| Author | Message | ||||||||||||
     Cityxslicker |
Buell 1125R, never advertised, out of stock. 3 more on order. Buell 1125CR, not advertised, I expect it to disappear this weekend. (the track experience I had at Laguna was amazing) For me its a passion and excitement that no ad will ever bring. Word of mouth is huge. Most of the Buells I sell are from personal meeting with people when I am out RIDING. Most have never heard of BUELL. They come into the shop to see for themselves. I also have a network of other Buell riders that get it, and understand that it is nice to buy and refer a newcomer to someone else that gets it. I never talk price until after you have demo'd. There is no value in it to either party. If the bike isnt your style, your excitement, your answer to what every other bike isnt, then it really doesnt matter what the price is. Our prices arent carved in stone, but if its not your ride , then it doesnt matter. This is supposed to be FUN, this is for most part a luxury item. You are not buying a washing machine from me, so lets not treat it like one. | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
YOU ARE THE PROBLEM HUH??? THe potential customer is the problem??? You are obviesly not a salesman. If you are, keep that mentality and let me know how that turns out for you. When you find a different source to sell to other then the customer let the world know. Free market, consumer knowledge, this is what rules today. Better get used to it, that is the future consumer and those who don't understand that business model will fail. Want to know who I think iscurrently the best dealership for parts right now? Try American Sport Bike Buy your stuff online, don't pay the overhead of a dealership floor and get questions answered through email from a guy who knows what he is talking about. How cool would it be if you could order your new bike from the dealership. That is essentially what you are doing when you purchase from a sponor here that is not local to you. Only thing is you are cutting out teh overhead and other expenses that and NO VALUE to your bike or purchase. | ||||||||||||
| Odinbueller |
"Thanks to that attitude, Buell has no replacement for my Cyclone and dealers think I'll pay $10k out the door for an XB9SX or a thousand or two more for an XB12Scg to get a low seat. They forget that there's a big market out there beyond their dealership's doors, and I can buy a BMW 800 twin for the same $10k OTD and be able to get parts for it for decades." Some dealers, yes, do need to look beyond the front door. But if Buell doesn't make the bike you want in the XB9SX or the XB12Scg, what are the dealers to do? There are things that can be done to any XB model to fit the bike to you as closely as possible. Perhaps not perfectly, but we'd do the best with what we have to work with. I agree (and am disheartened) that there are quite a few sub-par dealerships out there. But we try hard, damn hard to give every customer the best value for what they are purchasing, either H-D or Buell. Now I'll be the first to admit that were are far from perfect, and have made our fair share of mistakes. But when one of these all encompassing anti-dealership threads shows up, it just sickens me. I try not to take it personally, but this is my bread & butter, and that I take personally. | ||||||||||||
| Cityxslicker |
ISBN 978-1-884313-74-5 Whitehorse Press 25 Years of Buell. There is some very interesting information about how Buell operated in the beginning without a dealer network. I dont think it would be the company it is today with out the financial support of H-D and the Dealer network that HD brings to the table. I have no doubt Erik would still be building great feats of motorcycle engineering, I just dont know how many of us would have got to enjoy it without the Dealers. | ||||||||||||
| Court |
>>>>and damn near killed the Motor Company Thus resulting in something like 67 quarters of progressively increasing earnings and one of the most amazing financial success stories in American business. I want the best deal from the dealer I am dealing with and I want it to be good for both me AND the dealer. I can buy a bike anywhere . . . I can't take my bike from New York City to Des Moines for service. I want my local dealer alive and healthy. | ||||||||||||
| Xl1200r |
I can't take my bike from New York City to Des Moines for service. I want my local dealer alive and healthy. This is more what I was getting at. Jos - my wording may have been on the harsh side, but I still think your logic is flawed. You can't expect to buy a bike at a place for the lowest possible price, and then expect the local guy to offer top notch service after the sale - keeping the sale from him keeps that revenue out of his pocket. | ||||||||||||
| Court |
Submitted without comment . . fair to say that Honda is down FIVE TIMES as much as Harley at the moment?
