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Kcbill
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What is your goal in horse power? Do you want to run pump gas? What is your main intent as an 88"? Those questions will decide the rest. I run pump gas and as John does I ride mine every where. I am running S&S heads with 2" intake valves. With Nallins research they are getting big numbers out of thunder storm and xb heads. But that is going to be the top of the line head. I run stock 2k fly wheels because I don't run over 7000 rpms. With 536 cams your not going to make power over that any way. If you go 600 lift or over you probably don't want that as a travel any where motor. To hard on the valve train. Exhaust needs to be designed to the motor also. Brian can direct you on all of this. I run a 45 mikuni. If you run S&S heads your carb is going to be in to the frame. Stay with Buell heads and save your self some trouble.
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Hobanbrothers
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You can always shave your flywheels to lighten, just something to think about? Stock rods hold up pretty well as long as they are notpushed too hard and can be rebuilt a couple of times.

You may want to think about XB heads, they really work well and can be adapted quite easily, for that matter, try the XB rocker boxes as then you get a better breathing system and much fewer possibilities of oil issues. The XB heads allow you to get much better flow without going to exotic valves and large diameters.

You can run some cams that really help get the best mid-range (what we call low end in our racing 3,500-5,000 RPM) and I recommend sticking with the 7mm valves (there is a better exh valve available though)as they are a TON lighter which improves your RPM's in both quicker rev's and the ability to go higher, although there is no need to with this kit as it rocks right from the get go! I am sure you will be quite impressed with that set up, it really works!
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Rick
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks for the responses. I have had two connecting rod failures in 20,000 miles. That's the reason I'm switching to Carrillo rods. They are expensive ($645 for the set) but if they last it will be money well spent. I have never (and don't intend to) reved the engine past about 6500 rpm, and then only occasionally, when accelerating onto the freeway. The first rod failure was the forward rod bearing race deteriorated at 10,000 miles, sending metal throughout the engine. The second was at 20,000 when I started finding metal in the oil filter and oil. I tore it apart and found the big end of the rods had gone out of round and the wristpin was hammering the piston to the point that the wristpin keeper was about to fall out. The wristpin bushing in the rear rod was also galled pretty bad. The mechanic claims the damage was caused from over-reving the engine, which I believe, but since I'm the only person that rides the bike and I have never even hit the rev limiter since the rebuild, I just don't know. Anyway, my goal now is to get rid of the Harley parts and go with quality after market stuff. My goal for the engine is simply a strong running, reliable engine, with gobs of mid range, I can run on pump gas. I don't race the bike, I just use it for what it was built for, sportriding on twisty roads. I have heard that the XB heads are better correct some of the breather problems, but I'm not sure if they will work on the older carburated engine due to fuel injection possibly mounting differently than the carb. I have a Compufire programable ignition module, programable rev limit and advance, but I never used it since I put the race module on with the race pipe. Is the Dyna a better unit? As far as the flywheels are concerned, I have heard that in the later engines the flywhhels are about three pounds lighter. I'm not sure if it's worth the money though to buy a set. I will though if the experts here fill it will be better. I really don't want to do this again.

Thanks again
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Hobanbrothers
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I would wonder if there is a oilling problem to the lower end. Your issues all seem to lead me to that and by replacing rods alone may only give you another 10,000 miles. The later flywheels are 2 lbs. (I believe pressed together ones are 3 lbs, but then you have other issues) and you can get that out of yours, I am just concerned about your pinion oil gallary, do you still have the pieces and parts to reconstruct crime scene? Just curious...

I really like what lightening the flywheels does, especially with the 88's, just blip it and hang on!

XB head will work, FI or carb, XL or Buell, we are waiting on a new set of XL heads to see if they are the easier to adapt to your bike. They will take out some of the machining that needs to be done to XB's Should know in a couple of weeks, but XB's will work, we have done it a dozen times, front motor mts are slightly different & oil breather can be machined.
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Dawg
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I run a Zippers 88" kit in my 1999 X-1 and love it. Throttle body was bored by BC Gerolomy, Pro Series exhaust, Power- Commander, velocity stack on the intake which I wouldn't recomend for the street but otherwise everything works great. It runs 10.7 sec quarter miles, and on the return road at 60mph in 3rd a crack of the throttle plants it back on the wheelie bars while lifting the front wheel up. There are lots of options just go with whoever you feel the most comfortable dealing with.
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Rick
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks again. Hoban, I forgot to mention that I replaced the stock crank pin with an S&S when I rebuilt it the first time. The S&S has an extra oiling hole (which I'm sure you already knew. I also added a Zippers windage tray and upgraded to the late style oil pump. I was kind of thinking the same thing as you but I don't see any obvious signs of oil starvation, but then maybe I not looking for the right things. I'm wondering if maybe the rods were out-of-round where they were installed. The dealer tells me the damage is from the engine being over reved; but I know the engine has never even hit the rev limiter. I broke it in by the Buell book and have always been very conscious of not reving it to high. I usually run it in the mid range but I do use engine braking when sport riding. Maybe that did it. As far as lightening the flywheels I wouldn't have a clue who could do it. It sounds like something one would need some knowledge to do, ie, where to cut it, how much to take off, rebalance, etc. Bawg are you in the Sacramento area? I think B.C. Gerolomy is in the Sac area isn't it? By the way, I've posted this twice and it doesn't show up...grrr
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Rick
Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Update: I received the connecting rods from Carrillo. Very nice. I have the engine crated and am shipping it off to Nallin tomorrow for: Stage 2 XB heads, Case boring for 88" Millennium barrels and forged pistons, new cams and a billet front motor mount. Hmmmmmm, what else?

Rick 97 S1
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Vr1203
Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 02:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rick, BEFORE you send your crankcase , E-mail me for potential problems .
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