P.S. - By the way . . I realize that information and the numbers are meaningless, I'm just showing how people can cite about anything they want. I just bought more Morgan-Stanley . . .what do I know. . . . .  | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
Well, I bought my first bike online, no dealer needed. I got my own service manual, and for work I cannot handle I use either the Service Department of the dealership or a local independent guy that is very resonable. I buy my clothing and would buy my parts online if I could. So why do I NEED to support a sales floor, salesman, sales manager, local parts counter guy, heat, electric, water for the building??? Fact is, I don't. Now, that being said, everyone is different. Some people want a salesman, a place to hang out and look at stuff, and whatever other stuff people do in a dealership. I don't need that stuff. I like to ride my bike, not ride to a dealership and talk about riding my bike. I like to get a good value for my money. I don't care to pay for things I don't need. SO if there was an option to buy a NEW bike and not have to pay for the fluff, I would be all over that. If they had just a Harley/Buell service shop, I would go there assuming the price was right. It is just the sales model I prefer. So do many other people. Where can you learn more about a buell, The local shop, or Badweatherbikers.com??? So why do I need the salesman? | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
P.S. Don't forget, salesman like DaveS made many sales with the relationships and trust he built online. I would bet he sold more stuff over the phone and to online customers through badweb then the ones that walked into the store. | ||||||||||||
| Chellem |
To Koz's point, the clothing we sell in our store, and we do have a pretty good selection if I do say so myself, I'm going to estimate that 80-85% of what we sell, we sell online. If we did not have that outlet of sales, we would NOT be able to support the selection we have. Does that mean they don't need a dealer? Or a human? No. We still employ humans, we still need to warm and cool them, and they still need light to see. So online or not, overhead still exists. On occasion, people have emailed or called with questions, and that also requires a human interaction. Here's where he loses me. Everyone wants to be treated better, to have the employees be good, customer-oriented, and knowledgeable. The reason that there is such a disparity among those prices advertised online is just that. First, those were prices for '08s, and the pricing for leftovers is pretty much whatever each dealer can get. It's a leftover, and focus is shifted to selling the newer models. But like it or not, every dealer has different overhead, and different costs, and different investments in facility, employees, etc. MSRP is the suggested price. It's the price that Buell corporate has decided offers both a fair value to customers and enough (?) profit margin to the dealer. So that should be the price all dealers sell at, right? Of course, they can't FORCE each dealer to charge that. Does that mean that the dealers who try to get MSRP are somehow "screwing" people more than the discounters? Do the discounters invest in their employee training, service department, even inventory? Someone is definitely getting screwed, I'm just not so sure it's the way customers think. Dealers in NY and dealers in Bumble-nowhere, midwest, have the same profit potential. But everything here costs more. Does that mean we're screwing the customers because we try to cover our higher costs? I hope not. And, for the record, those dealers who think they can make less money on the bikes and operate on a lean profit margin are about to find out the importance of having a bit of reserve in the bank. (That's just my opinion, BTW, and I'm not just talking about harley dealers. I'm talking about all retailers in this new and evolving economy.) ->ChelleM | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
ChelleM - I bought my copy of 25 Years of Buell from you... online! With the invention of the internet almost every dealer does have the same potiential for profit. It is all about how ytou want to do business. If I could have a dealership, Buell only to start, I would put it in some small rural location (cheap land and taxes) and have a basic wharehouse. (East Troy would work well) Spend my "overhead" budget on advertisement in places like Badweb and in select magazines. I would hold one/two events a year for customers (think about the J&P cycle open house). No extravigant sales floor, no service department. Customers will shop the local stores, even demo ride their bikes, then buy from the source with the lowest price. Talk about a cold relationship with other dealers? Probably, but since when is it my responsibility to make up for their poor business model? If my customer needs service, they can go to any local shop and have their techs work on the bike. Most Buell guys do it themselves anyway. Buell guys don't spend near the amount of money on chrome, leathers, and feathers like the Harley riders do. If I have to take a trade I would sell it off the same way or to a local dealer just like current HD shops do. Dealers don't give much for trades on bikes anyway. The most important things I need to be able to do are: 1. lowest price - Period! 2. best selection of extras (all available clothing and parts in my my online store including select aftermarket products) 3. smallest amount of overhead possible 4. best visibility so people think Buell = Koz5150's Buell dealership. Sound crazy? Well I am sure HD would never allow it because it doesn't improve overall total Buell sales, it just takes the business from other dealerships. I bet I would do alright though. I mean how different is that from what every sponsor here, on cycletrader, ebay, or magazine add is trying to do? I just would want to be the best at it. | ||||||||||||
| Ft_bstrd |
Kos, I figured you for an analytical type. Unfortunately, making a purchase for a car, home, bike, boat, etc. can be viewed two ways: as a commodity transaction or as a relationship transaction. Analytical types tend to view everything as primarily a commodity transaction regardless of the side of the good. Buying a bag of chips has the same buying process as buying a personal water craft. You simply find the most convenient way to purchase said good as inexpensively as possible. You have already done ALL the research. You already know what you want. You already know what you want to pay. You simply need an outlet to provide the product. Any relationship that comes from the transaction are completely coincidental and add virtually nothing to the experience or the value proposition. Profit or loss of the seller are completely coincidental. Those who view the transaction as a commodity transaction do not view the purchase as one of many. Each purchase is compartmentalized from the other with no residual impact being carried over from the last transaction. Commodity buyers are likely to buy the same brand from sever different locations depending on the "deal" or may never buy the same make twice. The other type of sale, the relationship sale, has a different type of buyer. This person may have also done much of the research about the product, know all the specs, know what the going price is, and knows where they can purchase the item. The difference here is that this buyer places a high degree of emphasis on the ongoing relationship with the source of the item, the dealer. For the relationship buyer, lowest price isn't the measure of a "good deal". Relationship buyers are willing to leave a little money on the table as a down payment on ongoing good will with the dealership. Relationship buyers tend to want to develop as deep a relationship with the personnel at the dealer as possible. Relationship buyers tend to seek to refer others to these relationships. The expectation is that the good will garnered will provide for them additional non-cost benefits. These benefits include, better pricing, first call and right of refusal on new models, better service turn-around, parts discounts, accessories discounts, special orders, first in line for recalls, no questions asked warranty work, etc. None of these attributes are direct components to the deal but are part of the good will extended by the dealer to the buyer with whom the dealer expects to have an ongoing relationship. I am very much a relationship buyer. I WANT to complete a sale with a dealer who provides resources and sales talent to me. I always get the name of my sales person, so that if I chose to buy from that dealer they can get credit. Even if I spent just a few minutes with them, I want to pay for their time. I usually spend much more than just a few minutes, though. I suspect, Kos, that you are a commodity buyer. What's funny is that Chad Hargis and I deal with the same dealer. Chad is half and half. He bought his bike 600 miles away from a place he NEVER wanted to build any relationship. It was a commodity transaction. He has worked to build a relationship with the local dealer to an extent. I would say, though, that he hasn't worked to build the same relationship I have. I worked to learn who all the service folks, parts folks, and Buell sales folks were at the local dealer. I work to refer them business. If I am there and there is someone interested in Buells, I work to tell them my positive experiences and sell the bike for the dealership. I continually send positive response to Buell HO in response to what I see as positive experiences from my dealer. I buy clothing while I am in there. EVERY time I am in there. I send Kudos emails to the owner when the service department does a good job. They will be coming onto BW as a sponsor soon. As a result, I get preferential scheduling with the service department. I get while you wait service if possible. I get first crack at recall kits. I get my bike when they tell me I will get it. I lost a buckle on my Buell tank bag and needed it for a trip. Instead of saying "we'll order you one" and it not being available, they took my part off the one in stock and ordered a replacement. I get no questions asked warranty service. I have probably had $2500 worth of service work complete under warranty with no hassle at all. Chad hasn't had quite as good a result from them. Be careful, commodity buyers, in what you wish for. You might just get it. Guaranteeing that you get the absolute lowest price possible may not leave enough money on the table for either good service or a dealership. As a guy in sales, I hate it when I spend time to work with someone, they take my ideas and abilities, and then give the business to someone who's only effort was in providing the product for a few dollars less in price. That expertise, cost something. It wasn't free. | ||||||||||||
| 2008xb12scg |
The biggest reason people need a dealer is to see and touch the product. Cars have been sold online for years. But there's still dealers. Dealers will sell you a bike online now. Damn it! Told myself to stay out of this one. | ||||||||||||
| Chellem |
No extravigant sales floor, no service department. Wow. that's a great business model. Short term. At some point, though, if you undercut every other dealership in the area, they will go out of business. Then, people are going to be pissed off that they have a great buell that they paid nothing for, and have NO PLACE TO SERVICE IT. Then, they're going to get on the BadWeb, and complain about how you don't treat your customers right, and don't have enough merchandise, and don't have any salespeople who know as much as the customers. The reason, the VERY reason, that H-D would never allow that is because EVERYONE would do it if they could get away with it. But it's only a short-term plan. If everyone did it, the model fails. And there are dealers right now who use a variation of that plan. Everyone likes them when they buy the bike, and then hates them as soon as anything bad happens. Then, the customers who are already pissed at them come, guess where? Here. And they expect really cheap prices, because that's what they're used to, and they expect to be treated like kings, because we have this nice store. But they've done nothing to support this nice store. And did I mention they're already mad that they had to come here for service because their dealership was 8 weeks out because they only bother with ONE PDI tech? We do the best we can, but if EVERY dealer followed your plan, eventually, people would just stop buying the product, cheap or no. So I think you'd have a very big warehouse with low overhead and NO money coming in. ->ChelleM | ||||||||||||
| Court |
I guess I am the anomaly. I don't need a motorcycle, it's not a necessity. But I want one and understand it's purely recreational. It's a lot like golf (I play little) in that it's one of the ways I spend my recreational time. I want the dealer, the friendly faces, the free coffee, the selection of stuff to buy while I wander around. If I were a pure "commodity" buyer I'd likely buy one of those mail order Royal Enfields from Madras, India that I keep seeing on the streets of Gotham. I want the dealer to make money and be there when I need them. There is room for improvements in the Buell dealer model, but I darn sure want to advance the experience, not eliminate it. | ||||||||||||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think the difference is also in seeing the dealer as the "enemy" and anything that the dealer makes as getting "screwed". I never pay MSRP, but I don't get rock bottom either. I prefer to get volume pricing from my dealer with the expectation that when I buy from them that I will be back to buy another and another. That colors how the dealer treats me with every purchase. It works both ways. If you are trying to squeeze every dollar of profit out of every purchase to get rock bottom, the dealer is going to be working to get every single dollar out of every transaction to make up the difference. I know for a fact that my dealer ate costs that they didn't have to simply because I don't nickel and dime them to death. | ||||||||||||
| Buellgrrrl |
Well, if I follow the "reward the dealer with the best service with a new bike purchase, regardless of price" argument, Buell gets knocked right off my short list. The best Buell dealers I've seen (Donahue, St.Croix, and Appleton when Dave was there) gave decent but not outstanding service, about equal to the two local BMW dealers. But I get outstanding service from two BMW dealers located 40 and 100 miles away- Moon and Judson. Doesn't matter that I've never bought a new bike from them- they still stock parts for my quarter century old BMWs. Meanwhile, HD is having trouble supplying common parts like stators and belts for current model bikes. I want to keep Moon and Judson in business, so this winter I may give them some "liquidity" in return for a new bike. I don't feel that kind of indebtitness to any Buell dealer. | ||||||||||||
| Crusty |
Hey Court; did you ride through Vermont? | ||||||||||||
| Damnut |
Well Ft Bstrd you are a lucky one. I bought my bike at a local dealer, did NOT get a break in price but STILL get treated like shit by some of the employees there because I do NOT own a HD. Don't think for a minute that every case is like your's. I am now like Koz. Screw the local dealership if I can. I still go there for oil and small parts but if I need a high dollar item, my local dealership is the LAST place I check. Good Buell dealerships are few and far between. | ||||||||||||
| Ft_bstrd |
Buellgrrrl, You live in the friggin boonies. Your dealer is shit. What do you want? SELL ALL YOUR BUELLS AND NEVER BUY ANYTHING BUT BMW. Then we won't have to hear about your experiences any more. | ||||||||||||
| Damnut |
I don't live in the boonies...... What's my excuse? | ||||||||||||
| Buellgrrrl |
Boonies? This is the 15th largest metro area in the country with a population of three million. | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
So, what have we learned? 1. Not all dealers sell brand new bikes for the same price. 2. Paying more money at one dealership does not gaurantee good service or treatment in the future. 3. There is no consistant value that can be measured for paying more for a bike at any given dealership. 4. Consumers are expected to "work" for the best deal becuase that is the way it has always been. Dealers are expected to compete with each other for business. 5. Paying more at a dealership from a salesman does not mean he will be there for you as long as you own the bike. (DaveS, I will always miss having you in Appleton, I can honestly say I did buy more shirts and stuff when you were around. Now that Andy is gone, I don't know who to talk to. The dealership is just the place I buy parts since I can't get them direct online) 6. Different customers prefer different methods of purchase. 7. Buellgrrrl is still looking for a replacement for the M2 (in my opinion Buell doesn't have one in it's current lineup at any price). The M2 was the last great Buell with the garage mechanic in mind. FI sucks! 8. Chellm (who's husband's Grey and Orange S3 is the best Buell colors ever) doesn't care much for my sales model, however would be willing to sell any Buell product to anyone here reguardless of the customers location or the impact of sales to the customer's local dealership. 9. Court - who I don't always agree with, but share a passion for Buells with, may have different ideas, but writes a pretty good book. (I am halfway done reading my signed copy of it) So is my book worth more since it has 4 more words in it then the one sold anywhere else? 10. FT_BSTRD - I am an analytical type. I do my own research, formulate my own decisions, and would be willing to put my Buell knowledge up against that of most dealership staff. However, I do understand the value of good customer service for a well rounded dealership. The problem is, when looking at the customer to dealer relationship a cheap price and my own education of the product will ALWAYS be prefered over a higher price and depending on the salesman for knowledge and judgement, and I am not the only one like that. Why do you think Erik choose to "fix" the Barton engine himself rather then rely on the slower Yamaha. Because the salesman told him? Ironic the type of customer that is drawn to a Buell is a lot like Erik himself. The Buell image, to me, says "Screw HD, this is what the sportster should have become long ago". And if you ask any dealership guy the will tell you that sportster owners are save your money and do it yourself kinda guys. Kinda like Buell owners (Message edited by koz5150 on October 11, 2008) | ||||||||||||
| Jramsey |
Koz Do you dicker/bicker the price with the checkers at WAL-MART. | ||||||||||||
| Jramsey |
So you don't shop at Wal Mart. Neither do I. | ||||||||||||
| Koz5150 |
Nope, I just expect the price to be the same no matter which store I go in (even though I know that doesn't happen at Wal-mart, prices differ regionally, but I hate Wal-mart) | ||||||||||||
| Chellem |
8. Chellm (who's husband's Grey and Orange S3 is the best Buell colors ever) doesn't care much for my sales model, however would be willing to sell any Buell product to anyone here reguardless of the customers location or the impact of sales to the customer's local dealership. A somewhat true summary. But I never advertised being the cheapest. Ever. We may attempt to be one of the best - an ongoing battle - but never the cheapest. If I followed your model, I would have no autographed copies of any Buell books, no T-Shirts, no hats, no patches, no jackets, no nothing. That's all out. Too expensive to stock. I choose to stock it, other dealers don't, so I (hopefully) get the business. At no point to I try to price them out of existence. I simply offer my product at a reasonable rate with easy access online. And BTW, why is it OK for Walmart to price things differently regionally, but not us? And also BTW, the price of something can NEVER be the same no matter which store you go into, unless EVERYONE charges the high price. If everyone has to default to the lowest price, then those whose rent is double the cheapies will just go out of business. THEN the thread turns to "I have to drive too far..." I shop at Walmart - very infrequently - when the quality of whatever I'm buying doesn't matter and I have some time to kill waiting in the checkout lines. But hey - I'll have saved $.88. When quality matters, the cheapest price actually scares me a little bit. "We can sell you this dresser for only $29.99!" "Well, sir, I'd rather you put a little more than $30 worth of wood in that. So I think I'll keep looking." ->ChelleM | ||||||||||||
| Ft_bstrd |
What about pricing for fluctuations in buyer demand? Economics 101, market equilibrium pricing is reached when demand exactly equals supply at a given price. If price is kept constant, supply may exceed demand providing excess stock. If price is below equilibrium, the dealer creates a shortage of profit. Some dealers are willing to hold surplus stock for a longer period of time. The local BMW/Ducati dealership doesn't discount anything. You will pay the highest price possible. Their belief is that because they are the only place in town to buy BMW and Ducati bike that there will always be someone who will pay that price. There is no place on the planet where goods are always the same price ALL the time. Nor should there be. Another way to look at it. Would you take the same wages for what you do as the exact same job for someone who works in Topeka, KS or Joplin, MO? Would someone in NYC or LA? You are a product. Why would you not be priced the same regardless of where you are located? Shouldn't every worker have the same "overhead expense"? As an buyer (employer), I'm not really interested in paying your overhead. If I can find a product (employee) at a lower price, I will fire you and hire that person. | ||||||||||||
| Court |
Seems to me that you have neglected to mention that you are the ONLY dealer selling the HIGHLY UNAUTHORIZED t-shirt collection. Of course . . . I could be wrong. I am on my way to Liberty to shop this morning so you'd better be dropping those prices or I'l ride to Kentucky! | ||||||||||||
| Cityxslicker |
How do you get a Buell without a Dealership?!? ASK Mexico! They have no authorized Buell dealership in that entire country. Yes they have Harley shops, but they are not Buell dealers. So you have this vast desert play ground down south, just across the border, perfect for playing on the likes of the ULY (or modified CityX) And no way to get parts, service, gear or a tshirt. Show me your business model works in Mexico. Its a blank sheet of paper to work on. No existing dealers with an 'antagonistic' view to the brand. no ancient left over inventory, and a parts service inventory that you get to build from the ground up. Prove that buying one in on country over the internet is better than the network we have here. You only say it cant be done because no body has tried it.... Heres your chance. BUELLS in MEXICO NOW  Besides, I will be on vacation there in January, I would like a Buell Cabo T-shirt  |
